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> Some Adept Rules Questions, Regarding various forms of stacking
CorpExec
post Nov 3 2007, 01:28 AM
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Hi all! I'm working on a character as an intellectual exercise, and I came across some questions.

First off, does the Adept Power "Combat Sense" count towards Reaction's augmented maximum? I'm fairly sure it doesnt, as it's more like a skill specialty in my reading, but I'd like some kind of more definite answer.

Also, when buying a Weapon Focus, does the original cost of the weapon get included, or is it purchased separately?

Thanks all, and I'll post the finished character for comments when I'm done.
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Fortune
post Nov 3 2007, 01:33 AM
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QUOTE (CorpExec)
First off, does the Adept Power "Combat Sense" count towards Reaction's augmented maximum? I'm fairly sure it doesnt, as it's more like a skill specialty in my reading, but I'd like some kind of more definite answer.

No. It is a Dice Pool modifier.

QUOTE
Also, when buying a Weapon Focus, does the original cost of the weapon get included, or is it purchased separately?


The weapon price is (usually) pretty trivial. If purchasing a Weapon Focus, you can assume that the actual weapon cost is included. When creating one, on the other hand, the weapon's cost has to be taken into account.
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CorpExec
post Nov 3 2007, 02:34 AM
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Thanks for the quick reply!

I still need to write up the backstory as I have it in my head, and tweak some points, but I'll post soon. The concept is that he's an Adept whose power stems from his desire to avenge his parents' displacement from Ireland when it became Tir Nan Og. He's a proficient runner, but currently suffering from a breakdown that has caused him to get a bit rusty and lose self confidence....you see, he fell in love with an Elf, the people he perceives as his foes.
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Fortune
post Nov 3 2007, 02:53 AM
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QUOTE (CorpExec)
... he fell in love with an Elf ...

The horror! :eek:

Seriously though, sounds cool. :)
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Magus
post Nov 5 2007, 01:08 PM
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You just made Fortune all chummy. Elf lover boy.
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Dakka Dakka
post Nov 14 2008, 12:28 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 3 2007, 02:33 AM) *
No. It is a Dice Pool modifier.

Are you sure? The core book explicitly statest that "The character gains one die per level for Reaction on Surprise Tests". If it were only a dicepool modifier, why is the word reaction in the sentence? Is there any official statement?

While you could easily argue against the Hardcap on the Defense Tests, the maximum on Surprise Tests is pretty clear to me.

How about Bone Lacing? The phrase is similar, but "die" is not mentioned. Can this Cyberware exceed the Augmented Attribute?
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Fortune
post Nov 14 2008, 02:04 AM
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I am sure. Anything that only augments only a part of an Attribute's function is not considered an actual Attribute Modifier, and therefore not subject to those limitations. The only limit on the Combat Sense Power is the character's Magic rating.
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TheOOB
post Nov 14 2008, 07:31 AM
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Unless it says it increases the attribute, it does not.
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Dakka Dakka
post Nov 14 2008, 08:27 AM
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So you're saying that "plus one die to an attribute for..." as in combat sense is a dicepool modifier, just as "plus one die for..." as in the deflection spell(Street Magic)? I don't get why there are two different phrases if they are supposed to mean the same thing. In that case the attribute is just useless filler.

For me the description of Bone Lacing means the Body bonus is not subject to the AP rules but to the Attribute cap, and does not confer the other boni of a real increase in the Body Attribute like increased dicepools in other BOD+Skill test or the extra boxes in damage overflow or the physical condition monitor.
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Fortune
post Nov 14 2008, 08:51 AM
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You are of course free to play the game the way you like. I merely answered the question that was asked. According to canon, unless the text for a particular item/power/etc. specifically states that it adds directly to the Attribute (with no mention of dice or pools or modifiers), then it is not subject to the limitations on Attribute augmentation.

This is the same for Skills. There are very few things that actually add to the Skill rating (as opposed to being a Pool modifier). Only an Adept's Improved Ability Power, Reflex Recorders and something I can never remember from Augmentation (or Arsenal) actually increase the Skill itself.
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Dakka Dakka
post Nov 14 2008, 09:11 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 14 2008, 09:51 AM) *
According to canon, unless the text for a particular item/power/etc. specifically states that it adds directly to the Attribute (with no mention of dice or pools or modifiers), then it is not subject to the limitations on Attribute augmentation.
Can you give me proof of that? I cannot find any mention of that interpretation in the canon books. I like it but i haven't seen it.

QUOTE
This is the same for Skills. There are very few things that actually add to the Skill rating (as opposed to being a Pool modifier). Only an Adept's Improved Ability Power, Reflex Recorders and something I can never remember from Augmentation (or Arsenal) actually increase the Skill itself.
We are in agreement there.

A bit off topic but i gotta ask: the combination of Titanium Bone Lacing and Bone Density Augmentation 4 for a +7 Body and +1/+1 armor for damage resistance tests is allowed accoring to RAW even for the Body Maxed Troll?
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Fortune
post Nov 14 2008, 01:52 PM
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It's a good sign that my interpretation is correct when nobody on Dumpshock chimed in to correct me for over a year. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Unfortunately I am not in a position to hunt for solid proof at the moment. Maybe someone else can help out.

Edit: Note that the Skill limitation applies to the current level of the skill in question, while the Augmented Attribute limitation (when it does apply) is applicable to the Racial Maximum, regardless of the character's actual Attribute rating.
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Fortune
post Nov 14 2008, 01:55 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 14 2008, 08:11 PM) *
A bit off topic but i gotta ask: the combination of Titanium Bone Lacing and Bone Density Augmentation 4 for a +7 Body and +1/+1 armor for damage resistance tests is allowed accoring to RAW even for the Body Maxed Troll?


Form the SR4 FAQ ...

QUOTE (SR4 FAQ)
Are bone lacing cyberware and bone density bioware compatible?

No. A character can have both, but only the highest bonus would apply.

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Dakka Dakka
post Nov 14 2008, 02:39 PM
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This does not however mean that the incease in body may exceed the augmented maximum. A human character with BOD 6 and without the Exceptional Attribute quality, would he have a Body of 9 or 10 for damage resistance tests after he installed Bone Density Augmentation 4?
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Malachi
post Nov 14 2008, 05:13 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 14 2008, 09:52 AM) *
Edit: Note that the Skill limitation applies to the current level of the skill in question, while the Augmented Attribute limitation (when it does apply) is applicable to the Racial Maximum, regardless of the character's actual Attribute rating.

Interesting distinction. In my games I've always applied the same limit of 1.5 times your current natural rating as the cap on improving an Attribute.

Also, now that I'm looking at things a little closer I see that Wired Reflexes actually confer a bonus to Reaction, and thus are not limited by Augmented Maximums. So a combo of Reaction Enhancer and Wired Reflexes is possible.
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TheOOB
post Nov 14 2008, 06:36 PM
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QUOTE (Malachi @ Nov 14 2008, 01:13 PM) *
Also, now that I'm looking at things a little closer I see that Wired Reflexes actually confer a bonus to Reaction, and thus are not limited by Augmented Maximums. So a combo of Reaction Enhancer and Wired Reflexes is possible.


You are mistaken. Wired reflexes provides a bonus to reaction, not reaction dice pools, which is the key difference. A bonus to an attribute increases your augmented attribute and is subject to your racial augmented maximum. A bonus to a dice pool on the otherhand stacks with all other bonuses unless specifically mentioned otherwise and has no cap except what the GM throws at you(I generally frown on dice pool bonuses that are bigger then your attribute).
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Fortune
post Nov 14 2008, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 15 2008, 01:39 AM) *
This does not however mean that the incease in body may exceed the augmented maximum. A human character with BOD 6 and without the Exceptional Attribute quality, would he have a Body of 9 or 10 for damage resistance tests after he installed Bone Density Augmentation 4?


Once again, Bone Density does not actually increase the entire Body Attribute. It merely adds dice to damage resistance tests and increases Unarmed Combat damage. Since it doesn't increase the actual Body of the character (it doesn't help with toxin resistance, or skills linked to Body), the Augmented Attribute limitation does not apply. A human character can indeed have a (natural) Body of 6 and 4 levels of Bone Density, but that same human could not have 4 levels of the Improved Body Adept Power (as that does increase Body, and is therefore subject to the cap).
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Fortune
post Nov 14 2008, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE (Malachi @ Nov 15 2008, 04:13 AM) *
So a combo of Reaction Enhancer and Wired Reflexes is possible.


While most people I know rule that the combination can be used together, the SR4 FAQ specifically disallows them to be combined. It makes no such ruling about Synaptic Boosters though.
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Dakka Dakka
post Nov 14 2008, 07:07 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 14 2008, 07:37 PM) *
Once again, Bone Density does not actually increase the entire Body Attribute.
Correct.
QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 14 2008, 07:37 PM) *
It merely adds dice to damage resistance tests and increases Unarmed Combat damage.
This is where you are wrong. It does not provide bonus dice to certain tests. It increases the Attribute for certain tests. There has to be a difference since there are also devices that exactly provide extra dice to dicepools (e.g. smartlink). If the developpers actually meant it as a simple dicepool bonus they could have simply removed the word Reaction in the combat sense description and Body in the Bone Density description.

Btw. does anyone know if there are developpers among the members of dumpshock, so we could get an official ruling?
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Tarantula
post Nov 14 2008, 07:20 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 14 2008, 12:07 PM) *
Correct.
This is where you are wrong. It does not provide bonus dice to certain tests. It increases the Attribute for certain tests. There has to be a difference since there are also devices that exactly provide extra dice to dicepools (e.g. smartlink). If the developpers actually meant it as a simple dicepool bonus they could have simply removed the word Reaction in the combat sense description and Body in the Bone Density description.

Btw. does anyone know if there are developpers among the members of dumpshock, so we could get an official ruling?


Emphasis mine.

SR4, 187, "The character gains one die per level for Reaction on Surprise Tests and when defending against ranged and melee attacks."

SR4, 333, "Plastic bone lacing confers a bonus of +1 to the Body attribute for damage resistance tests. Aluminum bone lacing confers a +2 Body bonus for damage resistance tests and a +1 Impact armor bonus (cumulative with worn armor). Titanium bone lacing confers bonuses of +3 to Body for damage resistance tests and +1 to both Ballistic and Impact armor. "

It does provide bonus dice to the tests. Combat sense explicitly states it is an extra dice per level of the ability, and not an increase to the attribute. Bone lacing explicitly states this is a bonus to the attribute, and not increasing the rating.

I can see a very clear reason for having it explicitly add to the body section of the damage resistance test. Armor. If it simply said "adds 4 dice to the damage resistance test" and i call a shot to avoid armor, do those 4 dice count as armor, and are negated? Or do they count as body, and remain? Obviously, they count as body and would remain. But only because they had the foresight to specifically state that it added to the body part of the test.
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Malachi
post Nov 14 2008, 07:23 PM
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QUOTE (TheOOB @ Nov 14 2008, 02:36 PM) *
You are mistaken. Wired reflexes provides a bonus to reaction, not reaction dice pools, which is the key difference. A bonus to an attribute increases your augmented attribute and is subject to your racial augmented maximum. A bonus to a dice pool on the otherhand stacks with all other bonuses unless specifically mentioned otherwise and has no cap except what the GM throws at you(I generally frown on dice pool bonuses that are bigger then your attribute).

Hmmm, you seem to be playing/interpreting things slightly differently than I do. I had traditionally made the distinction by use of the word bonus in the description, as opposed to power/'ware descriptions that state that they "increase" or "add to" the rating of the base attribute. I had interpreted that anytime something gives a bonus then Augmented Maximum doesn't apply. For example, "Plastic bone
lacing confers a bonus of +1 to the Body attribute for damage resistance tests"
and "Muscle replacement increases both the Strength and Agility attributes by its rating." In my reading, that means Bone Lacing doesn't count towards Augmented Maximum, whereas Muscle Replacement does.

Now, this could be wrong so I'd love to hear an "official" ruling on the matter.
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Dakka Dakka
post Nov 14 2008, 10:12 PM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Nov 14 2008, 08:20 PM) *
I can see a very clear reason for having it explicitly add to the body section of the damage resistance test. Armor. If it simply said "adds 4 dice to the damage resistance test" and i call a shot to avoid armor, do those 4 dice count as armor, and are negated? Or do they count as body, and remain? Obviously, they count as body and would remain. But only because they had the foresight to specifically state that it added to the body part of the test.
This is where we disagree. For me the mentioning of the attribute would be absolutely superfluous, if i agreed with your reasoning. In the damage resistance test only Armor dice can be modified by the weapon's AP. A generic dicepool modifier would be unaffected since it is not armor. The same thing goes for combat sense. Surprise and defense are modified by a number of conditions (light, wounds, movement etc.), which all add to the dicepool or substract from it. If you could get an infinite amount of bonus dice through the adept power, there would be no need for the word Reaction. Also sufficiently negative modifiers could reduce the pool to zero.

Speaking of Surprise, why does the ambusher get +6 dice for the test and the user of combat sense level 6 +6 dice to reaction for the test, if both things were the same?

As a corollary, encumbrance from armor substracts from Reaction and Agility. So even if the neagtive modifier from the armor is greater than the characters Attributes, he would still have the full amount of skill dice for tests if there are no other negative modifiers, as only the attributes are reduced.
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Fortune
post Nov 15 2008, 07:03 AM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 15 2008, 06:07 AM) *
This is where you are wrong.


No, I'm not.

QUOTE
It does not provide bonus dice to certain tests.


Tarantula listed the quote where it specifically describes a bonus. As I said earlier, you can play it however you like, but you are the only person arguing for your interpretation.
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Dakka Dakka
post Nov 15 2008, 07:16 AM
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You are right about the bonus. But this bonus does not apply to certain tests, but to a certain attribute used (among other values) for certain tests.
Can anyone tell me where i can get an official answer on this.

I'd really like to play it like you interpret it for combat sense, but since we always played it differently with bone lacing I'd like something official.
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Fortune
post Nov 15 2008, 07:44 AM
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You can always search this forum for posts by Synner (the current Line Developer) or Rob Boyle (previous line developer). There are also a host of freelancers who post here with varying dergees of regularity, but they are too numerous to list in detail. Spending a bit of time searching older threads (maybe around the time of SR4's release in '05) is probably your best bet for a more official answer.

Seriously though, a good rule of thumb for the Augmented Attribute limitation is that it only applies to those things that increase every single aspect of an Attribute. Otherwise that Attribute isn't actually raised for all intents and purposes, but merely boosted with a bonus to a limited part of that stat's domain.
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