 Tell me the story of San Francisco in 2070, what sourcebooks tell the tale? |
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 Oct 23 2007, 12:46 PM
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#26
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Prime Runner  Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665  |
http://waitinginline.insanejournal.com/ It's about my life at Hogwarts while I go to school in Prague. --- The story of California is tawdry and incomprehensible. Dates don't match up, descriptions of events like wars are wildly off between publications, and the numbers don't add up at all. This all culminates in over 32 million people vanishing from the face of the Earth between the CFS book and Shadows of North America. Not "moved to another country" not "were killed in a holocaust almost twice as brutal as the Nazi's war against the Soviet Union" but simply anished as if part of some administrative error. But here's what we can piece together: California leaves the Union in either 2036 or 2037, either shortly after or shortly before an invasion by Tir Tairngire. This separation is either voluntary or involuntary on the part of the California Republic and the government in Washington either allows them to leave without a fight or signed legislation forcing them out of the uninion. Sound confusing? It gets worse. Either during this time or perhaps the decade after (seriously), Aztec forces take San Diego by driving up with less troops than San Diego police make traffic stops in a month. At this time the population of the CFS is listed at 50 million. After some shakedowns, the Pueblo Corporate Council is perplexingly allowed to take control of the entire Los Angeles basin after being invited in by the Los Angeles Free Enterprise Zone Authority. The population of the CFS is then reported as 18 million and the population of the PCC is unchanged, so we're out tens of millions of people with no explanation.
But we're concentrating on San Francisco. To be charitable, well say that between utopianism and fear, most Orks had already moved into Oakland and most Dwarves had already moved to Fremont by 2042. Heck, Elves were already singularly unwelcome in the CFS, so really San Francisco had an extremely low metahuman population naturally when Saito declares that he is making up his own rules. By the time he has "gone rogue", he has been judge and jury on the Peninsula for 19 years - meaning that the people who are of military recruitment age were actually born under his rule. So it's entirely plausible (such as anything in the CFS timeline is "plausible") that he told the Nippon Empire to go fuck itself because the people he was recruiting into the marines in San Fran were more loyal and saw more eye to eye with him than the marines he was getting sent in from the "homeland". So basically we're looking at him being able to get off the ground doing horrible things to metahumans because metahumans were already in vanishingly short supply. And by the time he started doing it officially, he had been doing it unofficially for years. And by the time he started an expansionist program, he had actually raised an entire generation of people on his values of racial purity and strength. Doesn't explain all the bullshit and conflicting numbers, but it's a start. -Frank |
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Oct 23 2007, 05:25 PM
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#27
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 12-December 05 Member No.: 8,066 |
I really like reading Frank's posts on CA. They make me all warm and cozy. Maybe it is the heat radiating from his posts that do it... :)
By the way, I totally agree with what he says. I have lived in the South Bay for almost all my life (5 years I was in San Diego) and what has happened to CA is a joke. Oh, and there is no West Bay. There is the North Bay, East Bay, South Bay and the Pennisula. If you look at a map of the region, it makes sense. West Bay, yesh. Did you pick that up in Frisco? Tourist. |
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Oct 23 2007, 07:23 PM
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#28
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 16-February 07 Member No.: 11,019 |
No, iron mouser, i've lived in Oakland and Berkeley for most of the last decade. Many of us living in the East Bay refer to SF as the West Bay. It's a sort of joke at SF-centric mindsets. Sheesh. Resident. ;-P
Excellent write-up on the discrepancies, Frank. In our local group (IRL living in East and West Bay, and playing in Occupation Era Bay Area) we scrapped/rewrote some of it for greater coherency and fun. On a toxics note, the Farallones provide an excellent offshore toxic site. They lie 27 miles (43 km) outside the Golden Gate, 20 miles (32 km) south of Point Reyes. They are visible from the mainland on clear days. The islands are officially part of the City and County of San Francisco. If you don't want to read the lengthy bit below, the summation is GIANT TOXIC GREAT WHITE SHARKS vs. SELKIES. From 1946 to 1970, the sea around the Farallones was used as a nuclear dumping site for radioactive waste under the authority of the Atomic Energy Commission at a site known as the Farallon Island Nuclear Waste Dump. According to a 1980 report by the Environmental Protection Agency, approximately 47,500 containers, 55 gallon steel drums, were dumped in the vicinity of the Farallones. The primary military agency which used the dumping site was the Naval Radiological Defense Laboratory, in San Francisco, which was charged with decontamination of the ships from the Operation Crossroads nuclear tests in 1946 and carried out additional radiological work throughout the period. The irradiated US Navy ship USS Independence, which was used as a target at Operation Crossroads, "loaded with radioactive waste from NRDL and other generators, was towed to sea and sunk," apparently near this site. According to the United States Geological Survey, "The exact location of the containers and the potential hazard the containers pose to the environment are unknown." The 1980 EPA report argues that attempts to remove the barrels would likely produce more of a risk to humans and the environment than simply letting them remain on the bottom of the ocean. South Farallon Islands Southeast Farallon Island (SEFI) is the largest island, with an area of 0.31 km² or 310,406 m²) and is the only inhabited one. The island is pyramidal in shape and 109 meters high. The peak, Tower Hill (actually a double peak consisting of Lighthouse Hill and Little Lighthouse Hill), is the location of a lighthouse, the Farallon Island Light. The large flat area in the southeast of the island is called Marine Terrace. Immediately south of it is Mussel Flat, about 30 by 120 meters, which is cut off from the main island only during high tide. Seal Rock (Saddle Rock), about 250 meters south of SEFI is, about 80 by 250 meters in size, and 25 meters high. Maintop Island (West End) is immediately to the west of SEFI, separated by a narrow impassable gorge, The Jordan (Jordan Channel), which connects Mirounga Bay in the south to Maintop Bay in the north. It is the second largest island, and 68 meters high at Main Top hill in its eastern part. The Great West Arch, a rock formation, is in the west of the island, and Indian Head in the South. There are a bunch of other islands, but they are small (less than 150 m across and ranging from sea level to 25 m high.) The largest island is the wintering ground of several species of migrants, and regularly attracts vagrant birds (about 400 species of bird have been recorded on or around the island). Five species of pinniped come to shore on the islands, and in some cases breed. These are the Northern Elephant Seal, Harbor Seal, Steller's Sea Lion, California Sea Lion, and the Northern Fur Seal (the last of which, like the Rhinoceros Auklet, began to return to the island again after protection). The elephant seal population attracts a well-known population of Great White Sharks to the islands as well. By the year 2000, biologists were logging almost eighty attacks in a single season. No one had ever documented such behavior among great whites before. The Farallons are unique in the size of the Great Whites that are attracted. The average length of a full-grown great white shark is 4 to 4.8 metres (13.3 to 15.8 ft), with a weight of 680 to 1,100 kilograms (1,500 to 2,450 lbs), females generally being larger than males. Farallon Great Whites range between the "smaller" males at 13 ft. to the females which generally range between 17-19 ft. (The largest accurately measured great white shark was a female caught in August 1988 at Prince Edward Island off the North Atlantic coast and measured 20.3 ft). Humpback whales pass through this part of the Pacific Ocean on their migrations; moreover, in December 2005 one Humpback was rescued from netting entanglement east of the Farallons by staff of The Marine Mammal Center. The islands are in the Gulf of the Farallones National Marine Sanctuary, which protects the feeding grounds of the wildlife of the refuge. |
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Oct 23 2007, 09:10 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
Honestly to Frank: Thanks for the summary. I don't have *any* pre-SR4 books, so it's helpful to see what others are working from.
I don't share the apparent level of outrage that various writers and cartographers - and I'm guessing that they weren't well-resourced - are inconsistent with each other. I'm used to it from other multi-author fictional settings. Star Trek is perhaps an extreme example. Then again, I was a classical history major, so Thucidydes shaped my understanding of conflicting accounts of events. I can readily imagine a resident of 2070 SR San Francisco having read accounts all of the events in your summary, and noticing the incongruities, and deducing that SOMEONE must have been fudging history to fit their political agenda. In much the same way that there is STILL some disagreement about whether the Union or the Confederacy is at fault for the gunfire at Fort Sumter, or whether the government of Turkey killed any Armenians in the 1920s (Clinton and Bush both asked Congress not to use the term "genocide"). And if someone conquered all of Italy on the *pretext* of an invitation from the Vatican, well, that's precedented in history, no? Certainly there's disagreement about whether Los Angeles, San Francisco, Sacramento, or something else defines "California". I do share annoyance at the idea of elves or dwarves forming nations only a decade after the first year of UGE births. Unless there's a good explanation out there. Bias disclosure: I am a player in Stormcrow's group. Giant Toxic Great White Sharks? Dude, so glad I didn't know that when my PC was flying over SF Bay, shapechanged into a bird. I was born in SF, raised in SF and Marin (the county on north side of Golden Gate Bridge), and am fully used to Oaklanders referring to SF as the West Bay. It's kinda like people describing modern "Western Europe" and "Eastern Europe" in terms of the division of the Roman Empire. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Iron Mouser, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." |
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Oct 23 2007, 10:07 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 164 Joined: 9-December 04 From: former Bug City, now CFS Member No.: 6,875 |
What about that nuke that detonated over the bridge, eh?
Also: can you still get a good burrito in the Mission post-Saito? |
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Oct 23 2007, 10:26 PM
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#31
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Well, the Elves had the benefit of Spike Babies. Some of whom were even organized and/or gathered together by |
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Oct 24 2007, 01:53 AM
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#32
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Tir Na nOg was founded in 2034. By then, the oldest living elves with 12,000, give or take, and they highly elistist racist mofos who practices slavery and believed that they were The Passions' gift to metamankind and, by extention, elves were superior to all other races.
Spike babies would be about 34. Manipulations of the former lead the latter to create their own countries. |
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Oct 24 2007, 06:11 AM
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#33
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 12-December 05 Member No.: 8,066 |
@Riley37 and Stormcrow - Odd, I have never heard the Peninsula called that by anyone, but I could have just been hanging out with a different group.
@G.NOME - Which bridge? There are two that lead into S.F city (Golden Gate and Bay Bridge), three to the south (San Mateo, Dumbarton and the (SR-created) Butterfly Bridge) and three more leading from the East Bay to points north (Whose names escape me, though I hear them in traffic reports each day). |
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Oct 24 2007, 06:31 AM
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#34
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 12-December 05 Member No.: 8,066 |
I figured it out! Ok, not really, but I think I found a way that would allow it to work, somewhat. The LA region gets most (if not all) of its water from the Colorado River, which is controlled by the PCC. As part of the deal that gave the Free City of LA to the PCC, a larger amount of water was diverted to LA. The other areas, hearing about the deal (and always thirsty for more water), begin to make similar deals with the PCC. Soon the whole of the LA region is PCC controlled. Not perfect, but better than nothing. Oh, and the dumb answer for where all those missing people went, the census for the PCC happens every 10 years. The figures from NAN Vol.1 were from the one was done in 2050 and the number from SoNA result from the 2060 census. The new citizens of the PCC will be counted in the next census, scheduled for 2070. After typing that out, it almost makes sense... |
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Oct 24 2007, 06:45 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
The people of LA don't have full citizenship, according to SoNA. They have probationary citizenship. If the PCC only calculates it's population by counting full citizenship, it would account for the population discrepancy.
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Oct 24 2007, 07:03 AM
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#36
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Target Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 1-September 07 Member No.: 13,032 |
I know very little about Shadowrun history, but I am a military and foreign affairs buff. This whole Japanese invasion of SF has always sounded like the most asinine thing I can imagine. First of all, Japan has no military. The US defends it. Even if it did have a military, there are a lot more reasonable targets for invasion in that area of the world. Invade to protect economic interests? Trust me, pissing off your biggest partner and customer is pretty damn bad for the bottom line. Third, a naval crossing with an occupying force making it across despite vast US air and naval superiority would take a miracle. Surprise attack? Are you kidding? With radar, sonar, submarines and satellite surveillance? Even if there were a naval invasion… an enduring military occupation of the US… not a prayer.
It’s my opinion that writers of Shadowrun stretch a bit much at times to achieve justification for a setting to their liking. |
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Oct 24 2007, 07:15 AM
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#37
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I'm curious as to why you think all (or even most ... or even any) Spike Babies were born around the year 2000. I don't recall anything in the books that limit their appearance to only around this time frame. |
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Oct 24 2007, 07:22 AM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
Japan didn't "invade" in the traditional sense. First, you had the Azzies side with the CAS against the UCAS and California, not to mention the establishment of Tir Tairngire. Then you have the US countries disowning California. Even if Cali broke away, the UCAS didn't want them back cause they seemed a bunch of indecisive tree hugging pricks who simply caused problems. Regardless, once out from under the UCAS, that leaves Cali unprotected against Tir and the Azzies. So who do they turn to? The Japanese.
As for the Japanese, it's explained that their might isn't military, but technological at first. They developed satellites that could bring direct drone control into remote areas and invaded the Philippines and parts of Africa. To suddenly get a technological army on their side, San Fran essentially agreed to vassalage. By the time Japan was able to take over, they were the biggest power in world and San Francisco was scared and helpless. Plus, since most of the corps in San Fran at the time were Japanese, it meant it was in their interest to support a takeover. Sure, it's not the most likely scenario, but when you consider the depth of that timeline, it's also not much less likely than the UCAS never giving up control or the Azzies taking San Fran or Tir controlling all of the West Coast. Quite Frankly, inviting the predominant Superpower in to save you is a brilliant move in that situation. |
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Oct 24 2007, 08:11 AM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
There are already some debates about census methods, driven partly by desire to boost count for representation in House of Representatives; civil wars and people going intentionally off the grid may complicate matters. Some census takers may apply the "3/5 of all other persons" rule to DEOTs (dwarves, elves, orcs, trolls).
Iron Mouser, I've heard SF county called West Bay; dunno the boundary of South Bay - maybe SFO, or Palo Alto? Conflicts over water would be quite appropriate for Shadowrun CalFree history. Heh. The skillset to make a good burrito has been passed on from generation to generation... even if Saito systematically eliminates the tacquerias, parents teach children in secret. :) By the way... does Sixth World history have an explanation for the lack of rising ocean levels? |
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Oct 24 2007, 08:20 AM
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#40
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Not really. I've assumed that it tied directly into the wealth and power of the Trans Polar Aleut. They set up giant Carbon Sinks in the Arctic and charge the coastal countries exhorbitant fees for it. Than the algae gets dropped to the bottom of the sea where the slow current will keep it out of atmospheric circulation for ten thousand years, by which time it will be someone else's problem. This might actually work, what with the apparent ability to create algal blooms pretty much anywhere by adding accessible Iron coupled with the subduction currents present in the Arctic. -Frank |
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Oct 24 2007, 08:39 AM
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#41
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Magic !! |
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Oct 24 2007, 03:03 PM
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#42
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 12-December 05 Member No.: 8,066 |
The South Bay is typically defined as Santa Clara County with the Peninsula defined as San Mateo and San Francisco County. If you are not sure where the boundary is for Santa Clara and San Mateo County, you can draw a line west following 237. Santa Clara will lose half of Mt View (home to Google) and all of Palo Alto (home to Stanford University), but it is close. By the way, few companies now have their HQ's in San Fransisco. The price of real estate is too high. If you are large and in the Bay Area, you are not in the City. A few examples, the afore mentioned Google (Mt. View), Yahoo! ( Santa Clara), Oracle (Redwood Shores - on the Peninsula (or West Bay ;) )) and Apple (Cupertino). But this is Shadowrun History we are talking about, where Japan never had a recession and Yahoo and Google never existed. |
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Oct 24 2007, 04:17 PM
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#43
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Let me be as straightforward as I possibly can about this: You are wrong. The JSDF has the third largest budget in the world. The only nations that spend more on their military are the USA and China. Japan has successfully fooled itself and the rest of the world (for the most part) into buying this idea that "they don't have a military." The way they did this is that their constitution (that we wrote for them) says they can't send troops to other countries. It does not mean they have no power to kill the crap out of you. Indeed, their navy alone consists of around 50,000 people and 120 ships. That may not seem like much compared to the 250,000 US Navy troops and 280 ships, but we have about 3 times the population of Japan. Yes, we will protect Japan if it is threatened. But never make the mistake that they don't have any guns. That said, yes, a military invasion of California of any kind would be total suicide even if California had a fraction of the military presence it has now. |
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Oct 24 2007, 04:57 PM
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#44
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Target Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 17-January 07 Member No.: 10,677 |
What if all UCAS military units were pulled out and the state government had been told by the federal government, 'You're not happy about how the country is doing things? Fine, you're out. You're too far away and asking for too much stuff as it is.' My memory is hazy and my books are elsewhere, but I thought that was how California started to get to the point that Japan could invade. |
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Oct 24 2007, 05:02 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
I've never seen a hard and fast explanation or mention of rising ocean levels. My assumption was that the Earth's revolt against the Azzies in South America and surge in spirit activity helped counteract the toxic spirits and at least bring global warming to a standstill, if not reverse it. Perhaps global warming was even part of the reason the awakening happened, with the various ancient metatypes getting pissed off at the destruction of their world. |
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Oct 24 2007, 05:03 PM
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#46
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
And yet that same California could kick the Tir -- a country entire books are dedicated to telling us how badass and awesome they are and you aren't -- to the curb, twice.
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Oct 24 2007, 05:06 PM
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#47
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 12-December 05 Member No.: 8,066 |
What would Cali do? Well, having one of the highest GNPs in the world, it would hire Ares (and any other Mercs) to protect it, until it could build up its own military presence. See, that is where the inane and stupid part of the CA story come in. If you are a manager and you have someone who telecommutes and who is a bit pushy, but brings in about 30% of all the money you make in a year, do you fire them? No. Same thing with the UCAS kicking out CA. It does not make sense. It was done so there would be anoth distopic region in the world. Just like the Great Ghost Dance or the UCAS/CAS split. |
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Oct 24 2007, 05:16 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
You forget that the entire US was in a recession. California probably, at that point, didn't have the money to viably finance a war without going into serious debt. And who would they go into debt to? A Japanese corp, maybe? Most of their money was federally controlled, so getting the boot would've seriously hurt their finances as well. Regardless, with most of the San Fran corps being Japanese, it's in their interest to offer a few choice bribes and delay any private security force from saving the day. Plus the corps, Ares included, liked the Japanese deregulation of business since it allowed them immense profits thanks to little oversight.
Even if Cali could overpower Tir, they're fighting a two front war against the Azzies as well. If they concentrated their forces on the North, the South would be left open. Not to mention the NAN sitting idly by and waiting for a prime moment to swoop in. The Japanese navy could easily have taken a small portion of Cali in the melee even if San Fran hadn't invited them in. |
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Oct 24 2007, 06:45 PM
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#49
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 12-December 05 Member No.: 8,066 |
Who cares about debt? As a nation, debt is not all that bad. And as a young nation, it can be good. Looking back in history, Alexander Hamilton understood this, that is why he recommended that the young US borrow hevily from other nations in our wars vs. England. He believed (correctly) that if the U.S. owed money to a number of people then those people would come to our defense, knowing full well that if the U.S. was defeated they would get nothing back. So, who would the CFS have borrowed from? Any other major Corp. The ever popular PCC would have been good too. A deal with them, maybe no tariffs on goods moved between the PCC and ports on the Pacific. Why would a corp or country take the risk, I know you will ask. And that is easy. It is an investment. And sometimes the riskiest investments have the biggest pay-offs. But what assests in San Fransisco would there be? I guess that is my biggest issue with the reason for the JDF to land and take over the City. At most, the Japanese Corps own a building or two in the Financial District. That is it. Why send in a Division of troops to defend an office tower? Now, it would make more sense if the troops took over the Central Valley to defend Agro concerns that the Corps might control, or Silicon Valley assests (but it would be easier to simplly extract them). As for regulation, there is nothing better than having a country in your back pocket, so why would Ares not help out the CFS? Then they don't have to worry as much about the Japanese Corps. Ares could have had the whole state to itself. Again, it was a half (generous) thought out storyline that allowed for another distopic region. The best that you can do now is try to retcon some sense into it. |
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Oct 24 2007, 09:01 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
Imaginative. Works for me. As for the "badass and awesome" Tir: Individual elves can be badass and awesome, and not only that, they also look stylish and sexy while they're dancing around you in combat, and a Tir Ghosts fireteam is rated higher than a Red Samurai fireteam, but does that mean that the Tir army can match a CalFree army? Quality of troops vs. superior numbers and weapons can go either way. Of course, I'm biased towards any story in which NorCal wins. Go Ecotopia! Does Hestaby take an interest in events in San Francisco? Of course, at some level; is Hestably aiding anti-JIS rebels, or aiding the JIS, or playing both sides against each other? Does the JIS-vs-resistance struggle get so ugly that either or both sides start siccing invae, blood spirits, shedim, or other monsters on the enemy? if the JIS - any nasty Shinto kami? |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 7th December 2025 - 07:23 PM |
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