Alternate Matrix Rules - Dumpshock Forums

Alternate Matrix Rules, Everyone is doing it

Blade View Member Profile	Nov 7 2007, 04:01 PM Post #126
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466	Same here ;)

Seven-7

Nov 7 2007, 04:04 PM

Post #127

Moving Target

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First I wanna note that while I disagree with your statements I want to commend you on at least debating them with me in a civilized fashion, thank you.

QUOTE

1. Yes it does change a lot. It switches from "with GM approval and a great deal of tinkering you can do it" to "just roll the dice". With the core rules, you can't just say : "ok, I blackhammer this guy" the way a mage can say "I manabolt this guy".

Ignoring GM thinking and ignoring theme for a moment, why would you not want this to be so mechanically? SR4 is all about the Universal rolling. Especially if multiple types of characters will be using it, like Hacking. So why do you think the BH and MB should be different? Why CANT you just say "Sure, roll them bones"?

QUOTE

2. Once again, your average mage isn't there to manage drones with possession spirits. All the drones you see aren't controlled by spirits.

Average mage or player? Because I'm betting your average mage will in fact do this because it stops people from controlling his/enemies drones. The average player probably wont because they probably wont figure it out. Regardless, my point was that it's not only possible but a better solution to possess than it is to rig.

QUOTE

Of course anyone can be a hacker, just like anyone can shoot a gun or anyone can play guitar. It's just a matter of skill. Shadowrun has always been like that (expect for 1st ed which had a negative modifier for mages in the Matrix): tech is available to everyone, only magic is a gift. Nevertheless, only characters spending enough on skills and gear can be good enough.

I've already pointed out the fallacy of this, hell, even you do:

QUOTE

So you need rating 5 hacking programs (5k/1BP) each. You'll need at least Exploit, Spoof, Stealth, Defuse and Decrypt, so that's 5BP. Add a rating 5/5 (I guess you want the firewall that goes with it) OS (5k/1BP) and a response 5 commlink (5K/1BP), and you get 7BP... For a good but pretty limited hacker gear (can't do cybercombat, can't do sniffing, can be jammed easily).

7BP. That's two spells and a spirit with one service in chargen for a second world to be dominating in.

It's not a choice of: Hacker or Mage? You can easily do both, but you dont want to allow Hackers to even get something similar? Want to take away the hackers ability to be a CyberZombie (Best example I could think of at the moment for something a Streetsam can do, but a Mage obviously cant do)?

And finally:

QUOTE

3. It's not mentioned anywhere. If you apply the rule's logic, it looks like you can't default. The skill is the matrix's attribute, and the program is the matrix's skill, so no attribute no defaulting. But without a good FAQ/Errata, it's GM call. Anyway, defaulting to Attribute-1 is a terrible choice because it means that good hackers don't need skills, but you've already pointed that out. So yes, if your GM is using a stupid and broken rule, it'll lead to broken and stupid situations.

It is actually mentioned:

QUOTE

Defaulting
If the character lacks the appropriate skill for the test, she can still attempt the action, but will find it harder to succeed than someone else who has the skill. Improvising in this manner is called defaulting.
Characters who default use only the linked attribute in their dice pool. Additionally, they suffer a –1 dice pool modifier.

Mercer View Member Profile	Nov 7 2007, 04:14 PM Post #128
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600	It seems like if hackers can fry anyone's brain just by looking at them, it doesn't leave much of a reason to play a sammie. Every SR group would probably be a mage and a hacker, and then to round it out two more mages or hackers.

Gelare

Nov 7 2007, 04:33 PM

Post #129

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Mercer)

It seems like if hackers can fry anyone's brain just by looking at them, it doesn't leave much of a reason to play a sammie. Every SR group would probably be a mage and a hacker, and then to round it out two more mages or hackers.

By these rules, it isn't particularly easy for hackers to fry peoples' brains. It can be done, but it's harder and slower than shooting them in the face. It's certainly harder and slower than shooting them in the face several times per second with burst fire and explosive ammunition. A hacker by these rules does become a decent contributor in normal combat - which is fantastic. There are few things I liked less than sitting off with the hacker to the side while we hurled dice at each other ("The node detects you." "Bugger. Best disconnect and try again, then."), and then having the hacker hide behind a crate with nothing to do when combat came up. A sammie will still win in a fight every day of the week, which is also good. This way, everyone brings something to the table [i]all the time[/], instead of just some of the time.

Blade

Nov 7 2007, 04:35 PM

Post #130

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QUOTE ("Seven-7")

First I wanna note that while I disagree with your statements I want to commend you on at least debating them with me in a civilized fashion, thank you.

Thanks to you too ;)

1. First, I'd like to point out that I'm not speaking about BH in the Matrix but BH a random guy in the street (maybe I wasn't clear enough about this). I won't allow it with just a dice roll for the same reasons I can't allow a player to roll Agility+Rifle to see if he's able to shoot a megacorp CEO with a sniper rifle. It's not just about aiming and pulling the trigger. He'll have to find a good position, bring his rifle there, and stay undetected until he shoots.
With the core rules, if you want to blackhammer a guy who's just accessing through AR you'll have to hack his commlink and flip it to VR mode, or you'll need to access his DNI (which probably won't be that easy) and hack it. Both are more challenging than just running a program. And that's leaving aside GM thinking.

If it's about blackhammering someone in the Matrix, I don't have that much problem about using magic rules for programs, but I don't see what's wrong with considering matrix's skill as matrix's attribute, programs as matrix's skills and using the system we use for physical combat with these. In both cases we're using a part of an existing ruleset adapted to another universe.

2. I guess you didn't get my point. My point was not that you can't rig with magic, neither was it that mages can't rig. It was that magic isn't made for rigging. You don't have rigging spells, you don't have rigging spirits. What you have is a possibility to use spirits to rig drones but that's not what magic is about. When you play a mage you're most likely to use your magic for whatever your mage is supposed to do rather than to spend your time controlling drones (except if the purpose of your mage is to control drones, of course).
It's the same with the hacker. You're most likely to use your tech to break into computer and security systems than to directly kill people.

In the statement you quoted, you forgot the part about needing skills, which raise the cost of a hacker. But that's not the point, I agree that you can do a hacker/mage. What you can't do is a mage who breaks into computer and security systems with his magic... Well, I guess you can do it with hacker task spirits, but it's not exactly hacking with magic.

3. I was speaking about Matrix defaulting, which, is different from classic defaulting, because you don't roll attribute+skill (you can consider you do, but in that case attribute is skill and skill is program, so you default when you don't have the program, as explained in the FAQ).

Eryk the Red View Member Profile	Nov 7 2007, 04:40 PM Post #131
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301	Actually, I'm not bugged by the idea of hackers infringing on the street sam's niche. A combat mage and a support mage and a hacker would be just as effective a team as a street sam, a support mage and a hacker under the current rules. I don't think Frank's rules cause any real issues there. SR doesn't have strong niche protection as-is. (And that's a good thing to many, people, though I am neutral about it.) I simply don't like the flavor of it. Mages cast spells. Those spells sometimes make heads explode (or whatever). But they do it by will. Hackers don't blast the brains of people unconnected to any tech. Not in my mind. It doesn't feel right. And, (this is a personal thing) I don't so much think of hackers as matrix mages. They're matrix street sams. TMs are the matrix mages. I'd be less bugged by TMs hacking brains.

Adarael

Nov 7 2007, 04:46 PM

Post #132

Deus Absconditus

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QUOTE

Ignoring GM thinking and ignoring theme for a moment, why would you not want this to be so mechanically? SR4 is all about the Universal rolling. Especially if multiple types of characters will be using it, like Hacking. So why do you think the BH and MB should be different? Why CANT you just say "Sure, roll them bones"?

I've made my opinions on the Universal Hacker Brainfry pretty well known already. But here it is again. You can't, because:
1) Mages have to pay points to get the ability to work magic. They also have to pay points to buy up the attribute and to buy the spell. Hackers really only have to pay points to get the money for their equipment.
2) Fundamentally, mages still have to have LOS on their target. Hackers fundamentally do not. They still need to prep, but if they prep right, they don't ever have to get anywhere near their target. In fact, if they prepare just right, they don't even have to know where their target is. They just need a matrix address/nearest jackpoint locale.
3) Magic leaves an astral signature. Astral signatures are slow to clean unless you pay to get cleansing. Astral signatures can be used to remotely explode your head, as well as recognize you anywhere you are in the future, barring further initiation and aura-shifting. Cleaning a datatrail takes one turn. Failing to clean a datatrail lets people know where you were, and what commlink you were using. Nothing more.
4) Fundamentally, a manabolt works like a gun - you point it at someone and they die. Fundamentally, the Universal Hacker Brainfry is like a robot assassin - you program a remote or local target and the remote or local target dies. It's the remote part that's crappy.

QUOTE

Average mage or player? Because I'm betting your average mage will in fact do this because it stops people from controlling his/enemies drones. The average player probably wont because they probably wont figure it out. Regardless, my point was that it's not only possible but a better solution to possess than it is to rig.

I think you are playing in a very different game than most of us. I've never had a mage use a posession spirit to keep the party's drones from being hacked. That's because we've A) never had a problem with people regularly hacking our drones, since we tend to roll heavy on the EW, and B) the average mage is not from a tradition that allows posession spirits, unless you fundamentally change what 'most' mages do in Shadowrun. I'm not saying that's bad, I'm just saying that the fiction and written adventures don't bear out that this is a 'usual' tactic. I would go so far as to call it rare. I don't think this is entirely germane to the Universal Hacker Brainfry, though.

QUOTE

It's not a choice of: Hacker or Mage? You can easily do both, but you dont want to allow Hackers to even get something similar? Want to take away the hackers ability to be a CyberZombie (Best example I could think of at the moment for something a Streetsam can do, but a Mage obviously cant do)?

Fundamentally, I agree with this opinion. It's NOT a choice of and/or. Nor should it ever be. It should be a choice of "How much AND do I want?" I love the fact that in 4th edition I can say, "yes, I am a very effective hacker and a very effective [Runner type X] as well!" But I don't think you should HAVE to tag hacker onto every concept.

And now my commentary:
My opinions on Frank's Universal Hacker Brainfry have been well-documented in the original thread. I think the idea is terrible, and I cry for the fact that a lof of you seem to have drank Frank's kool-aid in this matter.

BUT.

I do think the majority of Frank's rules are totally awesome, excellent, and amazing.

Gelare

Nov 7 2007, 04:53 PM

Post #133

Moving Target

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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

(Alternate Matrix Rules, including brain hacking.)

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

I'd rather get rid of trodes and similar technology and give players two options for dealing with the Matrix. Either direct wired connections via datajacks and similar items, or through "old school" tech like VR goggles and gloves. The clunkiness and lack of grace of the latter, alone, would lead most to pick up the former. And that solves a lot more problems than it creates (unlike "brain hacking").

I have very suddenly been reminded of a conversation I had last night with the GM of a game I'm about to be playing in. He told me my favorite class was too powerful and made headaches for him, so he was cutting its power level in half. Needless to say, arguments ensued. His reasoning for this decision (which, I'm happy to say, I eventually talked him out of), was that such and such a rule is overpowered, so I'll nerf that rule and then everything will be balanced. That is one perfectly legitimate way to go about it, and Doc, I would love to see some alternate rules of your own that harken back to a day when deckers had real wires coming out of their heads, I think that's got much cooler flavor than a wireless world.

The main problem with the nerfing approach is, it isn't fun. (Warning: The preceeding is a major generalization. It applies almost always to the game I have in mind, but less often to a game like Shadowrun, where players sometimes choose to play in games where they play street gangers who get kicked around a lot. Take it with a grain of salt. But still consider whether it applies to you.) When players see options in a rulebook, they fully expect to be able to play them. They're official! They're canon! Whatever. Frank's approach, having read a number of his alternate rules in the past, is to jack up the power level of the worst off. This results in everyone still being able to use all the rules they've been presented with, everyone can still do their thing, but some people can do their thing more, and for the most part, people are having fun. Such an approach (clearly) isn't for everyone. Sometimes the results are a little absurd (that Fighter in Races of War, man...), but having been disgusted by the SR4 Matrix rules for quite a while, these rules are much better, plus they make hackers more a league of their own (rather than a sammie with a Fairlight Caliban).

Cheops

Nov 7 2007, 05:26 PM

Post #134

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (Seven-7)

QUOTE (Blade @ Nov 7 2007, 04:40 AM)

The "casually" is important here. What I meant was that even if they can do it, that's not what you'd expect from them.

1. Yes, Hacker can mimic spells, but they do it in a totally different way, they don't "cast illusion program at this guy". And when it comes down to reading minds or controlling thoughts, it's harder to do (hence not "casual"). That's not their main purpose.

2. I'd like to know how mages can possess drones. The best I can see is using a spirit with a possession tradition to possess the drone, which isn't exactly the same, and isn't that common, just like a hacker hacking a brain.

3. Defaulting to Logic for hacking test is a house rule. (and a pretty unbalanced one). Besides, you need a response 6 commlink with a system 6 to use your rating 6 program... Even without taking into account the availability, the cost is quite high for a mage.

1. Well thats the thing, they can already do a lot of it in the core rules, this doesn't really change that. What it does do is give them sensible rules to do so, rules that are on par with the basic universal dice setup the rest of the game has. Attacking in the matrix and attacking in the physical plane? The same. Summoning sprites and summoning spirits? The same. There's a reason for that, simplicity. Theoretically, if you know one way to do it, you know how to do it for the rest of the archetypes.

2. Possession Spirits is one way, an EFFECTIVE way, and once my players realized possible it was how they dealt with it. The other way would be of course: Doing exactly the way hackers would. ANYONE can do what hackers do, because hackers in the core book do not represent a special ability, they are a set of gear and rules. It's like saying that Street Sams are the only ones that can shoot guns, when in reality anyone can shoot guns.

3. What? Do you just use the programs rating then? How else would you default? Do you default to just Logic? If so then does that mean you ignore the program rating? If you do, then why both with rating six, stay at rating one cheap, you'd have a dice pool of 6 (5-1+2) with whatever edge, Improved Logic...Unless you Analyze Device, get even more dice. You're still doing from 6-12 sans edge.

3.a. You'd need 6 Response if you were going to run 6 programs at one time, otherwise 5 will work quite nicely, which runs 4k (1bp), and 3k for the R6 System (1bp), all available in chargen because neither has an availability.

If you get past the initial shock of things, you can realize that there's nothing stopping any one of your team members from doing it already.

1. In order to do a Matrix attack under the normal rules there are a lot more constraints than a regular attack physically. You have to do more prep work than "I walk up to him and punch him in the face." Some people seem to have a problem doing this prep work and that's fine. It's not a problem for me and mine.

2. Possessing spirit's Force*2 v. Object Resistance *2. Spirit gets +6 if the vessel is specially prepared which takes time and money. You'd need at least a Force 4 to have an even chance against a Drone. You probably want it to be bound unless you don't care about the sunset/sunrise limit which costs more money. No spirit gets Vehicle skills as an optional power so they have to default which may not be a big deal unless it is an unwieldy drone (like a blimp) and you better have good recoil comp on the mounted weapons. They cannot use or manipulate AR/VR in any way and nor can they use the sensors.

It's a pretty crappy way to protect your drones.

3. It seems like the intent was that you default to Skill in the matrix. Note also that EW cannot be defaulted to so a mage without any of the hacking skills cannot: Locate Nodes, Locate Hidden Nodes, or Intercept Wireless Data (all of which are pretty important).

3a. Actually according to RAW: Response limits System which limits Program Rating. So if you have system 6, Response 5, and program 6 then everything is working at rating 5.

Ol' Scratch

Nov 7 2007, 05:40 PM

Post #135

Immortal Elf

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QUOTE (Gelare)

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

(Alternate Matrix Rules, including brain hacking.)

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

I'd rather get rid of trodes and similar technology and give players two options for dealing with the Matrix. Either direct wired connections via datajacks and similar items, or through "old school" tech like VR goggles and gloves. The clunkiness and lack of grace of the latter, alone, would lead most to pick up the former. And that solves a lot more problems than it creates (unlike "brain hacking").

I have very suddenly been reminded of a conversation I had last night with the GM of a game I'm about to be playing in. He told me my favorite class was too powerful and made headaches for him, so he was cutting its power level in half. Needless to say, arguments ensued. His reasoning for this decision (which, I'm happy to say, I eventually talked him out of), was that such and such a rule is overpowered, so I'll nerf that rule and then everything will be balanced. That is one perfectly legitimate way to go about it, and Doc, I would love to see some alternate rules of your own that harken back to a day when deckers had real wires coming out of their heads, I think that's got much cooler flavor than a wireless world.

Yeah, I worded that oddly. I personally don't have anything against wireless connections. I was talking about requiring either direct wiring to your brain, such as with a datajack, or else having to use sluggish old school technology like VR goggles and gloves. No 'trodes or similar technology. But both could be wireless just fine, and honestly wireless connections make a lot more sense especially given today's direction for similar technology.

Sorry for the confusion.

That said, yeah, I'm no fan of "nerfing" stuff to oblivion as you described, nor am I fan of cranking everything else up to godly levels. I'd rather just change things around, slightly lowering overpowered aspects and slightly amping the weaker stuff to a happy medium. And then, only if everyone else I'm playing with agrees or accepts it. Nothing's more annoying than having a GM decide in the middle of a run that he doesn't like rules that you've designed your character around and all but destroys them as a result.

'Course a lot of GMs don't really take a critical look at characters before a game either, so the fault lies in a number of places I guess.

Mercer

Nov 7 2007, 05:54 PM

Post #136

Running Target

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QUOTE (Eryk the Red)

Actually, I'm not bugged by the idea of hackers infringing on the street sam's niche. A combat mage and a support mage and a hacker would be just as effective a team as a street sam, a support mage and a hacker under the current rules. I don't think Frank's rules cause any real issues there. SR doesn't have strong niche protection as-is. (And that's a good thing to many, people, though I am neutral about it.)

I would agree insofar as the sammie doesn't have particularly strong niche protection, but that doesn't bother me so much. (I mean, no more than most things.) Everybody infringes on the street sams niche, just because any character can be competant to deal with physical world threats. But that's neither here nor there. (There's a lot of overlap in character roles, which is just the beauty of a non-class based system. Becoming a street sam is almost a process of elimination, if you can't cast, hack, rig or talk to people you better be able to fight or you should just take your ball and go home. Being a sam is a lot like being a television writer, if you're around for any length of time at all, you become a hyphenate. Sam-Rigger or Sam-Hacker in SR, to Writer-Director, Writer-Producer in tv.)

I'd say there are two ways new rules can not work for someone ("not work" in this case meaning anything up to and including, "I don't like it"); mechanically, and thematically. SR4 mechanics are not my forte, so I'll leave that to others to debate. I'm not wild about brain hacking because to me, it doesn't feel like SR. If I were going to advance the timeline forward a few hundred years, I probably wouldn't bat an eye at brain hacking. (I will of course have to eat these words next year when the ipod no longer requires earphones and just directly simulates the music center of the brain, but so what? We can burn that bridge when we come to it.)

Seven-7 View Member Profile	Nov 7 2007, 06:29 PM Post #137
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 246 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,198	I could probably correct a few people in this post, but it'd just continue, so how bout this: Someone post an example of a Hacker killing someone with Black Hammer and I'll post a Hacker killing someone with BrainFry, and then ANOTHER person posts the gear acquisition rules and explosion for 100 pounds of C12 or whatevers most effective. See what's more probable and whats more effective.

Kyoto Kid View Member Profile	Nov 7 2007, 06:50 PM Post #138
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490	...Matrix Specialists can already do far worse than just turn you brain to lime jello like: ...mess up your cred rating (various ways to do this) ...give you a criminal record ...delete your access to security areas where you work ...get your car/property impounded/repossessed ...mess with your personal information profile ...spam the living daylights out of you ...mess up your family life. ..just to name a few.

Simon May View Member Profile	Nov 7 2007, 06:52 PM Post #139
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604	Man, nothing is as bad as getting a raunchy personal ad with your work number posted in the papers. Ask Richard Gill.

FrankTrollman View Member Profile	Nov 7 2007, 07:40 PM Post #140
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665	I would like it if people moved all brain hacking discussion to the following thread: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=19678 Honestly guys, if you think you can keep the world real without brain hacking, put your money where your mouth is and show us how this is to be done. But since it's an entirely separate discussion based on a very different conceptualization of the Matrix, it deserves its own thread. -Frank

Fortune

Nov 7 2007, 07:45 PM

Post #141

Immoral Elf

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QUOTE (Seven-7 @ Nov 8 2007, 02:04 AM)

It is actually mentioned:

QUOTE

Defaulting
If the character lacks the appropriate skill for the test, she can still attempt the action, but will find it harder to succeed than someone else who has the skill. Improvising in this manner is called defaulting.
Characters who default use only the linked attribute in their dice pool. Additionally, they suffer a –1 dice pool modifier.

QUOTE (SR4 pg. 208)

Matrix skill tests use the same skill + attribute dice pool as other tests, except that since you are interfacing with the machine world, you use an appropriate device or program attribute in place of your character’s attribute.

QUOTE (SR4 FAQ)

Are programs optional? It says to use Computer or Hacking skill + Logic when "interacting with a device," but to use Computer or Hacking skill + program rating when using a program. So can I just use Logic, or is computer use/hacking impossible without programs?

In most circumstances, you will be using Computer/Hacking + program rating. In cases where a program would apply, but isn't available, the character must default.

Logic is used when you are utilizing a device within its standard parameters (Computer) or trying to bypass those parameters through the device's own OS (Hacking). For example, let's say your character finds an unfamiliar electronic device in a research lab. Computer + Logic would be used to identify the device, figure out what it is, and figure out how to turn it on. Let's say that device happened to be a new holo projector prototype. Computer + Logic would also be used to determine what features it has and how to use them. If the character wanted to bypass the controls that prevent the projector from playing pirated movies, porn, or media feeds from unapproved Matrix nodes, he would use Hacking + Logic. If he wanted to take it apart and see how it worked, he would use Hardware + Logic. If he wanted to edit a holo media file, analyze the device's Firewall, or search its usage log, he would use a program (Edit, Analyze, and Browse, respectively).

FrankTrollman View Member Profile	Nov 7 2007, 07:49 PM Post #142
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665	The FAQ says that you are able to use the defaulting rules if you don't have the appropriate program. Actually it says that you "must" use the defaulting rules if you don't have the appropriate program. Which since anyone who puts in the effort to push... with their hand can get a Logic that is more than 1 higher than the current program cap, almost all programs are completely worthless under the "official" rules. But that's neither here nor there. These aren't the official rules, and if you didn't have severe reservations about the official rules you probably would not have read them. -Frank

Blade

Nov 7 2007, 07:51 PM

Post #143

Runner

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QUOTE ("Seven-7")

I could probably correct a few people in this post, but it'd just continue, so how bout this: Someone post an example of a Hacker killing someone with Black Hammer and I'll post a Hacker killing someone with BrainFry, and then ANOTHER person posts the gear acquisition rules and explosion for 100 pounds of C12 or whatevers most effective. See what's more probable and whats more effective.

Actually, I don't have any problem with hackers being able to do it. I don't say that BrainFry is too powerful/easy. I just don't like the fact that it's directly written in the book, as a common use of hacking and that you just have to roll a die to do it, because I prefer to keep those special cases of hacking... special and to focus hacking on computer and surveillance system.

So it's more about personal taste than about any balance issue.

Fortune View Member Profile	Nov 7 2007, 07:53 PM Post #144
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PH3NOmenon

Nov 7 2007, 08:14 PM

Post #145

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QUOTE (Buster)

Ah, I see where you're coming from now. However, you could make datajacks so incredibly necessary, and the cost of brainhacking so high (which therefore greatly lowers the chance of someone bothering to brainhack a wageslave), that everyone would still want a datajack even though it exposes them to some possible danger.

Haven't read pages 4-end yet, but this right here peaked my attention.

As i posted before, these rules sound great, but the brain hacking is a stickler. Couldn't you make naked brain hacking Hard?

Breaking into a firewalled comlink and making it do stuff is one thing, but hacking a naked brain... Sure, it's possible, and i see what you're getting at but couldn't you make it so that attacking a naked brain would be something only a REALLY good hacker would do off-hand?

Think about it, you describe the brain as having awesome computing abilities (which is true) and without any metal in your skull and without being suscribed to anything the connection a hacker needs to make to you is just so... well... organic that it is hard to get the results you want? Or some fluff that to get a potent enough signal into an unwired brain you need to be rather close to the target?

In all, I aree that it has to be possible in this interpretation of the SR world, but the sheer power of it is daunting, to say the least. Sure mages can do it too, but there are so few mages around that it is a non-issue. (mostly) So make brain hacking a possibility and sufficiently 'rare' and the porblem is solved... at least in my eyes.

On another note: Frank, could you create a hacker, in your rules? Just an off the bat starting hacker, that would end up in the BBB if it had your rules. He shouldn't be uber or anything, just a pregen example. Thanks.

Blade

Nov 7 2007, 08:30 PM

Post #146

Runner

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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

The FAQ says that you are able to use the defaulting rules if you don't have the appropriate program. Actually it says that you "must" use the defaulting rules if you don't have the appropriate program. Which since anyone who puts in the effort to push... with their hand can get a Logic that is more than 1 higher than the current program cap, almost all programs are completely worthless under the "official" rules.

Err, as it has been pointed out the skill is considered as the attribute. So obviously the program is considered as the skill. So if you don't have the program, you use the default rules and roll skill-1.
I don't see any Logic attribute involved in there.

Hank View Member Profile	Nov 7 2007, 10:32 PM Post #147
Target Group: Members Posts: 76 Joined: 12-September 07 Member No.: 13,233	I like the looks of this system and will try it. Regarding the brain-hack that everyone's in such a tizzy about, whatever. I'm not going to bitch at Frank over the one bit of his system that I don't like. Especially since he makes a damn good argument for why brain-hacking should exist. It makes the hacker more in-game and makes the universe make sense. So far the brilliant arguments against I've seen are, "I don't like it." Which is my brilliant argument. @Frank, thank you.

Cthulhudreams View Member Profile	Nov 8 2007, 10:14 AM Post #148
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328	So what does program rating actually do for most programs?

Ryu View Member Profile	Nov 8 2007, 12:07 PM Post #149
Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309	Using the spell rules analogy, I assumed the rating limits hits? The program costs are not really essential to the rules mechanic (game balance only), but I´d care to know your ideas. @Frank: If you answered to that aspect I must have missed it, sorry.

deek View Member Profile	Nov 8 2007, 03:05 PM Post #150
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814	Unfortunately, Frank hasn't answered any specific questions wanting supporting rules (to make this set playable in a real game) or more clarification on issues that are a little "foggy". I've already asked twice and have not gotten a response. And at this point, I'd like to use frank's alternative, but in order to do so, I'd need to fill in a lot of mundane blanks...

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