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> Dwarf-Ghoul-Adept(or mage), basically, he is all that and more
Stahlseele
post Oct 18 2007, 10:21 PM
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so, another thread in SR4 motivated me long enough to actually start this thread . . i did search and i did not find a similar thread . .

basically, the one big disadvantage of dwarves is their x2 running multiplier, which gets upped to 3 with being a ghoul somehow . .
ghoul-blindness is strictly physically . . so either one gets cyber eyes or just corrective surgery to restore his natural infra red vision and with the edge from SR3 Companion natural low light vision . . so you would have an adept(or mage) that starts off with astral perception, infra red and lowlight . . throw in a light system into natural eyes, and maybe plastic bone lacing and take a geas on the lost magic point and build in the bioware of scent glands to not make you smell like you're rotting on the insides . . and you actually have a dwarf that is better than before . . you still have 5 magic points left to spend on things like killing hands, with a natural +3 to strength that WILL hurt . . especially, if you say that the +2 power niveau from bone lacing does count . . only flare comp and vision mag 3 and you basically can see everything allways, all of the time . . being a dwarf means being small, being small means being lighter, being lighter means having to eat less metahuman meat . . and if you roll good enough on the ghoul willpower test you only lose one point of int and charisma each, which you can more or less ignore with exeptional attribute to intelligence and bonus attribute point to charisma . . and if you roll REALLY good you get another +1 to willpower, so the dwarf/ghoul gets a maximum of +2+3+3=+8 to attributes and only a -2 to attributes that is stopped by edges wisely chosen . . of course only if you do not botch your will-power roll . . which means you'd be a very good mage(well, aside from the -1 point of magic from the -1 to essence), make him an albino and he has an excuse for his white skin AND gets another +1 for willpower. . as an adept you get astral perception FOR FREE . . so you save 2 points that can go to something else . . and so on and so on and so on . .

Feel free to discuss, that's why this thread is here *g*
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 18 2007, 10:59 PM
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I'm not aware of any corrective surgery that will restore Ghoul-lost vision. Furthermore, Plastic bone lacing costs .5 Essence by itself, so 1.0 when installed in a Ghoul, which means if you want two Cybereyes (.2 Essence doubled to .4 for Ghoulness) you're looking at expensive and non-chargen-available grades of cyberware or a second lost point of Magic.

Add that to the high cost (minimum 40BP, 45 if you're going for a Full Mage) , and I don't really see it being a great build. There might be some kilometerage in dropping the Bone Lacing, but I don't have the time to run the numbers.

Edit: it would actually be a third lost point of Magic, since you lose one for being a Ghoul in the first place.

~J
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Stahlseele
post Oct 18 2007, 11:06 PM
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ahem *points at forum*
SR3 remember ? *g*
there's a reason why i started it here.
namely me not being nearly fluent enough in the SR4 rules working ^^
at the moment you pay +5 for dwarf, +10 for ghoul and +25 for adept so you end up at 40 points out of at least 115 or at most 123 points, if i remember the number of points correctly . .

as per rules there's no such thing as usual eye surgery aside from implanting things that you could put into cyber-eyes without essence loss . . you can install eye-ware without having to use the cyber eyes . . but if it is possible to do such a thing, then why should it NOT be possible to simply restore ones natural eye-sight?
as there's people who are icked out at the thought of having their freaking eyes removed and basically have a set of tri-d cameras hardwired into their brain *g*
yes, the bone lace would have to be at least alpha-grade, but when using the used parts rule you could have some used beta or even delta grade stuff in there . . just because YOU don't get it at chargen does not mean it can NOT be ripped out of SOMEONE else *g*
but that's probably at least a little bit dody, at worst pretty much raping the rules ^^
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 18 2007, 11:21 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele)
ahem *points at forum*
SR3 remember ? *g*

Um, yeah. I don't know if you read the SR4 forum, but if you do you may notice that I don't post there, and there's a reason for that.

QUOTE
at the moment you pay +5 for dwarf, +10 for ghoul and +25 for adept so you end up at 40 points out of at least 115 or at most 123 points, if i remember the number of points correctly . .

You did remember them correctly, which I know because those are the numbers I gave.

QUOTE
as per rules there's no such thing as usual eye surgery aside from implanting things that you could put into cyber-eyes without essence loss . . you can install eye-ware without having to use the cyber eyes . . but if it is possible to do such a thing, then why should it NOT be possible to simply restore ones natural eye-sight?

Because the meat eyes simply don't work anymore?

QUOTE
yes, the bone lace would have to be at least alpha-grade, but when using the used parts rule you could have some used beta or even delta grade stuff in there . . just because YOU don't get it at chargen does not mean it can NOT be ripped out of SOMEONE else *g*

Used deltaware counts as betaware—you can't get the delta bonus with used 'ware. Even with the bone lacing at alpha you end up with 1.2 points of Essence spent, and 1.1 if you get both Alpha.

~J
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Stahlseele
post Oct 18 2007, 11:28 PM
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hmm . . will have to tinker with that a little bit . . of course one can still go with just the eyes and the scent glands and leave everything else out of it and it's a viable built . . maybe get one of those digestive expansions later on and try to eat normal stuff again . . probably won't work though . . maybe chloroplast skin to hide that white skin-colour . .
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 18 2007, 11:35 PM
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Well, I'm not sure if it's worth it, but the obvious route to power is Dwarf (+1 Willpower) Albino (+1 Willpower) Bonus Attribute (+1 Willpower) (stack with Exceptional if your GM interprets the Otaku stats as indicating that you can spend more than 6 points in a stat) and the two bonus dice you get for chargen-Ghouling to get a ~7-9.5% chance of getting an additional point of Willpower…

No, not really worth it. Ghouls got pretty thoroughly shafted in SR3 rules.

~J
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Ancient History
post Oct 19 2007, 04:47 AM
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Now, now-everyone knows the best bet is to go for the gnome dewarf metavariant.
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 19 2007, 04:49 AM
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See, I'd try that if we were somewhere in the 30-40%, but adding another five build points just to get into the mid-teens doesn't seem like a good investment to me.

~J
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Herald of Verjig...
post Oct 19 2007, 10:02 AM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele)
basically, the one big disadvantage of dwarves is their x2 running multiplier,

Koborokuru
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Stahlseele
post Oct 19 2007, 10:07 AM
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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 18 2007, 05:21 PM)
basically, the one big disadvantage of dwarves is their x2 running multiplier,

Koborokuru

bless you O.o
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 19 2007, 10:31 AM
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Oh man, that's horrible. I thought you'd mixed up the spelling, but I looked it up, and yes, it's exactly as you say…

I don't know who was responsible for this, or if they're currently working for the-entity-formerly-known-as-FanPro (well, not quite), but just a tip: the word you wanted is korobokuru, or more properly romanized korobokkuru (or you could stick with koro-pok-guru). When you use a preexisting name, for the love of all that is sane in this universe do not transpose mora and then leave it that way to get into print.

Gah. If I didn't love this game so much I would despise it.

~J
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Stahlseele
post Oct 19 2007, 11:46 AM
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well, okay, i did look into that and this japanese meta variant gets a 3 running multiplier . .
but my main point was basically, that it is actually more or less good for a dwarf ADEPT to become a ghoul . . faster running, even more STR and body bonus and with a good willpower roll another plus on willpower . . and ghouls do STR+1M in unarmed combat . . and the blindness is more or less offset by astral perception . . or can be bought off with cyber-eyes or if you have a lenient GM corrective eye surgery . . maybe just cloned eyes of yourself . . and as an adept you save 2 power points you don't have to put into it . . essentially you lose 1 magic point, but you gain one power that COSTS 2 magic points . . and +3 on STR and +1 on power niveau of unarmed means you can match most big guys(orcs/trolls) in power at least later on . . with exeptional attribute in STR you actually get the same racial maximum as a troll does . . a +4 and to that added the +1 power niveau means you can actually start with a +5S damage in unarmed combat . . and with astral perception you can literally tear apart most critters/ghosts . .
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CyberKender
post Oct 19 2007, 08:23 PM
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Trying to give a ghoul back it's eyesight requires an explanation as to the specific cause of it's loss in the first place. If the loss is because the sight centers in the brain are changed, then fixing the eyes isn't really going to do any good. If it's because the eyes themselves cloud up, the retina's composition changes, or something like that, then it's doable. However, if you just try to correct what's there with 'clean' versions of the meat ones, then the disease is just going to reinfect them. Basically, you have to go with cybereyes.

Everything else is munchkinizing, imho. Especially as a starting character.

There is one serious effect that's missed here: Ghouls only see with astral sight, therefore you will always be dual-natured, even with cybereyes. Makes for an especially obvious target from astral space. That will really piss off your fellow runners when the sec mage grounds Manaball through you.
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 19 2007, 08:30 PM
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Grounding's out these days, but it's still pretty annoying when one of your team can't enter any warded space without alerting the creator.

~J
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Stahlseele
post Oct 19 2007, 09:21 PM
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QUOTE
Trying to give a ghoul back it's eyesight requires an explanation as to the specific cause of it's loss in the first place.

slow gradual physical blindness, it even says somewhere that most ghouls who do not degrade into slobbering animals get their eyes fixed or cyber-eyes, if i remember correctly. . seems to be something like one of nowadays grey/green star or whatever it is called in english which are both 2 types of an certain eye-problem that i can not for the life of me distinguish between *g*
one is about lense or glass-body of the eye becoming foggy and one is about lense coming lose i think . . but i am not sure, i'd have to eye that one more in depth to get a good view of it *snickers*
and i wonder if one could argue that if a ghoul spends the 2 power points on astral sight if he should be allowed to switch it on and off at will . . probably not . . and grounding, as has been said, is out of game in SR3 as far as i know O.o . .
ok, warded areas are a problem, i'll give it that . . but there's ways around that still with initiation and a certain meta-tech i think . . technically aside from his need for meat you can take a ghoul and switch him back to almost like before with cyber/bioware . .
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 19 2007, 09:31 PM
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There is no mention of any eye correction other than cybereyes.

~J
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Stahlseele
post Oct 19 2007, 10:05 PM
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not in all of SR i know . . and that's the one thing i find pretty stupid x.x . . by 4 time it's cheap enough to just replace everything you lose of have problems with . . up to and including SR3 replacements(ears/eyes aside) cost more than most people make in a year . . even without all the nifty toys one would want for them . . so why the heck is there no such thing as just corrective surgery for eyes/ears and just the option of replacing them entirely? there's even cosmetics but no, we can not repair your own eyes with all of our magical nanoscopic biotechnology, we will have to rip em out and replace them by metal in the form of two tri-d. . is that even tri-d? or is that just normal TV feed? cameras . . *seethe*
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rythymhack
post Oct 20 2007, 06:29 AM
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there is a precedent for corrective surgery. the troll mercenary has vision magnification and flare compensation...as retinal modifications. given that you can grow a replacement ARM...eyes are easy. there is nothing that disallows it, and several reasons it can be done. they just dont list it because most shadowrunners (and the people who hunt them) arent looking for a 'normal' replacement.
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Stahlseele
post Oct 20 2007, 06:58 AM
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ah yes, retinal modification . . i had such fun being an ass about it to my GM who really thought that one would actualy NEED cyber eyes to have all that eye ware installed *g*
Spent one Magic point to get ultra sound and light system into natural eyes which had thermo view and low light from birth and gave them vis mag 3 and flare comp and astral perception through adept powers . . all natural vision baby!
but yes, that is a good precedent . .
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Glyph
post Oct 21 2007, 12:03 AM
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Ghouls can be interesting to play, but they are definitely not viable from a power-gaming standpoint, considering how thoroughly boned they are by the rules.

First, that bonus to Willpower is unlikely. You need three successes simply to avoid penalties on top of the normal ones - three sixes is a lucky roll even with 8 or 9 dice.

Second, you flat-out lose a point of Magic right off the bat. And say goodbye to another point of it, just to get some cybereyes to correct your physical blindness. A Magic of 4? Four power points? That's starting at two-thirds the power of a normal starting adept!

You can get cybereye features as modifications to your eye, but they still cost Essense. A ghoul would not likely be able to get corrective surgery for his eyes, since his eyes are that way because of his disease. If you could tranplant a new hand onto someone with leprosy, the leprosy would just spread to the new hand. So any workable modfication to a ghoul's eyes would cost Essense.

Dual-natured is a flaw. You are continually vulnerable from the astral plane and can't go through wards without tripping them. Masking will help... eventually. Also, don't forget that mild allergy to sunlight, giving you penalties any time you are in daylight.

Some boost to physical Attributes, a net gain of 1 if you are lucky (2 if you are exceptionally lucky and get the Willpower bonus too). But one Essense point's worth of judiciously-chosen cyber and bio would give you much more of a boost.

Overall, ghouls are not worth it, unless you want to play one for roleplaying reasons and don't mind suffering char-gen penalties to do so.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Oct 22 2007, 12:59 AM
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However, wasn't there a theoretical build somewhere of the fastest metahuman on earth using a ghoul?

Max exceptional quickness night one changeling horse shamanist ghoul with satyr legs and the Movement (self) metamagic?

something like 9 X 5 X 5 m/3s (75 m/s)
slightly beating the unghouled for speed at 9 X 4 X 6 m/3s (72 m/s)

I don't remember if this was ever useful, or just a build absurdity.

Also, does any remember a faster build?
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Fortune
post Oct 22 2007, 01:10 AM
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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
Max exceptional quickness night one changeling horse shamanist ghoul with satyr legs and the Movement (self) metamagic?

I think there were Cyberskates in there somewhere. ;)
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CyberKender
post Oct 22 2007, 06:43 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Grounding's out these days, but it's still pretty annoying when one of your team can't enter any warded space without alerting the creator.

~J

Yes, 4th Ed. killed grounding, but this isn't the 4th ed. forum...
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 22 2007, 08:02 AM
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QUOTE (CyberKender @ Oct 22 2007, 01:43 AM)
Yes, 4th Ed. killed grounding, but this isn't the 4th ed. forum...

Someone needs to review their SR3 rules. Grounding hasn't been in the game since SR2.

~J
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CyberKender
post Oct 23 2007, 07:36 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Someone needs to review their SR3 rules. Grounding hasn't been in the game since SR2.

~J

So I missed that this was 3rd Ed. only? My 1st Ed. age caused me to miss that. Must be because of the Alzheimer's that the program carriers induced when the world changed. :>
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