 Nash Equilibria and Matrices, Your targets are not stupid. |
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 Nov 8 2007, 11:40 PM
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#151
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869  |
I don't think those two ideas are related, brain hacking is just one houserule Frank came up with and eliminating the Agent Smith Army problem is just another houserule. Killing off agents was just a necessary evil that has nothing to do with brain hacking. |
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Nov 9 2007, 12:06 AM
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#152
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
"Brain waves" are not waves in any meaningful sense. The brain does not produce electromagnetic radiation except insofar as the movement of ions may induce currents. Note that muscles and nerves, among other things, also involve moving ions. In short, there is no signal in any meaningful sense emitted from the brain.
Incredulity at the premise. If the premise was that tiny monkeys ran from the transmitter to the receiver with the packets of information, would you still not be able to see why people were questioning why tiny monkeys are involved? ~J |
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Nov 9 2007, 12:11 AM
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#153
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
So where does the setting reveal that all of the fluff hackers are 100% dedicated and cannot contribute in other ways (avoid Otaku references since they most directly relate to Technomaners rather than general hackers)? Wouldn't Damien Knight be a good example of a Face/Hacker? Doesn't Dodger carry a SMG and go in all fleshy alongside the meat team? Please, by all means, open your anus again and pull out some specifics this time. |
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Nov 9 2007, 12:19 AM
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#154
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
Well yes. But to make a mind machine interface actually work, the machine bit needs two way communication. So now that I've accepted two way communication between minds and machines, I am totally okay with the machine being able to actively coerce the mind into doing things. As far as I can see it has too. And from that it logically follows that you could induce a seizure over the mind/machine interface, or stop one. As for the exact mechanics of doing that at a distance (the most implausible component of it to me seeing in that it involves focused quantum waveforms changing electrical activity, and I think you find this the most implusable component too, and so does MFB as he is clearly unwilling to accept the focused distance part) I'm giving that the same benefit of the doubt I'll give to magic. Ie I'm willing to have an axiom changed as long as the rest of the deductive reasoning process flows cleanly from that axiom. The axiom here is 'sensing and manipulating of electrical activity is possible at a distance' and then the rest of the stuff (air gaps being useless, reading peoples minds) is entirely okay. |
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Nov 9 2007, 12:32 AM
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#155
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 246 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,198 |
Have any of you even tried it? The brain hacking rules on the naked brain? It's nothing special. It's not really a stretch even. My two hackers haven't run into one yet, nor have they tried to go around and nuke the world. They dont feel the need to. But you know what did happen? They got to shoot some bad guys in that oh special hacker way. Well, one of them did. The other got fried by IC.
So far, two games after the rules have come out, it's been easier to have hackers in the game, and when the hacker had to split off? He was at least able to handle himself. |
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Nov 9 2007, 01:11 AM
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#156
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I'm not sure that it's exactly what you're asking for, but FastJack became legendary despite being so task-dedicated that no one can reliably attest to having ever seen him in person. ~J |
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Nov 9 2007, 01:21 AM
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#157
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that doesn't bear even a remote resemblance to what i actually said. |
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Nov 9 2007, 01:36 AM
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#158
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
He's not really a shadowrunner, though. He may dabble from time to time, and obviously only from the Matrix or under a guise (in which case he likely has more shadowrunner-oriented skills as well), but he's no more a shadowrunner than Dunkelzahn or Harlequinn were. Which is the main point. A pure hacker isn't a very good shadowrunner because he is so limited and helpless in scope. This can be said of other general archetypes. If you have a magician with no combat skills, no offense spells, and in fact -only- has high society spells like Makeover and Healthy Glow... he's not going to be a very good shadowrunner either. Could he become one by picking up a firearms skill and a few combat/covert spells? Yep! And the same is true about hackers. If all a so called "street samurai" did was spend every waking hour in his mom's basement playing the console version of Miracle Shooter and considered himself a cyborg 'cause he has a pair of fancy Zeiss Cybereyes, he's going to suck as a shadowrunner, too. And for some reason, this is yet another facet of hackers that a lot of people in these threads refuse to wrap their minds around. |
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Nov 9 2007, 02:02 AM
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#159
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's simply not true. he may have evolved into something more than a mere runner, but he started out as nothing more than a very talented decker in the Into the Shadows collection. deckers have been shadowrunners since SR1. the cover of the SR1-2 main books shows a decker right there in the middle of the action, doing his thing. deckers have as many books dedicated to their craft as any other archtype--more than some. the only time deckers and hackers don't make good runners is in tabletop games (and not even all of them). the problem isn't the setting, it's the rules that describe the setting. |
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Nov 9 2007, 02:06 AM
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#160
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Even Twist was a decker before he went all hippified. ;) |
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Nov 9 2007, 02:11 AM
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#161
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yep. Note the submachinegun slung on his shoulder? Have you read about his skill with that weapon in the fluff? What about his reasonable charisma and social skills that go along with his wide range of contacts? |
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Nov 9 2007, 02:23 AM
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#162
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
let me clarify what i mean by a "pure" hacker or decker. to me, a guy with SMGs 4, Unarmed 3, and the rest of his skill points in computer stuff (with maybe a few left over for a social skill or two)--that's a pure hacker. no, he's not helpless in combat; his job involves dangerous situations, so he's prepared for them. he's spent as many BP as he needs to really excel at hacking, and he's rounded out his sheet with some combat stuff. a street sam who puts a few points into his Software or Hacking skill is, to me, a 'pure' street sam--he kicks ass, takes names, and has a hobby.
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Nov 9 2007, 02:26 AM
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#163
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
And would any GM allow that in a PC? Seriously? The guy that no one has ever met in the flesh...? It just goes to show that such 'pure' Hackers make for crappy gaming. Just as a mage heavily devoted to metaplanar exploration is going to be inappropriate for many games, and so too is a purely devoted 'pit-fighter' sammy with nothing but hand-to-hand combat enhancements. |
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Nov 9 2007, 02:27 AM
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#164
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
except that such a mage or street sam is ignoring huge portions of their specialties (magic and combat, respectively), while a decker who focuses solely on decking is not.
besides which, you guys keep changing the issue. the problem isn't that hackers need combat skills to survive, the problem is that a street sam with a minimal investment of skill and a reasonable investment in equipment can, for the most part, take care of his team's hacking needs. |
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Nov 9 2007, 02:31 AM
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#165
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 225 Joined: 13-July 07 Member No.: 12,235 |
This is not what I had gotten from your statements about everybody in your games being a sammie/mage and doing hacking on the side because they had build points to spare. It seemed to me like you were basically denying the existence of full-blown hackers, which I think would be bad for the game for reasons already states. If the above is the entirety of your position, then I agree fully. Let's hear it, team! Yay clarification! I think we still differ in what we think the Matrix should be able to do. (Which, incidently, is fine - that's why we have seperate games.) It's my impression that the Wireless World is a world just like the Astral World is a world. Technology and magic should be more or less equal in as many ways as possible, because I think the Matrix as presented in Shadowrun is awesome. Myself and a disproportionate number of my friends would like to play dedicated hackers. So you can see how, in my conception of how I'd like my games to be, hackers need more awesome powers. Sure, most mages put a few points into pistols so they have something they can do that doesn't involve them rupturing their brains, but they don't have to, and even if a mage takes no mundane skills at all, he can still float around on the Astral and kill things in grand and explosive and highly effective fashion. This means there has to be some equivalent for hackers, they have to be able to swim around the Matrix and kill people with death rays too. I also happen to like Frank's core assumption that to win at the Matrix, you have to play, so I'm fine with this stuff about unprotected, uncybered brains being unhackable. Lots of people on these boards probably think my desire to have the Astral and the Matrix be roughly equal is absurd, and that's totally okay. They're just house rules at the end of it all, right?
Awesome stuff, Moon-Hawk. One can still make the "woooo, it's sixty years of advance science!" argument, but that was very clearly, thoroughly explained, and very reasonable, too. Well done. |
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Nov 9 2007, 02:32 AM
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#166
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You're missing the point: They're shadowrunners first, hackers/deckers second. Just like a mage who runs in the shadows is a shadowrunner first, mage second. If you don't design your character so that he can survive in the shadows, that's your fault more than it's the rules fault. There's no reason a hacker shouldn't have a decent firearm and dodge/gymnastics skill, smartlink (especially now that they don't even have to be implanted to be fully effective), and Command program. And that's all it takes for them to hold their own when the shit hits the fan. The guys who sit in their mother's basement eating Fritos aren't shadowrunners. They may work with shadowrunners doing secondary tasks, but that's about it. The decker you reference had an SMG at his hip, was on site, and had his buddies covering his back for his brief run in the 'trix (while they had something to do themselves). He *was* a shadowrunner. Bob the fat-fingered slob with a Cheetos-stained commlink who breaks into a sweat and heavy panting when he gets up to use the toliet isn't. And by the definitions people have been using, the latter is a "dedicated hacker" while the former is a "street sammy who hacks." Which is just retarded since if he hacks, he is a hacker. |
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Nov 9 2007, 02:38 AM
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#167
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
see my posts above. i don't think the problem is necessarily that a hacker needs a few combat skills to survive. i think the problem is that someone who doesn't invest a significant portion of his starting BP into hacking can perform a huge chunk of his team's hacking needs. |
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Nov 9 2007, 02:55 AM
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#168
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
And why is that a problem?
Do you not realize what that actually means? It means that if you want to play a hacker you have the freedom to be more than just that. Because it doesn't take much to do it. Just like it doesn't take much to kill people. Just like it doesn't take much to be good at sneaking around. In fact, the only role in the game that really takes hardcore dedication to be good at what they do is a magician, and even they have an easy time being more than just a magician. There's just some bizarre mass hypnosis going on regarding hackers for some reason. That they somehow need to be special and unique and purposely cripple themselves when they don't. Sure, you can make someone who's really good at one particular niche in the game at the exclusion of all else. But that doesn't mean you're not stupid for doing so, nor that the fault doesn't lie entirely in your lap. Example:
Qualities (0 BP): Astral Chameleon, Magician, Infirm. Attributes (275 BP): Body 1, Agility 1, Reaction 1, Strength 1, Charisma 6, Intuition 6, Logic 6, Willpower 6, Edge 2, Essence 6.00, Magic 6 Active Skills (94 BP): Astral Combat 6 (Wards +2), Banishing 4, Etiquette 1 (Astral Entities +2), Navigation 1 (Astral Plane +2), Negotiation 1 (Astral Entities +2), Spellcasting 4, Survival 1 (Astral Plane +2) Knowledge Skills (0 BP): Arabic N, Astral Plane 6, Magical Groups 1 (Astral Explorer's League 3), Metaplanes 4, Named Spirits 4 Spells (12 BP): Analyze Magic, Astral Clairvoyance, Astral Window, Mystic Armor Equipment (19 BP): High Lifestyle (3 months), Weapon Focus 2, 5,000 nuyen of miscellaneous goods. |
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Nov 9 2007, 04:15 AM
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#169
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Agree. Just because a sam can do some hacking and the hacker can do some shooting doesn't negate either role.
And a lot of you keep implying that - players that choose to be primarily a street sam want to hack - players that choose to be primarily a hacker want to kill everyone in sight. It's so integral to so many people's arguments, and I don't buy it one bit. I think a lot of discussion here has devolved to "in theory, under these precise conditions that may potentially one day exist, the hacker is useless, and I'm going to completely ignore anything that shows that they aren't". |
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Nov 9 2007, 04:21 AM
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#170
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yes, there is a problem, because according to the setting, dedicated hackers are useful members of shadowrun teams. according to the rules, they're not. when the rules and the setting starkly contradict each other, i view that as a problem. |
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Nov 9 2007, 04:29 AM
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#171
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
So why aren't they? What do you call a "dedicated hacker?" And if they're so dedicated, why are you upset that a "street samurai who hacks but totally isn't a hacker despite the fact that he hacks" is rendering them obsolete? By your logic, my character is a problem with the rules because dedicated magicians -- of which he is, just of one particular little niche -- are useful members of shadowrun teams. So clearly the rules are at fault for allowing me to create such a shitty character who's sole contribution is to sit on his ass at home and provide astral oversight. And those dumb old "street samurai who cast spells" (read: traditional shadowrunner mages) are rendering my dedicated astral mage obsolete. <e-tear> God forbid he learn to shoot a gun. God forbid he have remotely useful physical attributes. God forbid he have more useful spells. It's not my fault for not giving him them, the setting and the rules clearly destroyed him because I wanted him to be a shitty shadowrunner. (And that stupid logic is exactly what I see you guys continually saying.) |
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Nov 9 2007, 05:00 AM
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#172
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
Doc, for god's sake, read what i'm saying. i'm going to put it in all caps because we've been going at this for almost a full page and you're still arguing the wrong point: I DON'T CARE IF HACKERS NEED TO HAVE COMBAT SKILLS. THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE I AM TRYING TO POINT OUT. i'm not trying to piss you off, but jesus christ, read.
the issue i am trying to point out is that hacking is so easy, and so affordable, that anyone can do it well enough to get by. that's the issue that Gelare is pointing out, and it's part of the issue that's causing FrankTrollman to come up with wildass ideas like brainhacking. |
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Nov 9 2007, 05:15 AM
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#173
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
And then Doc Funk will just repeat his statement that shooting is so easy and affordable that anyone can do it well enough to get by. Such is the glorious(ly stupid) circle of life.
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Nov 9 2007, 05:18 AM
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#174
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Maybe a better direction to go: you have demonstrated that there is at least one dedicated mage build that is ineffectual. Is there at least one dedicated hacker build that is not ineffectual?
I don't know the answer, but I think that's the disconnect here. ~J |
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Nov 9 2007, 05:30 AM
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#175
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
to which i would respond that in the vast majority of groups, a part-time street sam can't replace a full-time street sam. a dedicated street sam will have a place in most games. a dedicated hacker... that's more dicey. |
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