IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Channeling after dark, sunrise/sunset vs channeling time
tisoz
post Oct 24 2007, 10:32 PM
Post #1


Free Spirit
*******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,944
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Bloomington, IN UCAS
Member No.: 1,920



Just had this come up. What happens if a shaman channels a spirit and the successes would extend the channeling time past sunset/sunrise? For example, shaman Channels a spirit 5 minutes before sunset getting 3 successes. Does the channeling end in 30 minutes or when the spirit leaves in 5 minutes at sunset?

Normal Channeling rules state multiply the successes by 10 minutes, at the end of that time the spirit departs, even if it still owed services. Does this supercede the standard spirit leaving at sunrise sunset?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Oct 24 2007, 10:48 PM
Post #2


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



In my opinion (no quotes to back it up), the Sunrise/Sunset limits would override all other options.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pendaric
post Oct 24 2007, 10:58 PM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 993
Joined: 5-December 05
From: Crying in the wilderness
Member No.: 8,047



I would advise the oppersite more in line with possession.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Oct 24 2007, 11:03 PM
Post #4


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



QUOTE (Pendaric)
I would advise the oppersite more in line with possession.

Why? What makes Possession traditions special that they (only) can ignore one of the basic tenets of SR Conjuration?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
tisoz
post Oct 24 2007, 11:05 PM
Post #5


Free Spirit
*******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,944
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Bloomington, IN UCAS
Member No.: 1,920



I am almost positive this was never addressed in SR3. I was hoping to get an idea of what others thought or if someone could point to a similar situation (exception) that could help make a decision.

Like if a magician has a time geas and is sustaining a spell past the time, what happens, if anything? Sort of a similar predicament.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
tisoz
post Oct 24 2007, 11:17 PM
Post #6


Free Spirit
*******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,944
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Bloomington, IN UCAS
Member No.: 1,920



QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Pendaric @ Oct 25 2007, 08:58 AM)
I would advise the oppersite more in line with possession.

Why? What makes Possession traditions special that they (only) can ignore one of the basic tenets of SR Conjuration?

Another basic of nature spirits is not being able to cross domain lines, yet the invoking metamagic lets spirits exceed this space constraint.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mfb
post Oct 24 2007, 11:36 PM
Post #7


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 11,410
Joined: 1-October 03
From: Pittsburgh
Member No.: 5,670



well, yes, but the text for invoking specifically states which limits the metamagic allows you to overcome. as far as i'm aware, nothing in the text for possession says anything about being able to ignore the sunrise/sunset limitation. if it's two hours before sunset, and you tell your task spirit to fix your wrecked car, it doesn't stay past sunset just because the task will take eight hours to complete. i don't see why possession should work any differently.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
tisoz
post Oct 25 2007, 08:58 AM
Post #8


Free Spirit
*******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,944
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Bloomington, IN UCAS
Member No.: 1,920



I re-read the Channeling section and the next to last paragragh addresses when the channeling ends so that the Drain Test can be made.
QUOTE (T:AL @ page110)
Once the time of the channeling is up, or the initiate voluntarily chooses to end it, the spirit departs back to the metaplanes, ...

It still does not address the overall sunrise/sunset rule.

Channeling does pull the spirit into the channeler's body. Is this enough to overcome the pull of the terminator (used as the astronomical term denoting the change from light to dark.)? This seems a little like locking in the spirit during cybermancy, and according to fiction, the cybermantic ritual could trap even free spirits entering the vessel. If cybermancy is capable of this, it seems likely it is capable of capturing a sunrise/sunset duration spirit, thereby breaking the basic rule.

I just realized the sunrise/sunset characters may just have to re-summon and re-channel their spirits. The mage character is the one I started thinking about how expensive it would get re-summoning all the time, but, my mistake, they do not have to worry about the time constraint.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Oct 25 2007, 09:33 AM
Post #9


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



QUOTE (tisoz @ Oct 25 2007, 06:58 PM)
It still does not address the overall sunrise/sunset rule.

Why would it address the Sunrise/Sunset rule unless something in that section alters or affects the rule in a different manner than the norm? Since no mention is made of any exceptions to the general Sunrise/Sunset rule in the section on Channeling, it seems clear to me that the rule affects Channeling as normal.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ryu
post Oct 25 2007, 10:23 AM
Post #10


Awakened Asset
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,464
Joined: 9-April 05
From: AGS, North German League
Member No.: 7,309



I´m with Fortune. Spirits end any task and return to their home plane when the "sun visibility state" changes. Any change to that should be explicit.

And doesn´t this need an [SR3]-tag? Just noticed the "mages are unconcerned" bit on 2nd notice (writing this).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Oct 25 2007, 10:58 AM
Post #11


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,006
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



This not being the SR4 forum, why on earth would it need an [SR3] tag?

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
tisoz
post Oct 25 2007, 04:00 PM
Post #12


Free Spirit
*******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,944
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Bloomington, IN UCAS
Member No.: 1,920



QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 25 2007, 05:33 AM)
QUOTE (tisoz @ Oct 25 2007, 06:58 PM)
It still does not address the overall sunrise/sunset rule.

Why would it address the Sunrise/Sunset rule unless something in that section alters or affects the rule in a different manner than the norm? Since no mention is made of any exceptions to the general Sunrise/Sunset rule in the section on Channeling, it seems clear to me that the rule affects Channeling as normal.

No mention of an exception? One could argue the rule that was quoted prior to my statement you quoted defines how long the channeling lasts, regardless of terminator. Does it make your opinion stronger by ignoring the only actual rule we are given?

As far as marking it only SR3, I would welcome SR4 input if it helped clarify the matter. I am not overly familiar with all the new rules and some of the implications arising from them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pendaric
post Oct 25 2007, 05:24 PM
Post #13


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 993
Joined: 5-December 05
From: Crying in the wilderness
Member No.: 8,047



Personal preference time.

As stated I would go with the path that the large number of karma to get the metamagic and a whacky load of drain at the end of the exercise, means the magical event that occurs in normal mystical circumstances is circumvented by the mystic change performed by the metamagic, hence creating a different set of mystic circumstances allowing the use of channeling to its normal time limit. (phew)

Of course the counter argument is equally valid in a different light.
So.
Personal preference time.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Oct 25 2007, 09:44 PM
Post #14


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



QUOTE (tisoz)
No mention of an exception? One could argue the rule that was quoted prior to my statement you quoted defines how long the channeling lasts, regardless of terminator. Does it make your opinion stronger by ignoring the only actual rule we are given?

Pretty much all abilities, powers, metamagics and the like have a duration. That does not mean that those individual durations override something like the Sunrise/Sunset limitation.

You are arguing quite hard for this. If you want to do it for your game, you should feel free, as you know. I just can't see how you are rationalizing this being some kind of 'official' loophole though, as you are really having to stretch to find ways to ignore the basic limitations on non-Bound Spirits.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Oct 25 2007, 09:46 PM
Post #15


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



QUOTE (Pendaric)
As stated I would go with the path that the large number of karma to get the metamagic and a whacky load of drain at the end of the exercise, means the magical event that occurs in normal mystical circumstances is circumvented by the mystic change performed by the metamagic, hence creating a different set of mystic circumstances allowing the use of channeling to its normal time limit. (phew)

And I think that if you want your Spirit to hang around and ignore the Sunrise/Sunset limitation, you need to use Binding, just like everyone else.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pendaric
post Oct 25 2007, 10:59 PM
Post #16


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 993
Joined: 5-December 05
From: Crying in the wilderness
Member No.: 8,047



SR3

Still personal preference time.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Oct 25 2007, 11:48 PM
Post #17


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



QUOTE (Pendaric)
SR3

Then play a Hermetic! :P :D

QUOTE
Still personal preference time.


As evidenced by the 'I think' part of my post{s}. ;) :)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ryu
post Oct 27 2007, 02:06 PM
Post #18


Awakened Asset
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,464
Joined: 9-April 05
From: AGS, North German League
Member No.: 7,309



QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
This not being the SR4 forum, why on earth would it need an [SR3] tag?

~J

Well, because this is not the SR3 forum either. Any thread regarding that system should be clearly marked. Cuts down confusion, especially for those who only know SR4.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CircuitBoyBlue
post Oct 29 2007, 05:38 PM
Post #19


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 830
Joined: 3-April 04
From: Columbus, Ohio
Member No.: 6,215



QUOTE (tisoz)
Is this enough to overcome the pull of the terminator (used as the astronomical term denoting the change from light to dark.)?

QUOTE


No clue. But when I get addicted to cocaine and learn how to play guitar, "the Pull of the Terminator" is going to be the name of my first rock opera, and it's going to be about dragons and Cthulhu.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Oct 29 2007, 05:54 PM
Post #20


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,006
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



QUOTE (Ryu)
Well, because this is not the SR3 forum either.

I'm not sure why you think that, given that it's fairly clearly labelled the Shadowrun forum.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mfb
post Oct 29 2007, 05:54 PM
Post #21


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 11,410
Joined: 1-October 03
From: Pittsburgh
Member No.: 5,670



QUOTE (tisoz)
No mention of an exception? One could argue the rule that was quoted prior to my statement you quoted defines how long the channeling lasts, regardless of terminator. Does it make your opinion stronger by ignoring the only actual rule we are given?

it also doesn't mention that wound modifiers apply to the channeling test. therefore, they must not?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Riley37
post Nov 1 2007, 10:13 AM
Post #22


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 573
Joined: 17-September 07
Member No.: 13,319



What if you summon an air spirit, have it use Movement on your aircraft, and then keep flying west so that you stay ahead of the terminator? One service... for 100+ hours? If you have the spirit aid a flying drone with electric engine powered by solar panels on wings, then one service lasting for the rest of the Sixth World (or mechanical failure)?

That would be kinda unfair to the spirit, eh?

Mercifully, you can't also task a machine sprite to keep the drone Stabilized forever, because those run for only 8 hours, because techie sleep/wake cycles have little to do with daylight.

Mi-maxing mages do all their Summoning just after local sunset/sunrise. Does the spirit world dread "rush hour" when the sun rises over Seattle? What if all the spirits on the part of the Astral that's parallel to Seattle, go elsewhere at dawn to avoid getting summoned?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Nov 1 2007, 11:17 AM
Post #23


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,006
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



QUOTE (Riley37)
That would be kinda unfair to the spirit, eh?

No more than it is unfair to the plane.

QUOTE (Riley37)
Does the spirit world dread "rush hour" when the sun rises over Seattle?

Do cars and freeways dread "rush hour"?

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
darthmord
post Nov 1 2007, 07:19 PM
Post #24


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,245
Joined: 27-April 07
From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia
Member No.: 11,548



QUOTE (Riley37)
Mi-maxing mages do all their Summoning just after local sunset/sunrise. Does the spirit world dread "rush hour" when the sun rises over Seattle? What if all the spirits on the part of the Astral that's parallel to Seattle, go elsewhere at dawn to avoid getting summoned?

Why would they? It's always sunrise and sunset somewhere in the world.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Riley37
post Nov 2 2007, 12:38 AM
Post #25


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 573
Joined: 17-September 07
Member No.: 13,319



And it's also *not* sunrise or sunset in the rest of the world, so if a spirit moves a bit, its odds of getting summoned could drop dramatically, if summoning has anything to do with the location of summoner and spirit.

Yes, the kami of the freeway does indeed dislike rush hour. Or exults in it. One or the other.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 08:13 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.