Alternate Matrix Rules, Everyone is doing it Options

[Buster]

I don't want to obsess over the brain hacking thing because Frank had a huge post of awesome rules and detailed fluff and brain hacking was just one small part. I'll just say that I give thumbs up to the idea of brain hacking, no matter how we hammer out the mechanics.

After all, this is Shadowrun, not Cyberpunk 2020, and mages and spirits already have the ability to monkey with people's brains and perceptions. I would just be sure to push the difficulty of brain hacking to very high levels so that not just any scriptkiddie or cybersam dabbler can accomplish it. Even in Ghost in the Shell, it was a MacGuffin level ability only one hacker was capable of.

Since mages have to invest tons of BP in the form of the Magician quality, Magic attribute, skill points (which can't be used from skillsofts), and spell costs, I would say that a hacker would also have to invest that kind of BP to be able to accomplish brain hacking. Maybe it should be a technomancer-only ability (or echo) but I don't see brain hacking itself changing the flavor of Shadowrun.

We probably should just start a separate thread for brain hacking.

[Ol' Scratch]

Eh, when an entire set of house rules is built on a foundation based on faulty logic and a bad idea, it doesn't matter how good the house rules are in other areas.

Frank just seems so obsessed about a loophole he thought he found in the way a single piece of Shadowrun technology works in fluff that he built an entire set of rules around it. That's not good design, and it certainly doesn't make those rules uber. Even if you build a masterpiece on ground zero of a fault, it's all going to come crashing down sooner than later.

[Gelare]

[Fortune]

[Cthulhudreams]

How do the rules work if we remove forceable brain hacker, but leave (add?) the ability to force ably connect anything remotely electronic (including ghetto analog CCTV systems).

First brush over it would seem things still work okay?

Edit: Personally, I'm cool with the brain hacking.

[NightRain]

[Ol' Scratch]

Actually he's basing it all around an outlayer of Shadowrun tech -- 'trodes. One that he thinks works the way he wants them to work, but doesn't. And it's one that creates a seriously foolish take on the entirity of the setting.

It's far more sensible to just create a whole new set of Matrix rules from the ground up rather than trying to prove how right he is about his stupid 'trode loophole by basing an entire set of rules around it. At least that's all I'm really seeing as I look over things.

I'd rather get rid of trodes and similar technology and give players two options for dealing with the Matrix. Either direct wired connections via datajacks and similar items, or through "old school" tech like VR goggles and gloves. The clunkiness and lack of grace of the latter, alone, would lead most to pick up the former. And that solves a lot more problems than it creates (unlike "brain hacking").

[Cthulhudreams]

[kzt]

It is in 2007. What I wouldn't give for an air gap on several systems....

[Cthulhudreams]

I can only speak for Australia, but to be approved as a system to carry data beyond a certain security classification it *must* have an airgap. One way data diodes are allowed to connect a high security system to a lower security system but those don;t exist in shadowrun so I'm guessing they'd fall back to sneaker net.

For backhaul they use carriers and home grown stuff, and it has to meet a certain standard of encryption to go on the carriers, which it cannot in shadowrun (of course!) so they'd fall back to the homegrown stuff.

Now Costco today obviously doesn;t have an airgap, but today sensitive research installations do and there is no reason to assume that would change (is there?) and thats a problem with the shadowrun rules as written from a veracity perspective for frank that he outlines in his explanation and proposes a fix for. (Making airgaps useless)

(As an aside with crap encryption, the people who get the shaft are *banks* as they've always depended on the highest of high security AND broad and strong interconnects.

But then again, there is no reason not to assume that they wouldn't just put an airgap around SWIFT. That said frank has fixed banks problems to some degree with strong encryption coming back)

Network segregation is an issue I have with the shadowrun rules, so its nice to see a fix.

[FrankTrollman]

This is a special statement for Doctor Funkenstein: You are embarrassing yourself and I wold like you to shut up now.

First you came ot with a doom saying about how dangerous elements of this system would be when they got into the hands of Agent Smith and the Script Kiddies. But as neither of those exist in these rules, it was blatantly obvious that your objections were not based on a careful reading. You also said that you were going to give this rule set a pass. That's your perogative, and I am fine with that. Go about your business and make the Matrix model from the basic book function, or use another fan creation, or make your own. Any of those are perfectly OK from my perspective and I am not offended by that choic in any way.

But you keep posting vitriol on this thread. You haven't read the rules. You've already said that you aren't going to read the rules. You don't know what they say, you don't know why we chose for it to say what it says. There are elaborate and lengthy explanations for why this particular Matrix representation was chosen. Some of it is based on Shadowrun history, some of it is based on playability.

Bt you don't know. Everyone here knows that you don't know. But you keep posting. And it's embarrassing for everyone: so shut up. For the children.

-Frank

[Blade]

[Seven-7]

[Blade]

The "casually" is important here. What I meant was that even if they can do it, that's not what you'd expect from them.

1. Yes, Hacker can mimic spells, but they do it in a totally different way, they don't "cast illusion program at this guy". And when it comes down to reading minds or controlling thoughts, it's harder to do (hence not "casual"). That's not their main purpose.

2. I'd like to know how mages can possess drones. The best I can see is using a spirit with a possession tradition to possess the drone, which isn't exactly the same, and isn't that common, just like a hacker hacking a brain.

3. Defaulting to Logic for hacking test is a house rule. (and a pretty unbalanced one). Besides, you need a response 6 commlink with a system 6 to use your rating 6 program... Even without taking into account the availability, the cost is quite high for a mage.

[Ryu]

This rules should work well without brainhacking, so no big deal. The Nash equilibrium has to factor in that net access is not valued for security concerns. I see were you are coming from with the firewall 1 vs. 0 argument. Do you care to discuss this further? If so, maybe opening another thread is more productive.

The list of required gear for some decent security setup would interest me much.

For programs I suggest walking away from SR4 prices and having all matrix program available at low cost or (with a 5 pt. quality, lets say "Filesharer", for free). This would of course not include the more complicated skill softs.

[deek]

Well, I am still willing to give these rules a try, but there is still a lot of mundane details that need fleshed out before I can actually replace/use these in my game...

Here is still what I am looking for:

Program costs?

What parts of RAW are still used and what gets replaced?

Some programs use a rating, others don't.

Confusion when using terms like combat rounds, combat turns, rounds and IPs. I'd like to see a consistent and clear use of game time.

A better understanding, maybe some examples, of LOS. Where it works and where it doesn't.

You mention Matrix Stealth, but I don't see what that means anywhere.

There are a few sections (e.g. Decrypt, Encrypt and Nanopaste Trodes) that seem to have some game mechanic effects, but you do not go into any tests or "rules" on them.

I didn't see anything relating to nodes. I'm trying to conceptualize how a hacker would break into a foreign system. There is a way to Find Mind, but nowhere do I see a way to scan for active nodes (or hidden, for that matter).


One more thing...IC. Do they use programs like a hacker? You mention they can attack and trace and whatnot, but I don't see any stats or what they do against a hacker. You have it abstracted down to each network could have IC, but it wouldn't be multiple IC, just the strongest rated. So, what is the hacker fighting when IC has detected him? I guess I'd just like to see some more examples...

[Seven-7]

[Ol' Scratch]

[darthmord]

Frank, I like those rules you wrote up. They make sense and run similar to how I used to run the Matrix back in SR1 & SR2.

That said, I'm not too keen on the brain hacking stuff. The whole "reach out to someone (connected or otherwise) and scramble their brains" schtick just isn't working for me.

Having psychotropic effects from IC and decker programs (they aren't hackers, damnit!) perfectly fine. Those make sense and are a flavor thing. But being able to reach out from one's commlink and screw with someone's brain simply because they are within a few meters of you? That's stretching it a bit especially if the person doesn't have any equipment that can receive the signal you are piping out.

A number grade on your write-up? I'd give you a 93%. I have to dock you 7 points for the brain hacking stuff because it stretches disbelief a bit too thin IMO.

Solid rules write-up otherwise though. Good stuff.

[Blade]

1. Yes it does change a lot. It switches from "with GM approval and a great deal of tinkering you can do it" to "just roll the dice". With the core rules, you can't just say : "ok, I blackhammer this guy" the way a mage can say "I manabolt this guy".

2. Once again, your average mage isn't there to manage drones with posession spirits. All the drones you see aren't controlled by spirits.

Of course anyone can be a hacker, just like anyone can shoot a gun or anyone can play guitar. It's just a matter of skill. Shadowrun has always been like that (expect for 1st ed which had a negative modifier for mages in the Matrix): tech is available to everyone, only magic is a gift. Nevertheless, only characters spending enough on skills and gear can be good enough.

3. It's not mentioned anywhere. If you apply the rule's logic, it looks like you can't default. The skill is the matrix's attribute, and the program is the matrix's skill, so no attribute no defaulting. But without a good FAQ/Errata, it's GM call. Anyway, defaulting to Attribute-1 is a terrible choice because it means that good hackers don't need skills, but you've already pointed that out. So yes, if your GM is using a stupid and broken rule, it'll lead to broken and stupid situations.

3a. So you need rating 5 hacking programs (5k/1BP) each. You'll need at least Exploit, Spoof, Stealth, Defuse and Decrypt, so that's 5BP. Add a rating 5/5 (I guess you want the firewall that goes with it) OS (5k/1BP) and a response 5 commlink (5K/1BP), and you get 7BP... For a good but pretty limited hacker gear (can't do cybercombat, can't do sniffing, can be jammed easily). You then need skills (computer, hacking and electronic warfare at least) with high enough ratings... Of course, your limited hacker will, hopefully, be able to do something else than hack.

[eidolon]

[Blade]

@Doc: The reason why he thinks that his brain hacking rules are necessary is because without them people disconnected from the Matrix wouldn't risk anything.
This, according to him, would lead people to stay away from the Matrix.

In his opinion, people won't connect to the Matrix unless they're toast if they don't.

[Redjack]

[Kyoto Kid]

[eidolon]