 Book Club: Runner Havens |
  |
 Oct 25 2007, 02:37 PM
Post
#51
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf  Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486  |
Speculation, but maybe the point is that Seattle is unique in that it is actually one of the very few (if not only) Sixth World cities that is truly a monoculture, where pretty much every single variation of the world's cultural, racial, philosophical, or any other 'ial' aspect of society is present in some way, shape or form. Lots of cities, even metroplexes can lay claim to a wide cultural spectrum, but not too many other cities (if really any) can truly say that every aspect of society is represented. |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
Oct 25 2007, 03:06 PM
Post
#52
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
I'm not sure if that's what people mean when they say they wanted "the feel" of the city, but personaly, my biggest complaint is that you have a lot of information about politics, gangs, and so on but except for a few paragraphs at the beginning you don't know what the city looks, smells, or feels like.
No pictures, no descriptions, nothing to let you know what does a 2070 street look like. But to be fair, I haven't seen that in any previous books either. |
|
|
|
|
Oct 25 2007, 03:41 PM
Post
#53
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Districts has some more info along those lines, though there wasn't really enough wordcount to address everything we would have liked.
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 25 2007, 04:10 PM
Post
#54
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
...There are still unions in the 2070s?
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 25 2007, 04:27 PM
Post
#55
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Maybe, maybe not. If there aren't, chances are something has replaced them as an outlet for the blue-collar folks. Maybe policlubs, maybe even more bizarre and exotic gathering groups. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 25 2007, 04:28 PM
Post
#56
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
"fraternal organizations," p.101
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 25 2007, 06:27 PM
Post
#57
|
|||||
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
The problem here is that no city is a global monoculture. Hong Kong, to use the closest example, is hardly part of a global monoculture-- the city stands out, and you get the feel of the city, from the smelliest dock to the height of corporate luxury. It doesn't take much to add the feel of a city. As I said before, simply *mentioning* the Space Needle in the opening pages would have done a lot for conveying the atmosphere. You don't need more than a passing sentence on it. In a book about core settings, you want details on the city, not a monoculture stripped of any identifying markers. That bit could be better handled (and was, to a certain extent) in the Build-your-own-haven section. The districts section, with the notable exception of the Ork Underground, is finally a glance into Seattle. However, it still tends towards: "This is an example of Blue-Collar hell, this is an example of a Barrens", etc. There's less focus on the city, and more focus on what the various parts of a general city are like. Also, it falls into the "list of runs" trap. The Ork Underground is my pet peeve. There are lots of ways this could have been tied into a unique view of Seattle. Heck, the Ork Underground is supposed to be exclusive to Seattle. Instead, we get a dissertation on orcish culture. It's already been commented on how the Orxploitation writers also had a heavy influence in that section, so I don't need to say much about personal agendas.
That's not that much different than Seattle today. Except it's still a melting pot, and not a McCity. We can lay claim to having influences from just about everywhere in the globe. (We have a Nepalese restaurant on one of the busiest streets, for crying out loud!) By the monoculture I think DE is referring to, is the grinding, heavy, commercial hell that most 6th worlders live in. Which is fine and worthy material, but it doesn't belong in a book about core settings. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Oct 25 2007, 06:34 PM
Post
#58
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
No, actually. The use of Or'zet can be blamed on having a couple Orxploitation lovers as writers, but I never said either of us wrote that particular section. Re: Run-heavy -> It's a document by shadowrunners, for shadowrunners, in a book called Runner Havens. It focuses on things that interest shadowrunners. Foders it is not. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 25 2007, 08:05 PM
Post
#59
|
|||
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Never said it was. What I should clarify, however, is that it's not so much atmosphere as "Lists of kewl stuff you can do as runs in this type of environment." Which, again, belongs firmly in the Build-a-City section. Anyways: Magic Spots, Body Alteration, Decker Spots, Getting the Gear: All these could be transplanted quite easily into another city, with minimal white-out. I couldn't help but notice the Cathode Glow, which IIRC is the one from "On the Run". That one still angers me, albeit for non-content reasons. Targets: The ACHE. OK, that was funny ;). And it did a nice job of tying in Seattle with backhistory and the material. The rest of the stuff is decent, but again, it's transplantable, and really amounts to a list of runs. The ACHE isn't. To use HK again as an example, there isn't much in the way of generic run lists. There's discussion on targets, runs unique to HK, and so on and so forth. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 25 2007, 09:07 PM
Post
#60
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Cain, I honestly can't figure you out. Some of those spots you glossed over have been characteristic to Seattle since first edition.
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 25 2007, 09:55 PM
Post
#61
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 640 Joined: 8-October 07 Member No.: 13,611 |
I remember reading a sourcebook that mentions that Seattle is completely unlike any city in the mainland UCAS, and even unique among PacRim cities. I figure that seems, especially since the chapter is written as an intro for out-of-towners, kind of important to have mentioned. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 25 2007, 10:11 PM
Post
#62
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
True, but my point is that maybe it is taken to the extreme in the Sixth World, to the point where Seattle is the only fully monocultural city, with (not necessarily equal) representatives from pretty much every world culture. If you look at Seattle in that light, as a truly unique cultural locale, the one place where 'runners actually find an abundance of work as opposed to what's available to the smaller 'runner communities in other cities. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 25 2007, 11:05 PM
Post
#63
|
|||||
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Such as?
That's still not a monoculture, at least as I understand the term. If anything, you've described a multicultural area. When I hear the term "Monoculture", I picture the cyberpunk trope of nameless, faceless masses, cogs in a machine. They're fed the same, clothed the same, watch the same shows on TV, and generally get the same tranquilizing bread and circuses. AH described some of this with the ACHE, which I thought was ingenious, if a bit far-fetched. Where shadowrunners thrive is beneath all that, under the global monoculture. In the seedy little places where culture and brotherhood still matter, is where you find the runners. Where a unique culture teems in the shadows, encompassing many different areas of life. Seattle should have been presented as a unique city. Insteaad, it was used as the model for the McCulture. Which is fine; it just doesn't belong in a book about core settings. They could have beefed up the "Living on the Edge" section instead. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Oct 25 2007, 11:21 PM
Post
#64
|
|||
|
MechRigger Delux Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,151 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Hanger 18, WPAFB Member No.: 1,657 |
Seattle gave us Starbucks, and for that it should be THE McCity. That aside however, Seattle is the home to a multi-cultural bastion like all the West Coast cities are now, the thing that makes that unique is that all of the other cities in the 2070s are not that way anymore. Look at Portland, and San Fran, and <insert town name here>. The problem from that stance is that there is too much to write about. While I could say there was probably some better things to write up, there are also lots of older resources that haven't changed, thus I believe the writers needed to focus on what has, and not rehash. 2nd point... its Runner's Havens .. not core setting book #1. It looks at places where runners live and operate heavily. Just like the upcoming location books concentrate on fleshing out cities which live a different style from a runner's haven. As I see it, any of the upcoming settings books could be looked at as "core" settings with each of their 2 main city entries. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 25 2007, 11:29 PM
Post
#65
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
Things specific to Seattle I would've liked to see tied in:
The Bridge Trolls: Seattle currently has statues of bridge trolls (at least one) under neath several bridges. Would the Sixth World have cause these to come slightly alive? Would they appear at power centers? They're perhaps one of my favorite, if slightly out of the way, features of Seattle. The Library: Seattle currently has a great glass library which requires rock climbers to wash the windows. Though it's not going to be a necessarily important locale for runners unless they're looking for some common information, it's a point of civic pride. Even with the corporatization, I suspect it would be one landmark people would be up in arms to protect. Mt. St. Helens: I know it's not actually in Seattle and may well be part of Salish Shide, but the eruption in the 90s was so key to the growth of geological societies in the area. I'm certain it'd still be adding flavor. Perhaps a geological society would be a location that runs may intersect with. |
|
|
|
|
Oct 25 2007, 11:49 PM
Post
#66
|
|||||||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
The Alabaster Maiden springs to mind immediately.
Okay, we're looking at this from different perspective. The world monoculture is when you can go to almost anyplace and encounter the same experience-it's why hotels and airports look alike, being able to walk into a McDonalds from New York to Bangladesh that is immediately recognizable and familiar to anybody who's ever been to a McDonalds, it's when you boot up a random computer and see the familiar Windows logo and when you find most of the same stores in malls across America. It's a death of multiculturalism from the angle that every aspect that really defines the culture has been dissected, analyzed, cleaned up and assimilated into a package deal for your enjoyment-not just in this one place, but across the globe. It's about walking into an identical StufferShack in any country in the Sixth World, washing down the same krillcake with the same SoyCaf in any McHughs from Hong Kong to London, seeing the same fashions in the same stores in malls from Paris to Constantinople. When I talk about monoculture, I'm literally talking about the aspects of life that are universally shared by practically the entire Sixth World (or at least those guys not poking sticks into mud and pretending the Matrix doesn't exist). Airports, hotels, superhighways are superspaces; areas that are intermediate by design, never final destinations. They're designed to facilitate you from point A to point B with the minimum psychological damage and, Ghost willing, your luggage. They're soothing and bland and most of the time their idea of spicing things up is some art deco reject sculpture/mural/ode to massive industrial spaces. Hell, most big airports in the US have a bar copied directly from Cheers so people can get smashed in a friendly and familiar environment. That's monoculture. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Oct 25 2007, 11:55 PM
Post
#67
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Fair enough. You are quite right when you say that I am describing a 'multiculture'. I'm not too familiar with the concept of 'monoculture'. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 26 2007, 01:19 AM
Post
#68
|
|||||||||
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
AH did a better job of desscribing "Monoculture" than I did. It's not just one predominant culture, it's where the predominant culture has virtually stamped out any other of the cultures out there. A bad example of this is the USA and the Amerind tribes; there's lots of cultural knowledge that has been lost, for good. AH: What you say is all fine and good, but it doesn't belong in a Core setting. Like Bull said, Seattle was designed to have the serial numbers filed off and transplanted to Minneapolis. That'd be great for something like NAGRL, which is still one of myy favorite books. But it doesn't fit into a core location book. From the very opening-- the McCity reference-- we're being prepared to accept a generic sprawl, instead of a living, breathing, city.
Ahem. From the back flap:
Sorry, but it *is* a core setting book. And while it does an excellent job of introducing Hong Kong, it falls flat in introducing Seattle. |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Oct 26 2007, 01:24 AM
Post
#69
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
No, and I can say that because I helped write it and because you're misquoting Bull-again. Yes, you can file the serial numbers off, but it wasn't designed with that express purpose in mind. It was designed to give a go-to on Seattle, and that's what it does-how well you can choose to debate to your heart's content. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 26 2007, 01:34 AM
Post
#70
|
|||
|
Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Seriously? Where? Is this eastside, or downtown? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 26 2007, 01:37 AM
Post
#71
|
|||||||
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
I posted the quote on the first page of the thread, but I'll post it again With a highlight.
I did not misquote him. I stated, almost exactly, what he said here. The locations were designed to be malleable, to have their serial numbers filed off and transported elsewhere. Or at least Seattle was. That's great material for a Sprawl Sites type book, or a NAGRL. But not for a core setting book. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Oct 26 2007, 01:45 AM
Post
#72
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Malleable doesn't equal interchangeable in my book. You misquoted by taking what he said out of context. Heck, they were two different sentences
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 26 2007, 01:55 AM
Post
#73
|
|||
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
And what context is that? Let's look at what Bull had to say in response:
The problem here is that Hong Kong doesn't follow the same theme as Seattle. I think it was JWK who said he wanted to present Seattle as a punch-drunk boxer who had seen better days. That would have been wonderful! Instead, however, we're given a data mine in lieu of a core setting. And a data mine has its place, but not in a core setting. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 26 2007, 02:02 AM
Post
#74
|
|||
|
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
If that was the intention, then why not leave it off as just saying "This was one stated intention, I don't like that." Instead we've got a thread that's focusing solely on the intention of the writing, rather than the actual content. Which as I understood it, was the purpose of this review. I'm all for dissenting statements, but really this is a matter of personal taste (understandbly for you and many others). You can't really say that something is wrong becuase it's not the way you like it. That's the tone I'm getting. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 26 2007, 02:03 AM
Post
#75
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
You realize you're not supporting your point in the slightest? Shadowrun settings are meant to be dynamic. Gamemasters should have an easy time adapting them for their games, not just adapting their games to fit the given locations. Like Bull points out, you can file the serial numbers off, but that doesn't mean it was designed to be from the start-and he did not say as much. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 5th December 2025 - 08:20 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.