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> Tir Nanog Question, Rules for Path Magic?
CircuitBoyBlue
post Oct 22 2007, 10:07 PM
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Does anyone have any ideas for how I should update Path Magic for some NPCs?

Also, as an aside, it always annoyed me that Warriors have to choose 6 physical skills for their Core skills, and I'm fairly certain the only Physical skills in SRII were Stealth and Athletics. Similar deal with having to pick 3 Combat skills in addition to Armed, Unarmed, and Firearms.
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post Oct 23 2007, 01:03 AM
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Update to what?

I don't know if the physical skills discrepancy was an oversight or they intended something else but if it's any consolation CC introduced the physical skill of parachuting ;)
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 23 2007, 01:13 AM
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Diving is also, IIRC, a Physical skill now that we've entered the SR3 era.

~J
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CircuitBoyBlue
post Oct 23 2007, 02:32 AM
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Sorry, I guess my original post was pretty unclear now that I look back at it. Have the rules for Path magic been updated at all since the Tir NaNog book? Looking through TNN, the big thing I see in the Path rules that doesn't lend itself to easy conversion to 4th is when it starts talking about reducing Drain Levels and what-not. Which I guess begs the larger question: how do you convert SRII damage codes to 4th?

But also, does anyone have thoughts on house rules for morph seeking weapons in 4th? I imagine that wireless tech would have an impact on them, and possibly essence costs would be different. I also imagine that the tech would have gotten out by now; it's been 20 years--SOMEONE must have either come by the technology independently, or figured out a way to copy it, or just flat out stolen one and managed to survive long enough to reverse engineer it. Same goes for all the other Tir tech, like the crazy anti-magic armor.
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 23 2007, 02:37 AM
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It doesn't "beg" the question, it raises it. As for morph-seeking weapons, my advice is to pretend they never existed.

As for the rules for path magic, it's been a while since I read TNN, but MitS does have vague rules for the overpowered Path of the Righ, which might be related.

~J
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Synner
post Oct 23 2007, 08:29 AM
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QUOTE (CircuitBoyBlue)
Sorry, I guess my original post was pretty unclear now that I look back at it. Have the rules for Path magic been updated at all since the Tir NaNog book?

The Paths were updated to Third Edition in Magic in the Shadows (and toned down slightly) and the fluff was revisited again in Shadows of Europe, they have now been updated for Fourth Edition with Street Magic.
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FrankTrollman
post Oct 23 2007, 08:41 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
As for morph-seeking weapons, my advice is to pretend they never existed.


Seconded. Morph Seeking weapons never really fit into the rules when they were devised. Quite frankly they didn't seem to do anything I couldn't do with a high powered sniper rifle and a smartlink. Sure, the flavor text went on and on and on abou how awesome they were, but the rules just didn't back that up - it was a decent sniper rifle that mysteriously cost a literal arm and a leg.

And honestly, you can kill someone with a sniper rifle. There really isn't any call for something that is "better" than that.

As for Path Magic, what Synner said. Since its introduction, Path Magic has been reprinted in every single Magic Book for every edition. And each time it gets reprinted it has less stupid, overpowered, and incomprehensible bits. The Grimoire's version was less inexplicable than the tirade in Tir na nOg, the MitS version is written more coherently still. By the time it gets to Street Magic, Path casters are just like anyone else and the Path of the Righ is modelled by giving Righ NPCs extra initiate grades.

-Frank
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Ryu
post Oct 23 2007, 09:50 AM
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I knew someone once who mixed SR2 and SR3 specifically so he could continue to use the old path magic rules. For his righ character. "Unjustifiable bunch of munchkin powers, obey my command."

Path magic is not only in SR4, but now actually conforming to general tradition building rules. All is well.
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Critias
post Oct 23 2007, 10:30 AM
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There are always people who think "Well, what's the point if it's not better than everything else?"

Those people played Righ characters.
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Fortune
post Oct 23 2007, 10:37 AM
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Funny, but the only Path magician I have ever been tempted to play was from the Path of the Warrior. Never got a chance to play him though. :(
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CircuitBoyBlue
post Oct 23 2007, 12:57 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
Funny, but the only Path magician I have ever been tempted to play was from the Path of the Warrior. Never got a chance to play him though. :(

[QUOTE][QUOTE]
Same here. The premise of the character was that he was running the shadows in Seattle to combat Tir Tairngire influence, but the campaign never got up and running.

And I missed Path magic somehow in Street Magic. I'm not quite sure how I feel about it working just like everything else now. On one hand, I liked the feeling that everything was different in Tir NaNog. On the other, I didn't like the fact that every sourcebook that came out seemed to have some magical tradition that was way more powerful than what the Native Americans were using, which struck me as odd considering the early focus on Native American culture (the Ghost Dance and all that). I've also got mixed feelings about how they beat everyone over the head with the non-PCness of the cool stuff in the book (heh, "non-PC"). Saying that if you steal any of the cool toys "magical lines will trace right back" to you, and "No PC can ever hope to be spiritually advanced enough for the Path of the Righ." It's good that the players can't get their hands on this stuff, but it feels a little like railroading.

Which I guess is kind of what I'm after right now. I have a player who's new to the game and plays a lone wolf human supremacist terrorist (no metas in the group, thankfully). Being new to the game, he sometimes acts like a lot of players do in that other RPG, in that he assumes everything in the game is there to be killed by marauding PCs. I was hoping to expose him to the Tir and show him that there's a lot of "different" things out there, and that when he's out of his element, he can't always get away with doing whatever he wants. I figured some morph rifles and Warrior adepts and Righ sorcerors might humble him a little bit.
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Critias
post Oct 23 2007, 01:06 PM
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I can only assume that "humble him a little bit" rhymes with "murder him in less than one full surprise round."
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CircuitBoyBlue
post Oct 23 2007, 02:25 PM
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Yeah. I suppose it IS kind of a big gun to pull. Anything particularly Tir NaNoggy that you would suggest that will scare some players without murdering them in the blink of an eye?
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Critias
post Oct 23 2007, 02:40 PM
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Well, no, not really. Because players don't scare unless they get murdered in the blink of an eye, most of the time. It's just the nature of the RPG beast.

The last thing you want to do is pull out some ubertwinky diceless nonsense, that'll just piss 'em off. The trick is to arrange for a show of force that won't result in hard feelings from the players, but will show them how outgunned they are -- "the trick" refers to, in some ways, GMing Shadowrun at all -- and every GM has to find their own way to do that.

One old movie schtick that sometimes works is to introduce a mentor-figure to the group, have a badass NPC help them out a few times (and make sure they know how badass he is), and then have that badass NPC get taken down like a prom queen's panties right in front of them, maybe. A friendly rival sort of Shadowrun group that sometimes splits jobs with them? Someone's old contact, now running a small merc charter? A buddy on the Star, and a FRT or SWAT team? Maybe the pro-human sociopath knows some dangerous terrorist types (like from the Red Branch, let's say)? A friendly Yakuza or Mafia or other tough, violent, organized criminal type?

Do like the movies do and show them badass sympathetic characters, and then destroy them with the larger threat. We weren't scared in Aliens because of the lighting or the music or the special effects. We were scared because from the first minute we met them, those Colonial Marines were made of awesome; they oozed confidence and competence, they had cool nicknames and a chick machinegunner with a badass gyroscope thingie, their squad had at least one flamethrower (OMG, a flamethrower, no shit!), and even in the middle of what was supposed to be a dangerous mission they were busting each other's balls and acting all cool and stuff.

And then -- no way! -- some fucking bugs just tore the crap out of that elite team of jarhead hardasses. We wouldn't have been scared of the bugs if they ate a bunch of cubicle jockeys or McDonald's register attendants. The aliens wouldn't have been scary if they'd just hunted and killed a mall security guard or something. Those bugs took out Colonial Marines, man! Colonial Marines!

But through it all, the "PC" -- Sigourney Weaver, playing some character I can't be bothered to remember the name of -- stayed alive and eventually saved the day, right?

So maybe try something like that. Give 'em a session or two to warm up to some pretty competent allies, let 'em see that their buddies know their shit, and then have, I don't know, a solo Tir badass assassin type rip 'em a new one...and THEN have a squad of those badass assassin types confront the team (and air their grievances).

Y'know? Something like that, maybe.
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 23 2007, 02:45 PM
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Another decent way to provide some nonlethal intimidation is to set them up against an unmanned drone with a lowish Pilot. It won't be doing a lot of hitting, but most models should be impervious to just about anything the players can dish out.

~J
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CircuitBoyBlue
post Oct 23 2007, 04:40 PM
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Thanks for the suggestions. I've been running SR since 2nd ed. Getting players to respect when it is or is not appropriate to shoot everything used to be really easy for me. But with the new edition, it just feels like a whole new game, especially with players that have never touched SR before. Just throws me for a loop and makes me feel like a newb all over again, you know?
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Ryu
post Oct 24 2007, 09:23 AM
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Ah, that kind of player problem.

You don´t need no Righ for that. What you need to do is play up the protectiveness of local syndicates and law enforcement agencies. Officers go home and have families, too.

Don´t even kill him. Have his connections tell him "people" who look dangerous are asking about him. Have his car demolished while he is away etc.

---

A Righ was the main offender in our case. He convinced a fellow player that playing a warrior was a good idea. That one was "allowed" to replace core skills by chipped skills. Did I mention that ones MBW already? If you go the route of the Tirs, think of an adept who pays only half of any essence cost for combat ware. Forget about sniper rifles, use a spoon. Or something as dangerous, it will do.
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 24 2007, 12:20 PM
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QUOTE (Ryu @ Oct 24 2007, 04:23 AM)
Officers go home and have families, too.

Which is why you follow them home and kill the family as well.

Batman cannot be tolerated!

~J
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