 Immortality, A modest proposal (aka pushing buttons) |
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 Oct 30 2007, 03:07 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455  |
Here's another silly spirit idea.
Given that there are lots of free spirits out there, and surely some of them can be bought--if paid enough karma, or favors, or whatnot--why are the really rich not all immortal? Is there any reason for Damien Knight to allow himself to grow old and die, when he can send dozens of initiated mages out to the metaplanes to find a spirit willing to cut a deal? Karma? He can make any number of people rich in exchange for their karma. Money? Yeah. Favors? He's got a small army of mages. So, a Formula Pact (and maybe a Life Pact, too) in exchange for taking care of that bug problem leaking into your metaplane? And if he can do it, where does it logically end? |
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Oct 30 2007, 03:10 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 29-October 05 Member No.: 7,908 |
Spirit Pacts for immortality, plus leonization for the wealthy means that the downtrodden shall forever remain under the well trained heel of the modern immortal overclass. Not just in the metaphorical sense, but the literal sense. Even corporations, as legal entities, are immortal in a sense beyond that of the employees who form them.
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Oct 30 2007, 03:20 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 3-May 06 From: On the Run Member No.: 8,521 |
Are you talking about the Immunity to Age from the Formula/Spirit Pact?
If so, I can see a couple of reasons as per pg 108 of Street Magic. 1. You can now be used (or use yourself) as the spirit's formula for any purpose. Depending on who that spirit has fragged off.... you might become a high profile target for someone wanting to use the spirit. 2. Ending the pact without the death of one or both participants usually isn't possible..... <snip> Anytime a character and a spirit have a pact, either party may be used as a sympathetic link to the other or to astrally track the other. Umm... dunno about you, but it sounds like it could turn into a really bad deal to me - especially if its an initiatory group that gets ahold of the spirit. |
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Oct 30 2007, 03:20 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 184 Joined: 29-August 03 Member No.: 5,553 |
I thought this thread was going to be about ghouls.
The title got my hopes up... |
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Oct 30 2007, 03:45 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
Same way it ends for great dragons and immortal elves: when a rival for your possessions decides to acquire them by terminating you, or when someone whose goals conflict with yours decides to terminate you, and succeeds. Immunity to aging != never dying. That's one of the theoretical advantages of investing everything into Initiations and Magic and skills: none of it can be effectively taken from you, so the motive to attack you is reduced as long as you're not interfering with anyone else's goals. (Is that accurate, or are skills and Magic stealable?) If you mean where's the boundary between those who can obtain immortality and those who can't, well, your example of Damien Knight includes those who help him obtain it, eg employees. If it takes a team of, say, 19 people working together to maintain immortality for 1 person, then at most 5% of humanity can become immortal, and that's only if they can keep the other 19 motivated. If, on another hand, a cabal of 20 mages can work together to obtain immortality for each other, then that changes a bit, but Joe Average doesn't qualify for that cabal. |
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Oct 30 2007, 03:57 AM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
"Millions wish for immortality that don't know what to do on a rainy Sunday afternoon."
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Oct 30 2007, 04:06 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
Ahh, but a Formula Pact is forever (as noted, for better and for worse), so there's nothing to be maintained... just a one-time transaction with a spirit.
And yes, there are risks involved... but there are risks involved for *breathing* if you're rich and powerful. If done intelligently (additional quests to hide the link, disguise the "branding" in the aura, intelligent selection of a spirit unlikely to cause "problems", etc.), those risks can be more or less managed. Again, this is something that the rich or well-connected (or mages with a *lot* of free time for metaplanar legwork) would be doing. But would the costs ever really outweigh the benefit of agelessness? And yes, a cabal of 20 mages could get it for all of them, if they manage to swing the deal that way. One additional note... the most likely spirits to cooperate, I'd think, would be the very weak (low Logic, low Social, more likely to be swayed by a couple dozen karma), and the very, *very* strong (as in, strong enough to beat down a great dragon if it tried to call it down and bind it), who could afford to "sell" pacts to a number of parties at relatively low risk. |
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Oct 30 2007, 04:10 AM
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#8
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Left unchecked, aging will without a doubt kill you. Even a fairly onerous deal with a fairly malevolent spirit becomes fairly attractive as you close in on the point of no return. Leonization is far from perfected, after all.
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Oct 30 2007, 04:13 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 246 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,198 |
Positive Quality: Spirit Pact (1). Formula Pact.
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Oct 30 2007, 04:17 AM
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#10
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
There are worse things than death in this world, worse by far.
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Oct 30 2007, 04:20 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 236 Joined: 17-October 07 Member No.: 13,735 |
Leonization is far from perfected it has only been around for about thirty years. I am sure folks with ALOT of money make sure that research in perfecting the process is always pushing forward.
Even with the GM imposed limited number of times Leonization can be done, if technology keeps pushing forward, a wealthy person who does it only every 50 years should only have to go through it twice before some form of sustainable Unaging is discovered. And this doesn't even include the Elves. Given their lifespans of 'hundreds of years', Leonization should be perfected before they hit middle age. |
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Oct 30 2007, 05:25 AM
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#12
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
If I were immortal I'd make a Deus Ex mod. No shit!
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Oct 30 2007, 06:20 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 249 Joined: 2-November 06 From: Bozeman, MT Member No.: 9,762 |
If I were immortal I'd try to pull some really shady real-estate speculation. Like say, buying up the rights to the kupier belt (after all, no one is using it right now) and any other parts of the solar system I can swing. I would go for something like the Astroid belt but it has much more foreseeable economic uses and so some people might catch on.
Actually this might make for a good 'run idea. Some Immortal Elf hires some runners to cause the opposition to his buying up parts of the solar system to go away, via any means necessary. Mmm... I like it already. |
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Oct 30 2007, 06:52 AM
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#14
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
sounds like modern day copyright laws to me... |
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Oct 30 2007, 06:53 AM
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#15
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
now thats deep, where did you find it? |
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Oct 30 2007, 07:12 AM
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#16
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Susan Ertz, Anger in the Sky.
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Oct 30 2007, 10:53 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 6-September 02 Member No.: 3,234 |
This is so very true. Welcome to the immortal neo-aristocracy. It also means, since the Awakened are much more likely to accomplish a (Formula + Life + Dream) combo Spirit Pact on their own, without need of outside assistance, that over time a greater and greater portion of the Immortal Overclass will be made of the Awakened. Say hello to Theran Empire Mk. II. |
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Oct 30 2007, 01:47 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
One could also assume that the spirits offering these sorts of pacts are exceedingly rare or hard to find. Maybe they require you do something to gain their notice. Of course, if you can't find the spirit without doing this thing, you won't know what it is you need to do to have it notice you. Magic is fickle. That's why pacts aren't a substitute for leonization.
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Oct 30 2007, 02:11 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Typically, people who seek immortality are generally done in by their own hubris, one way or the other. (Of course, its possible the legends were written by disgruntled people who were jealous of the spirit pacts.) But it's hard to imagine a SR game with a timetable that would be affected by immortal creatures, or that a timeline with immortal creatures would really be all that different. I don't think immortality would automatically make people any more competent or any less short-sighted.
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Oct 30 2007, 02:17 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 6-September 02 Member No.: 3,234 |
Maybe. Or maybe, more likely, magic is still relatively young, spirit pacts are younger still, and awareness of spirit pacts as an option for immortlaity as not spread around much yet: if we assume, as usually, that publication of a new technology or magical technique in a SR sourcebook mirrors its getting root in the in-game setting, spirit pacts are a rather recent development. Of course, in the information-saturation SR world, social awareness of new useful toys gets around quickly. Morevoer, likely free spirits are not that common yet for the same reason (there's has been only a 60-odd years for them to accumulate in real numbers). And spirit pacts are an option that comes much more easily to the Awakened, who don't need outside assistance to use it. That said, nothing really stops a clever and resourceful magician or mystic adept from creating an Ally spirit, release it, then strike some spirit pacts with it. |
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Oct 30 2007, 02:55 PM
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#21
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
It's also extremely likely that there already are a few powerful corporate heads out there who have gone ahead and made spirit pacts, they just aren't advertising it.
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Oct 30 2007, 04:26 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
Oh, certainly. I was trying to stay away from that one, because... well, it's too cheesy for even me. That said, AFAICT, per RAW, you can grab a F1 ally, write its formula specifically to keep it loyal to you after being freed (this is sort of assumed under the rules, and there are no mechanics for reinforcing ally loyalty, but RPing can't hurt), release it, and feed it enough karma to initiate and grab some useful abilities--and then drop pacts on you. Heck, other than GM intervention (ICly, it would be portrayed by just low odds of the spirit successfully acquiring them), there's not much standing between you and Hidden Life/Wealth. |
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Oct 30 2007, 05:29 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
I would think that since the spirits have only been around long enough for one leonization to really be necessary that people very well may have spirit pacts it just isn't showing yet.
Chris |
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Oct 30 2007, 08:02 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 6-September 02 Member No.: 3,234 |
Better yet, Street Magic writeup of Allies quite strongly indicates that an Ally which is treated decentyl by the creator/summoner will never rebel or grow resentful. Therefore, if a magician puposefully frees an Ally whom he treated decently and explains the reasons of the process, it is extremely likely that the former ally free spirit will consent eagerly to strike some spirit pacts. And in the end, I wouldn't see it as cheesy in the least. After all, if a magician goes through all the effort and trouble and Karma expense of creating an Ally, relasing it and losing its services, in order to strike a Spirit Pact (spending some more Karma yet), he deserves those spirit pacts. The Formula-Life-Dream combo pact is quite nifty and useful to have, but so is the service of a well-built Ally. |
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Oct 30 2007, 08:15 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
All of this of course assumes that this freed ally has an interest in or ability to enter into all of these pacts. Correct me if I missed something in Street Magic, but the rules don't say that every free spirit is, by their nature, able to enter into any pact. In fact, since pacts can take almost any form, not merely those listed, I would say it varies quite a bit from one spirit to the next which pacts they can enter. Or even if they can at all.
That's my source of game balance here. The ability to convince a spirit that a pact is a good idea is half the job. The other half is finding the spirit you need. And, in terms of flavor and style, I prefer the idea of the spirit who approaches the person with the offer. But that's a personal preference. |
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