 Nash Equilibria and Matrices, Your targets are not stupid. |
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 Nov 8 2007, 03:57 PM
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#101
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ghostrider  Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333  |
Not a ton of time, but real quick, a few thoughts: - Okay, so the setting and rules state that devices with computers and wireless technology are ubiquitous. Right? Okay, so there's a ton of stuff to hack by default. Even cyber and weapons have computers. No, it doesn't go into tons and tonnes of great detail on what the computers on those devices do...that's where you as GM come in. More in a bit. - Hackers' purpose is to hack things. It's a given, but I'm stating it. - The setting and rules say that the benefits of having wireless and leaving it on are far superior to the detriments that you suffer for turning it off. That's the important thing, so keep it in mind. By canon, people do not turn off wireless because the benefits outweigh the risks. By canon, you should penalize someone for trying to "escape" the danger of hacking. - Therefore, you could extrapolate that a hacker has a bunch of prospective targets at any given time. Now on to the problems, as I see them: - Players, at least on DSF, take great care and go to great lengths to make their characters perfect, and "hacker proof". This leads to the incorrect assumption that everyone in the game world does this. Why is that incorrect? Because the setting says it is. - GMs and players, at least on DSF, let this incorrect assumption lead to every person in the game world leaving nothing to chance, nothing open to hacking, because it's "not realistic". This is bad, because you're deliberately, through a misguided desire to make the world more like our own or whatever the guiding force is, making it impossible or pointless to play a hacker. So in short, if you want the hacker to have stuff to do, don't go around making sure that NPCs turn off all of their wireless and hide behind air gaps and never leave their basement. Why? Because when they do, the hacker has nothing to do. Bad game, regardless of "realism". Hacker Player: "I want to hack that guard's gun and force the safety to engage." GM: <grin as though he had won> "Sorry, you can't. His gun is skinlinked. In fact, you notice that there isn't a single node in the area, because their security is realistic and good." Hacker Player: <sighs> "Your game sucks. Playing a hacker sucks. I'm going home." If you go out of your way to create a problem (there's nothing to hack), then you shouldn't complain about suffering the consequences. So yes, by the rules, you can lock down every device, and make sure that everything is skinlinked, air gapped, totally locked down. But your game will suck. So don't. Let them do fun and creative things. Tell them "yup, looks like that door is controlled wirelessly." Tell them "Yeah, it looks like each camera is its own node, so you can totally hack this one." Tell them that the guards are networked and that they can hack the commlink and send a report to their central security room saying that everything is A-OK. It's a game, not a pissing contest of who can most screw the other person with the "most realistic" interpretation of the rules. That's the gist. |
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Nov 8 2007, 04:05 PM
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#102
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Man Behind the Curtain Group: Admin Posts: 14,871 Joined: 2-July 89 From: End of the Yellow-Brick Road Member No.: 3 |
I was working on a post debating the absurdity of "Brain Hacking" and the technical premises around it that Frank provided...... But this is a far better argument that leaves little to debate IMO. All I can say is "Wow! Great post eidolon!" |
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Nov 8 2007, 04:12 PM
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#103
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
But you can. That has been presented as fact since SR1. Not jacked in = immune to matrix shenanigans against your brain.
Not so. It gives you immunity to matrix threats but also cuts you off from the benefits of the matrix... something that has been sadly lacking in presence in the game. We see the fluff as saying the matrix has all sorts of benefits but they aren't represented in-game.
CCTV still has connection points. You splice or otherwise jumper yourself (your deck) into the system and then co-opt it... kind of like how our spy types do it nowadays, just with 2070 tech.
Have to call bullshit on this one. BTLs from SR1 onwards have required a simsense rig that has been modified to give the level of signal BTLs require to do their thing. You can't just go to your local SuperK-Wal, buy the generic simsense rig and then pop in your BTL to get your fix. The simsense players don't support that without being modified. As far as I'm concerned, novels aren't canon. The rules from SR1 through SR4 (regardless of how bastardized the rules are in SR4 are) ARE canon.
The world does have lots to hack. But what you and several others are failing to see is that everyone does more than their "assigned duties". Mages shoot guns. So do the faces, deckers, riggers, and sams. So what if the decker/hacker has to shoot a gun and then during a lull in the action, break out his comm gear to bypass computer systems and what not? It's not like that isn't a staple in sci-fi settings. Why the aversion to that in SR when it's so very fitting regardless of version of SR you happen to be playing? |
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Nov 8 2007, 04:19 PM
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#104
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I'll admit that I only skimmed the material (among other reasons because it's ultimately a modification to a game I have no intention of playing), but I didn't see anything providing an explanation for what on earth would create phenomena like the lack of
or why it would make sense that
Most of my understanding of how you're seeing this is coming from "Hacking an orphan brain" and "hacking an occupied network" in the thread you linked. If there's an explanation that gives a why, rather than a "it just works like this", I'd appreciate a link, a relatively unique search term, or at the least a post number (in the thread) to within 25-30 posts. Maybe I'm just underestimating how much SR4 changed things. Put it this way: is it still possible to bypass some level of network security via physical penetration? That is, can one find a physical place, with a physical connection (possibly wireless), from which one passes through less security on the way to a given system than in some other place? If so, what makes it different for the brain and another device? ~J |
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Nov 8 2007, 04:25 PM
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#105
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
Nice one Eidolon.
But I think you can still have a realist world and enough systems you can hack. |
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Nov 8 2007, 05:34 PM
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#106
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MechRigger Delux Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,151 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Hanger 18, WPAFB Member No.: 1,657 |
Is that something like we have a real world and there are still enough systems to hack in it? :D |
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Nov 8 2007, 05:41 PM
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#107
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 25-November 03 From: Harrisburg, PA Member No.: 5,848 |
That's it exactly for me. Remember: Shadowrunners aren't people. At least not while they're shadowrunning. "People" in the SR world leave their stuff wirelessly connected because it's convenient and often necessary. These people aren't planning on executing illegal B&E's, extractions, data-steals, and/or wetwork. If they were, they too would be sure to take themselves completely 'off the grid' and make themselves hack-proof. Ben Klingston, security guard extraordinnaire, however, is not thinking about any of the above activities. Even when he's on duty, he likes to be able to pop up some AR and check his email, last night's scores, and dumpshock forums. So he's got wireless going on. Yeah, the company put out a memo about leaving that stuff on after some other company or site got hit. But c'mon, that stuff never happens to you. Now, if the Shadowrunners hitting Klingston's site aren't exactly the A-Team, and the site is put on security alert, then yeah I bet Ben disengages any unneccesary wireless and all the guards go into hidden mode and load up Encrypt and Stealth and go to town. But if the team is good and Klingston doesn't know anyone's there until he sees the barrel of an Ares Alpha pointed at him, turning off his wireless gizmos and gearing up for Matrix defense isn't going to be on his mind right now. Not getting shot - in the face - is. Now the hacker can relatively easily get into Ben's gear and mess with stuff, and contribute meaningfully to a combat situation. |
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Nov 8 2007, 05:54 PM
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#108
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
But isn't that the usual Hollywood cop-out that we're all sick to death of? I can't speak for anyone else, but I can't stand movies and TV shows where the hero's only superpower is that his enemies are always retards. Intentionally lowering the IQ of the game just doesn't sound fun to me. Sometimes it's fun to play whack-a-dork, but that's what the Xbox is for, not RPGs. I'd rather play a deadly game of wits, spy vs. spy, and cat and mouse with smart opponents than always spending 4 hours kicking the crap out of morons that aren't smart enough to turn off the wireless on their gear. |
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Nov 8 2007, 06:04 PM
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#109
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Eidolon, why are you posting on this thread?
Your basic point is that you don't have to reconcile the rules and the setting, that you can simply put whatever oposition you feel like to make for an exciting game and just let common sense and the actual rules hang like viscera from a standard. In short: your point is just the Oberoni Fallacy only applied to the setting instead of the rules like it normally is. Well honestly, you can go do that. In fact, it doesn't matter what the rules are so long as you just ignore rationality and costs when outfitting the target facilities. Sure, there's no reason in the rules for the camera to not be a close circuit affair which sends regular segregated data dumps down a one-way fiberoptic cable connection to a security repository in Chiba. But you can have that not happen because failing to give the Hacker something to hack is out of genre, frustrating, and boring. By simply having the NPCs ignore the cost benefit analysis that your players have doubtless already done, you can give them level appropriate opposition every time. But you know what? Some of us don't want to play Dungeons and Shadowrun. We want to play in a consistent world, where there is the perception that the world is reactive and coherent. A world in short, where the NPCs are playing by the same rules as the PCs. Where the players only have a tactical edge because of the inherent vagueries of asymetric warfare and not because the GM keeps throwing them slow pitches. This thread is in fact not about how we can all play magical teaparty and get together once a week to ignore the rules and tell stories of magic and intrigue while eating delicious christmas cookies. This thread is about reconciling what the corporate security can do, what it should do, and what it does do with the rules. And if you don't care about reconciling those things, I honestly don't care what you have to say on this or any related thread. My own solution involves major changes to the rules and minor changes to the fluff. I could see someone providing a solution that involved major changes to the fluff and minor changes to the rules. Or major changes to the fluff and the rules. But simply saying that you don't give a damn about solutions is called Thread Crapping. As a moderator, you should give yourself a warning. -Frank |
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Nov 8 2007, 06:13 PM
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#110
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
With your first statement, I can't disagree. If someone takes the time to plug your datajack into the wall, or tie you down and paint a trode net on you, you can't really stop them without fighting back. One minute, you're not wired, the next you are. I also can't refute your second statement. Black IC exists for a reason: So hackers actually have to risk their lives. It's this third statement that gets to me. We agree that the Matrix is wireless. So someone can walk into the room, tie you down, paint a trode net on your head, and then walk out of the room so they can send a black IC at you wirelessly. I can't argue with that scenario. But how is a trode net suddenly applicable from afar? How do we connect to a brain that hasn't been connected, either voluntarily or involuntarily? There doesn't seem to be any argument presented that gets past this issue. So I'm asking: where is the logic that states that if you can connect directly you can connect from afar?
Best. Question. Ever. If the threat is out there, someone will come up with a defense. Under Frank's rules, a commlink and firewall is a defense. I simply don't see how. You commlink sits on your belt. If you aren't directly connected to it via a data jack or trodenet, all it does is broadcast to goggles, screens, earpieces and the like. It doesn't actually stop anything. Therefore, if brain hacking were possible, a commlink and firewall is not a defense. But what about a direct connection? A trode net will connect in, I assume, the same fashion as the wireless connection for brain hacking. This means that a trode net will stop the wireless from being able to connect by blocking it's path. A datajack, on the other hand, uses the brain's wiring to talk to the brain, rather than small electrical impulses. This means that unless there's one neuron or circuit that is essential to interfacing with the Matrix, a datajack wouldn't stop someone from applying a trode net as well, and therefore wouldn't stop wireless hacking either. It seems to me that the upside to having a commlink connected is to have defense programs ready. But I love the tin foil hat defense. It's brilliance in its simplicity. Perhaps everyone wears them in 2070, much like air filter masks today.
This is the problem exactly. It's not that the current matrix rules don't work, but that GMs don't utilize them properly. |
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Nov 8 2007, 06:21 PM
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#111
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
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Nov 8 2007, 06:24 PM
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#112
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Awesome article: "It requires no stretch of the imagination to conclude that the current helmet craze is likely to have been propagated by the Government, possibly with the involvement of the FCC. We hope this report will encourage the paranoid community to develop improved helmet designs to avoid falling prey to these shortcomings" LOL. |
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Nov 8 2007, 06:34 PM
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#113
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Hmm. That said, why are you posting in this thread if that's the stated goal of it? Especially since in your next breath you say that you ignored the rules, you ignored what security can and should do, and instead just created your own set of rules apparently because you didn't feel like reconciling what they can do, what they should do, and what it does to with the rules. So, again, why are you posting in this thread? I'm temporarily blinded by the sheer hypocrisy of it all. Doubly so because you seem to think you're the only one allowed to ignore the rules and fluff and be high and mighty about it. |
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Nov 8 2007, 06:35 PM
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#114
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 208 Joined: 3-May 06 From: On the Run Member No.: 8,521 |
Personally, I'd go with a Lead Foil hat instead. :P
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Nov 8 2007, 07:09 PM
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#115
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
Why corps building aren't just bunkers? Why don't they check the id of each and every person present in the building 10 times per second? Why don't they create their own language to "encrypt" the verbal communications between employees? Why don't they forbid their employees from meeting anyone not belonging to the corp? Why don't they have rating 12 wards protecting each and every building with twenty rating 12 spirits patrolling? Why don't they have spider drones all over the walls, ready to attack in case of an intrusion?
I'm sorry, but realism doesn't necessarily means extreme security measures. Some of the things I've listed above can actually be applied everywhere, but they will be restricted to very high security areas. And even in quite secure places, the hacker still has something for himself: he is a professional. A regular streetsam can take on several trained security guards, his weapons can cut through the best armor, a regular hacker can hack a secure computer system, he can find their way inside the most secure nodes. A Shadowrunning team isn't a bunch of amateurs. Corps can find a way to make their system more secure, and hackers will find a way to counter it. |
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Nov 8 2007, 07:24 PM
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#116
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
except that's a really dumb assumption. even if you can transmit data to a naked brain over a significant distance, there's no possible way you're going to be able to read data from the brain, because the brain doesn't transmit strongly enough. if you can 'hack' a naked brain at all, you're going to be 'hacking' it purely by sending signal out to it. and if all you're doing is sending signal out, you can do it to as many brains as you can reach as easily as you can do it to one brain. hell, unless you're using some kind of tight-beam signal when you blackhammer someone's naked brain, you won't be able to not kill or maim everyone within range of your transceiver. brainhacking as presented in this thread makes no sense at all, on a technological level. |
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Nov 8 2007, 07:26 PM
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#117
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I'm still boggling at why people think hackers are impotent when it comes to physical encounters. It's not like a smartlink, a nice firearm and Pistols/Automatics 4-6 is hard to come by for crying out loud, nor is a decent Command program (which any good hacker already has) or a cheap drone. I mean, the Lone Star iBall is only 2,000-nuyen, is the size of a large marble, and comes with a built-in flashpak and smoke grenade. And a Body 3 drone (which is smaller than a scooter) can even be mounted with a LMG.
A lot of posters seem to continuously ignore all of that in their weak arguments about why they need "brain hacking" to be effective. Doubly so when on a whim they can augment their arsenal by hijacking anything in the area. But... whatever. As for security, a certain level of "eh?" has to go on in this game. The entire premise revolves around a concept that completely shatters one's suspension of disbelief. There's no way a shadowrunning community would exist -- especially one that's in the public eye and well known -- but it does because that's the very premise of the game. Same goes with governments willingly and happily giving up all their rights to the corporations. And because of that, you have to accept other "eh?"s in order to keep it viable. A lack of impenetrable defenses is right at the top of that list. Sure, it's believable to an extent. It's hard to imagine that there's very many ultra-secure locations anywhere in the world, and those that are usually revolve around national security (which is typically ignored) rather than corporate research. As eidilon pretty much said, you're free to try and go hyper-realistic (even if it's not), but doing so is exceedingly boring and antithesis to the very premise of the game. You know, the game that revolves around dwarves with pink mohawks strolling down Main Street after dark with a Panther Assault Cannon strapped to his back. |
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Nov 8 2007, 07:38 PM
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#118
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 225 Joined: 13-July 07 Member No.: 12,235 |
If this is your biggest point, you haven't really said anything at all. For heaven's sake Fortune, we went over this three pages ago.
Calling hackers a class is just a means to facilitate discussion. You can call them classes, archetypes, or wakalixes, it makes no difference to me, as long as we all understand what we're talking about, which we clearly do. In fact, this is your second point as well as your first, so I'll just save space by reiterating that there has never been an edition of Shadowrun - until fourth - where all the other archetypes gobbled up everything that made the hacker unique and interesting. The person who did the hacking in the fluff was never a mage with an expensive commlink, it was someone with a crapload of very dedicated skills and very dedicated equipment. And that's important. It's part of Shadowrun's identity as a game, and I know full well which game I'm playing. Do you? Do you actually mean to tell me that hackers as standalone characters shouldn't be viable in Shadowrun, given their rich history in the game setting? If so, I'd love to hear your reasoning. |
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Nov 8 2007, 07:48 PM
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#119
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I agree. My Matrix Specialist has skill 4 w/Spc. in S/A Weapons (Fabuki that is loaded with either EXEX & a Hammerli 650 w/ S&S, both internally smartlinked), a couple surveillance drones (including the aforementioned I-ball), and Unarmed combat w/Spec. Cyber Implant (Shock Hand). Besides all that she makes a pretty good B & E and EW specialist ...the kid ain't no slouch. |
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Nov 8 2007, 07:53 PM
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#120
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Sure. A lot of that is "what feel do you want your game to have", certainly. But even as you trend realist, you have to remember some things: - the game allows for hackers - hackers have to have something to do - your job as GM is to provide stuff to do. Regardless of whether your game is cinematic, gritty, or whatever "feel" you want it to have, you still have to provide the meta-level "stuff for the characters to do".
1: free internet 2: boards open to anyone that wants to post as long as they follow the rules 3: several things in this (and the other but pretty much identical) thread(s) pique my interest, and there were a few posts that I felt like responding to (especially when specifically addressed; not to respond would have been impolite) You're free to your own opinions on whether anything I post is valid, but I hardly think I'm breaking any forum rules by giving a different take. I'll let another mod have a say if they see fit, though.
That's something I keep noticing too. In order for there to be so many problems with hackers, you pretty much have to render the hackers completely incompetant at everything else. And if you're doing that...well, I already had my say on creating problems just so you can complain about them. |
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Nov 8 2007, 08:07 PM
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#121
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Target Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 25-May 07 From: Florianópolis, Brasil Member No.: 11,747 |
Besides this, i see that people have something agains hackers using guns, grenades or magic (they always see these archetipes as "samurai that hack", "mage that hack", but never like "hacker that shoots", "hacker that do magic")... but they're ok with hackers becaming some strange kind of psionicists for the sake of "being useful in combat". |
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Nov 8 2007, 08:07 PM
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#122
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i don't think it's creating problems just to have something to complain about when you create a pure hacker and then find out that he is, for the most part, useless. sure, there's that occasional supertough host to hack, but most of the time, it seems like a street sam with hacking 2 and a bunch of storebought agents can do the hacker's job for him. i honestly don't know if this is a real problem with the game or not, but this is what people like Gelare are complaining about. you guys seem to be misreading his arguments. |
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Nov 8 2007, 08:13 PM
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#123
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Sure, I know that a sammie with some agents can perform at a similar or at the same level to a hacker, but does the sammie want to? Most of the characters I've seen aren't built around a jack-of-more-than-one-trades concept, at least initially. Instead, they've got their specialty and the hacker has hers, and the idea of the team is that each person watches the others' backs within their specialty. |
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Nov 8 2007, 08:20 PM
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#124
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
So why is the guy with a Hacking skill not considered a hacker again? I'm confused on this point. Is a guy with Sorcery 2 and Firearms 6 not a mage either just because his magical skills are low? |
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Nov 8 2007, 08:22 PM
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#125
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
But even a pure hacker has his times of day. A bit of rigging and he even can do combat. Besides data search, door opening, removing data trails, faking licenses etc. A proper hacker has to have more than matrix skills. As even mages tend to use weapons to some degree and have many social skills. And even a hardwired matrix does not provide protection, as network segregation is broken once the first jackpoint is found.
If you tell your hacker "the network is hardwired" he should think "and once I´m in, and I have a datajack, security is likely low". Had to specifically point that out to one of my players once. |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 4th December 2024 - 03:34 AM |
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