 Non-Cyber Cyberzombie?, Can you pull a Cyberzombie off w/o Cyber |
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 Oct 28 2007, 08:03 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 29-December 06 Member No.: 10,483  |
Now I know that Cybermancy is a long difficult procedure, which involves pushing a metahuman past where they should die due to essence loss. However can you get the same affect by pushing them past the point of essence loss using bioware/geneware instead? Sans of course the memory implant you have to put in to keep the CZ from forgetting it is itself.
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Oct 28 2007, 08:15 AM
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#2
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Sure. It's not easy of course, because a Delta version of everything Bioware you want out of the basic book comes in for about 4 Essence points, but it can be done with the extras from Augmentation. It's expensive though. Total package sets you back about 6-8 million nuyen. You are, however, pretty awesome.
-Frank |
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Oct 28 2007, 08:44 AM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
I know you wrote the cyberzombie rules, but the rules don't say all your cyberware has to be delta. I posted a thread about how to build a cyberzombie for cheap out of used standard parts: We can rebuild him...but I don't want to spend a lot of money
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Oct 28 2007, 09:30 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 6-September 02 Member No.: 3,234 |
Meet the Genetic Superman on a Budget, All-Bio/Geneware "Biozombie" with Type 0. Since Type 0 is bestowed by having a particular kind of genome, buying the Quality during the character's life can be justified by genetic treatment, espeically the SOTA-pushing, experimental one that a cyberzombie clinic may pull off. As Frank said, you can reach negative Essence by loading up all the appropriate Delta Bioware and Geneware from both the BBB and Augmentation. You will indeed be pretty awesome in the superhuman department. Anything but a double-digit adept initiate will be your inferior in the physical combat arena (and some good perks in the social infleunce/disguise/brainpower areas). |
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Oct 28 2007, 10:43 AM
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#5
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Whats "Type 0" about if you don´t care about lost essense? This would be a purely economic decision if cybermancy had an actual price tag, but here we are looking to go negative on purpose.
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Oct 28 2007, 12:54 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 6-September 02 Member No.: 3,234 |
You are quite right, but I was answering to Frank who was complaining about the bill of stuffing a biozombie with delta bioware. Of course, it also seems you don't have to use delta. Or better, presently I don't remember whether in SR4 a biozmbie would reap any significant benefit from using delta bioware instead of basic grade. In SR3, IIRC it was more resilient to damage and cyberzombies had to use delta. This topic needs a comprehensive list of all compatible augmentation bioware and geneware that could be stuffed in a biozombie, to check whether it makes more sense to use basic or delta. Where I put my SR4 books ? Do we keep it purely biological, besides the IMS, or do we add also nanohives to the mix, and just spurn cyber ? |
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Oct 28 2007, 05:26 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
I've done both cyber and bio near-zombies with the intent of dropping a spirit in them (IMHO CyberAlly with any decent karma beats CZ hands down). Cyber is just plain a lot cheaper, and by using delta, you can actually stay positive essence with a full chrome body (and like 19 armor+full augmented stats), by using bio for just a few elements (like IPs, since Wired Reflex 3 is your worst essence-eater). You can have just about every piece of really useful gear there is for ~ :nuyen: 5M, and you don't even need to fiddle with the CZ process or the attendent insanity (the downside, of course, is that you have to get the mage karma, and the CA is inherently loyal to him, not the corp).
That said, bio has the big advantage of being stealthy, which I assume is what you're going for here. One word of warning, though--CZs, bio or not, will set off any kind of magical security, and freak out mages and their spirits. I *think* that's another case where the CyberAlly wins, because a good merge is harder to detect, but I haven't played with that aspect much yet. Basically, I'd only recommend CZs for those cases where you need an almost-unstoppable, inhuman killer that scares the pants off of everybody before it kills them, and can be disposed of if necessary with few loose ends. Otherwise, use a living or a spirit. |
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Oct 28 2007, 05:29 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
And when wouldn't you need one of those? :) |
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Oct 28 2007, 05:33 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
For the same reason you use runners instead of your elite tactical teams. :P
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Oct 28 2007, 09:53 PM
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#10
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
plausible deniability?
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Oct 28 2007, 09:59 PM
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#11
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
... ;)
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Oct 28 2007, 11:22 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 6-September 02 Member No.: 3,234 |
As one can tell from this table, using delta bioware (and/or developing the Type 0 System Quality by genetic treatment) is necessary to keep the total Essence Cost within -6 to develop an all-bioware/geneware biozombie, and even then you can almost but not quite cram all that is theoretically compatible and useful to build the ultimate augmented biozombie.
Basic Bioware Dynamic Chameleon Skin 0.2 7,000¥ Bone Density Augmentation 4 1.2 80,000¥ Cat’s Eyes (*) 0.1 7,500¥ Chemical Gland (Signal Drug x2) 0.6 40,000¥ Digestive Expansion 0.5 20,000¥ Enhanced Articulation 0.3 40,000¥ Enhanced Pheromone Receptors 3 0.3 15,000¥ Extended Volume 3 0.3 12,000¥ False Front (Mimic Option) 4 0.8 58,000¥ Gecko Hands 0.1 12,000¥ Gills 0.2 12,000¥ Hearing Enhancement 0.1 5,000¥ Muscle Augmentation 4 0.8 28,000¥ Muscle Toner 4 0.8 32,000¥ Nictitating Membrane 0.1 2,000¥ Orthoskin 3 0.75 90,000¥ Dragon’s Hide 0.1 7,000¥ Electroshock 0.25 25,000¥ Smart insulation 0.1 12,000¥ Pathogenic Defense 6 0.6 10,000¥ Platelet Factories 0.2 25,000¥ Spidersilk Gland (wrist x2) 0.6 80,000¥ Suprathyroid Gland 0.7 45,000¥ Symbiotes 3 0.6 30,000¥ Synthacardium 3 0.3 40,000¥ Tactile Sensitivity 0.2 4,000¥ Tailored Pheromones 3 0.6 75,000¥ Toxin Extractor 6 1.2 120,000¥ Troll’s Eyes (*) 0.1 8,000¥ Vocal Range Enhancer 0.1 12,000¥ Total Basic Bioware 12.8 Neural Bioware Cerebral Booster 3 0.6 30,000¥ Echolocation 0.1 15,000¥ Mnemonic Enhancer 3 0.3 22,500¥ Reception Enhancer 3 0.6 60,000¥ Reflex Recorder (skill groups) 4 0.8 40,000¥ Sleep Regulator 0.15 10,000¥ Synaptic Booster 3 1.5 240,000¥ Trauma Damper 0.2 40,000¥ Total Neural Bioware 4.25 Geneware Genewipe 0.2 60,000¥ Masque 0.1 25,000¥ Genetic Optimization 8 1.6 360,000¥ Print Removal 0.1 25,000¥ Daredrenaline 0.1 40,000¥ Double Elastin 0.2 12,000¥ Dynomitan 0.2 30,000¥ Hyper-Glucagon 0.1 25,000¥ Magnesense 0.1 20,000¥ Neo-EPO 0.2 35,000¥ PuSHeD 0.1 15,000¥ Qualia 0.4 40,000¥ Reakt 0.4 45,000¥ Vegsin 0.1 15,000¥ Low Oxygen Tolerance 0.5 35,000¥ Pollution Tolerance 0.3 35,000¥ Radiation Tolerance 0.5 35,000¥ Total Geneware 5.2 (*) They can be combined as per house rule |
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Oct 29 2007, 02:59 AM
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#13
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Aren't there a couple of Edges that let you reduce the essence costs from bio and geneware? Just take those, and then load up on Delta-grade :)
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Oct 29 2007, 03:00 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
Well, also, there's not a great need to have *all* of that stuffed in there.
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Oct 29 2007, 04:53 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 29-December 06 Member No.: 10,483 |
Actually I believe that having the qualities that make you have to spend more essense are actually better for you as a CZ. Anyways I was simply considering the biozombie partly as a though experiment, and partly to get that lovely Nemesis flavor. Also I'm a fan of the unstoppable killing machines looking completely nonthreatening. So a little sariman looking biozombie that can beat the ever living crap out of a troll is attractive to me.
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Oct 29 2007, 05:11 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
Again, though, the problem is that a pure BZ will still stick out like a sore thumb, just not to MAD scanners.
Being your own background count is *not* stealthy. |
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Oct 29 2007, 07:09 AM
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#17
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Only 1 in 100 people will care about your background count. And if you drop that guy down to 0 Magic, he can't pinpoint the source of the background count or even know that it has a source such as the biozombie, since most background counts do not have a mobile source.
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Oct 29 2007, 08:10 AM
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#18
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I vehemently disagree. The Lower your Essence goes, the more negative qualities you get, the larger the area of your personal Background Count (and thus, the harder ti is to use tactically). While your magical powers increase (giving you a bigger ItNW and Attribute caps), the positive limits of those are actually achieved quite quickly. The optimal Essence is about -3, anything more than that just isn't worth it. And within the 9 points of Essence cap, there's plenty of stuff to throw in that would make you more awesome. -Frank |
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Oct 29 2007, 12:14 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 6-September 02 Member No.: 3,234 |
Well, yes, there's not a strict need to stuff al of that, but since you go all the way and and trouble to make a biozombie, why not making him/her as maximum awesome as you can ? You may not stuff *everything* that I've listed, but with some minor cuts to the list, you may stuff 12 Essence's worth of delta utterly unconspicous by mundane means, self-repairing bio/gene augmentation goodness in one body. Type 0 System helps keeping the bill down. |
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Oct 29 2007, 04:16 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
And people always seem to forget, you don't necessarily want the cyberzombie's essence to go as low as possible. It makes the procedure more dangerous, increasing the very real possibility that the subject just won't survive. The rules say that -6 is as low as anyone is know to have taken it. It does not say that that is standard or simple to do.
Granted, there might be a cyberzombie antagonist in my campaign, and he's got almost -6 essence (like most GMs who've bothered with a CZ, I think), but he's really a plot device. The idea is that his makers used an experimental, apparently safer procedure, which actually causes tremendous psychological trauma. Even more than for most CZs. |
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Oct 30 2007, 12:59 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 29-December 06 Member No.: 10,483 |
Well to be fair the most fun with a CZ is the "something goes subtly wrong" line on glitches. Really, your multi million nuyen killing machine is having some design issues sounds like a situation that would go south at near transonic speeds.
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