 Why the slew of Munchkins lately? |
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 Oct 22 2007, 04:27 PM
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#26
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ghostrider  Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333  |
That's what I was getting at. Not that the systems are any better/worse, just that I've never been on the boards for a "new" system. |
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Oct 22 2007, 04:34 PM
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#27
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I used to do Destruction Testing of software. The only thing with FRPs is it would even further impact release dates for what appears to be an impatient customer base (from the many "when is [insert supplement title here] coming out?" threads I've seen).
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Oct 22 2007, 06:16 PM
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#28
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Well, honestly the reason I've been doing them is 1) familiarizing myself with new material (aug) 2) I only have 1 face to face game I play in, but if another came up, I have plenty of idea for a variety of characters that I could make, and 3) number crunching is fun for me. (I used to make vehicles via the R3R creation rules by hand, for kicks)
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Oct 22 2007, 07:31 PM
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#29
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Come on, don't tell me you weren't trying to be insulting. Your entire thread was meant to be baiting and insulting. In case you really don't know what your insults were, I'll point them out to you:
Just because some posters agree with you and the moderators let you get away with this crap doesn't mean it isn't wrong. |
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Oct 22 2007, 07:36 PM
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#30
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Just curious Buster, but why do you think he was referring to you specifically? I've posted more munchkin character threads than you have. Not to mention my munchkins having a better chance of actually completing a run.
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Oct 22 2007, 08:15 PM
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#31
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
This isn't a mod post/official/on behalf of the staff:
There might be some "inflammatory" terminology being used, but the question is just as legitimate as any other. "Why are there so many character optimization threads right now?" might have been a more pleasant way to word it, sure, but we don't have a policy that says "your posts must invoke images of cotton candy and happiness". The thread is only baiting if you take it that way, and respond in kind. Nowhere did the original post say "Buster sucks because he likes to see how powerful he can make a character". In fact, before you took offense, posted a parody thread, and then came back here to vent, this thread actually contained some decent discussion on the validity, purpose, and number of the type of thread in question, including the majority of your first post. You don't have any perspective on how frequently or how infrequently the type of post being referred to happens. That's not an insult. It's how it is. You are a newer member, so you aren't seeing that there has been a relative explosion of these threads lately. |
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Oct 22 2007, 08:29 PM
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#32
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Egocentrism. That's how it works, that's what I think, and that's all that matters.
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Oct 22 2007, 10:18 PM
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#33
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Boy, do I recall the SR2/3 switchover here. There was a s**tstorm over how many broken characters you could make in SR3, and that was before the advanced books came out. Granted, however, that I don't recall a Pornomancer, a Mr. Lucky, or a Bloodzilla being possible back then, but you are right that newer systems get chewed up and spat out. Which is why I think, despite the delays incurred, destruction testing of RPGs is a good idea. |
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Oct 22 2007, 10:19 PM
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#34
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The Pornomancer was born out of the ashes of SotA64, with its plethora of craptastic Adept Powers.
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Oct 22 2007, 10:27 PM
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#35
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
I tend to agree with Cain's and eidolon's interpretation of newer systems encouraging people to test the limitations of the rules. But for what it's worth, I believe that SR4 might have fewer exploits than SR3 did. Every system has some, but I think that the drive to simplify/unify the rules helped level the playing field.
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Oct 22 2007, 10:28 PM
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#36
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
What's red, covered with feathers, and pulsating with the power of life as it rises from the ashes of SOTA64? A SURGED pornomancer shapeshifter's dong. EDIT: Over on bullshido.net, Hedgehogey +repped me for mentioning Bene Gesserit in a certain thread and left the comment, "Remember when Duncan Idaho started an arms race with his cock?" |
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Oct 23 2007, 05:49 AM
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#37
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
*sigh* To Buster: Alright, listen. That really wasn't me trying to be insulting. Seriously. It wasn't. You know why? Because I fucking listen to Master Yoda, that's why. When I carried that green little fuck around the swamps on my back, I was really pissed off about the humidity on Dagobah and how much his little muppet ass weighed, so I was determined to get my money's worth out of his Jedi training sessions, so I payed attention. And you know what he told me, once? He said DO OR DO NOT, THERE IS NO TRY. So, no. I don't "try" to be insulting. I'm either insulting, or I'm not. I either ask a question (that's this thread), or I insult people (that's when I piss people off 'till they call me an asshole, and then reply by singing Denis Leary's "I'm An Asshole" song at them). Now I'm sorry if you think my question was really mean or something, but when there are thread titles like "Meet My Munchkin Mage: Suck it Muggles!" I tend to just assume that those involved aren't going to get their fucking feelings hurt when I make comments about how silly a character is. Until you started this little back-and-forth, for the record, I had no idea one of the thread titles that sparked this thread was yours. Now, I'm sorry if a Shadowrun character with a "smokin'" smiley face next to it and a Harry God Damned Potty reference in the thread title is the pinnacle of your gritty, cyberpunk, mature, serious storytelling technique, but that's not my cross to bear, okay? But when you call your own character a munchkin, and then fill your mangina with sand and have a little hissy when someone else does the same, it really makes me worry about whether or not you're staying on your pills. You need to talk to someone about your bipolar disorder, and spend less time jumping someone's shit for asking a question. I didn't say munchkin threads were worthless. I didn't say I was going to call my Congressman and get them banned. I didn't say they were wasting bandwidth, or making baby Jesus cry, or giving kittens cancer. I didn't say I cared about them all that much one way or the other -- I just asked if I'd missed some specific reason for them (and apparently I did, in at least one case characters have been posted as a sort of challenge), or if there were certain rules people were creating characters to abuse, and all that sort of zany shit. I'm sorry if I didn't compliment everyone in that first post, or give everyone a hug, or hand out cotton candy and lollipops, okay? But maybe you've noticed, no one got pissy about it but you. No one made me start being insulting but you. Other people commented on noticing the same trend I noticed, or answered my question, or whatever. You're the one that got all grouchy and righteously indignant, and started threads specifically to be inflammatory (which this one wasn't), and had to push for a little internet showdown. Much like mommy and daddy's divorce, the direction my posts have taken is all your fault. I hope you feel better now, since I'm being insulting, and you can sit back and just revel in your self-fulfilling prophecy. To everyone who is not named Buster: Thank you for your replies. My curiosity has been sated. It's good to know that people take away something positive from the threads in question, it's good to know that they're helping give people ideas they're able to roll over into a little more serious characters, it's good to know that sometimes it's just people flexing a new supplement a little bit. It's been a while since I hung around the SR4 forum very much, and I didn't remember these sorts of threads being around much, so it's a new phenomenon for me. Have a nice day. Here's some cotton candy, a hug, and a lollipop. |
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Oct 23 2007, 07:10 AM
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#38
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Like I said in another thread, SR4 fails to reduce its number of exploits due to the fact it was never destruction-tested. SR3 had years upon years for all the major holes to get ironed out; and the ones that didn't tended to come from newer material. If the devs increase their speed of responsiveness, then I'll accept that in a few years, SR4 will have about as many exploits as SR3 did. But considering how long it took for them to fix the Teamwork test, and how they've still left in major loopholes like the Pornomancer, Edge and the Longshot test, Called Shots, and the Agent Smith army...well, years seems like a short estimate. |
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Oct 23 2007, 03:05 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
Everyone has their cup of tea. Some favor Darjeeling while others might favor Ceylon or Assam. It is a matter of taste and preference. Some people like to play optimized characters that do not give as much thought to how role-playable those characters actually are. There might even be some suspension of disbelief on the players part because their character is not necessarily realistic, but they enjoy playing them. Critias and others, it is obvious you do not like characters whose tendency is to be effective mechanic-wise over roleplaying. This is your opinion and will not stop other people from stating their opinions on their preference. I realize their view of things might not be the best way to go about playing the game, but as long as they enjoy it and it fits their group, I do not see what the big problem is.
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Oct 23 2007, 03:29 PM
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#40
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Also, just in terms of "rules of debate and the internet":
It's not an insult to correctly point out what something is. If I call a guy a nazi and he's wearing a Waffen SS unform while sig heiling a picture of hitler, it's not an insult. It's an observation. The same goes for saying, "Hey, that character is a horribly min-maxed, rules-loophole exploiting thing. It's designed to be ridiculous. It is not, in fact, well-rounded. I'm just sayin'. |
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Oct 23 2007, 07:37 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
Yes, but you don't see people making remarks that too many role-playable characters are being made when people like Fortune and Kyoto Kid post their characters. |
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Oct 23 2007, 07:39 PM
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#42
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Perhaps this is because said characters are not horribly min-maxed, in general. Perhaps readers choose to observe other things about said characters because "ridiculous" and "OMG WTF BBQ" are not the first things that come to mind.
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Oct 23 2007, 07:44 PM
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#43
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
there's not much to discuss about such characters. you look at them, you say "yes, that is an interesting character", and that's it.
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Oct 23 2007, 07:45 PM
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#44
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Could also be that role playing is the point of the game, and thusly, role playable characters don't warrant remark.
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Oct 23 2007, 10:40 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
Haven't yet posted here, so I thought I'd lob my 2 :nuyen: on to the pile.
As far as most of the muchkin/min-maxed characters, and the end result of horribly broken ones. All serve to test the bounds of the game system. The horribly broken ones are the glaring holes that need fixes (as many have pointed out and developed their own solutions to those holse). munchkin characters serve the same purpose in a sense. They don't find the holes of the fabric of the system, but find where there is a saggy area that needs to be examined when the holes are fixed. And in that sense some of the sagging areas have already been fixed, the changes to bullet damages in errata 1.5 was a prime example of that. I wish in many ways that the play testers for SR were real testers who would methodically plan and exploit the system to look for errors, but for the time being, we've got what we've got. |
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Oct 23 2007, 10:41 PM
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#46
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
some of the playtesters tried to do exactly that, for a while. there's only so much polishing of silverware one can stomach, though, when one is on the Titanic.
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Oct 23 2007, 10:49 PM
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#47
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Just out of curiousity, I would be interested to know just where you have seen any kind of character posted by myself, outside of actual character submissions for games in the Welcome to the Shadows Forum. In all of my time here, and all of my (some say too many) posts, I have never, not even once, posted a character for review. |
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Oct 23 2007, 10:51 PM
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#48
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Mfb, this isn't an insult or sarcasm, but an honest question. Were the devs less than responsive with glaring holes found in the rules? And how many of the glaring holes we knew/know about were caught by playtesters, and ignored? Like the Teamwork test, for example.
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Oct 23 2007, 11:08 PM
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#49
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
they were very responsive to problems within the structure of the rules--that is, issues with things like movement rates and cyberlimb balance were brought up, and later rules revisions would fix the problems that had been pointed out. i'd be surprised to find that the teamwork rules were pointed out as being problematic, because the devs seemed very willing to fix stuff like that.
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Oct 23 2007, 11:40 PM
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#50
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
Using the term munckin is inflammatory and will cause a debate.
As for the substance of the question - a substantial subset of RPG gamers like making characters. A substantial subset of people are naturally competitive. As character generation and flexibility of a system increases, you tend to get more 'chargen' lovers showing up because they have lots of options to play with which increases the 'fun' of the system to tinker with and see what you can do. Now, add a community of other people - many of who are also playing 'lets see what we can do' and are also playing 'Rawr, I can do that better' and you're likely to get 'Rawr, look how cool THIS is.' Or so I reckon. |
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