Nash Equilibria and Matrices - Dumpshock Forums

Nash Equilibria and Matrices, Your targets are not stupid.

Cthulhudreams View Member Profile	Nov 8 2007, 12:42 AM Post #26
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328	What everyone is ignoring with the productivity arguments is that the accounting data for 'Bobs concrete' isn't actually something that anyone wants. It could very well be connected to the matrix. But thats not what shadowrunners do. (Well, maybe in your game that is what they do but whatever) Shadowrunners A) Steal new product infomation B) Circumvent security systems C) Access extremely sensative infomation. While the threat risk assessment does dictate that stuff that is not sensative is connected to the matrix. Risk assessments are identifying a threat actor, examining his opportunity, and looking at the impacts. For bob the concrete guy, threat is low (no-one cares, no automated attackers in the conventional sense), opportunity is high (matrix system exposes him to the entire population of the world), impact is low (he probably has a backup. No-one cares to begin with, hell it might help with some tax evasion) Contrast this with new drug infomation from Ares. Threat is REALLY VERY HIGH (as people are willing to pay professional criminals to obtain that information! Seriously!), oppotunity is huge (entire world again) and impact is gigantic (you lose hundreds of millions of dollars, possibly billions.) Seriously, no one is going to accept that level of risk. If you proposed carelessly risking hundreds of millions to your manager today (and it is risking) you'd get stabbed. Potential productivity improvements arn;t going to cover it either. Teams of people working on say.. stuff to treat alzhimers seriously have 3 people in. But lets be generous and say the team has 30, and that they are risking a billion dollars. Pool of threats: If this facility has matrix connectivity in the secure areas, lets say we are increasing the risk of losing the data to the competition from 10% to 40%. This is not unreasonable. give than I just made the pool of threats like 6 billion people. Okay so say salaries are on average 150k a head. (I vaguely remember that as being the average salary for pzifer. Lets triple that to factor in overheads. So a productivity boost of 20% from a matrix connection saves 2.7 million a year. (which its not, because ares employees these people all in a secure installation, but keeps them together, so they can talk to each other (yay!), and makes available a huge range of material. So the things you'd do with the Internet are in fact local. So it's probably less than 20%) Say 1 in 25 drug programs creates an outcome, so you save 67.5 million a year. Okay so given that you are risking 300 million (or more!) from that teams potential outcomes or a saving of 67.5 million, your risk of getting stuff stolen via not having matrix separated systems only has to be 20% less than if they are matrix sepereated. Which given that shadowrunnners and hackers exist, I think it clearly is. So.. yeah. Simple risk management dictates that it shouldn't be connected. Why would anyone connect a sensative system like that to the matrix?

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Nov 8 2007, 01:17 AM Post #27
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	The risk is the same, either way. If the new drug fails to make it to the market, the company is out millions, perhaps billions. Patents are first-come firs-serve. If another company is working on the same drug, and one is, it becomes a race to get the patent first. The time-saving nature of the matrix, the ability for scientists to access the lab for across the world and do work without concern for time may outweigh the inherent risk to data theft, particularly since the only companies which can make use of that data or either working on the product themselves or are so far behind in development that the data won't hep them catch up in time. And, honestly, we're taking about corps that can and do spend billions on toilet paper alone.

Seven-7

Nov 8 2007, 01:30 AM

Post #28

Moving Target

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

12+B = 2B
12+B-B = 2B-B
12+0 = 1B
B = 12

Yeah. Equation solving it can do. It can also send and receive instructions, albeit in a roundabout way.

Of course, the brain is set up to receive sense input from various nerves throughout the body and it is set up to give instructions of various muscles. It is somewhat fallacious to assume that a mechanical arm which is designed to mimic a human arm so closely as to be functionally identical requires making alterations to the brain or that hacking that arm would allow one to hack the brain. My Playstation 2 connects to my TV but I can't use it to change the channel.

9,440,500,233,400,323,000,222
x 1,712,787,123,712,376,736,273,627
--------------------------------------------

Don't worry, I'll give you time.

But before you solve that with your brain, code me a Windows Vista program.

Oh, and if you could do me a favor and tell me when the last time your real arm had a modular plug-in flash light that you could turn on and off with thought.

Also, I'm tired and snarky, I apologize.

Mercer View Member Profile	Nov 8 2007, 01:36 AM Post #29
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600	It seems to me (an uneducated rube) that the necessity of brain-hacking comes down to one of two things. 1) Game Balance. Hackers suck unless they can hack brains. 2) Game Logic. The tech level in the game is sufficient to hack brains, so it doesn't make sense to exclude it. To address the second point first (and you may be asking, "Why didn't you just put the first post second, ass?" and you'd be right), the tech in the game does whatever the game designers or the GM says it does. To borrow a page from Aliens, you can have interstellar travel and 7.62mm rifles and still make a good movie. I'd be more comfortable with hackers hacking brains if computers were more brain-like. (As advanced as SR computers are supposed to be, they still seem to have more in common with the POS I'm clunking my thoughts into now than they do to some sort of dogbot with a brain for an ass.) That is to say, one can include brain-hacking or not depending on their personal preference, but I don't see it as required. To the first point, maybe Hackers do suck ass. I don't really know, not having played one and being relatively new to SR4. A guy in my regular group plays a hacker and seems to have a good time, but he may be deluding himself. I'll bring that up at the next session. Anyway, my question for my more experienced SR4 players would be, Are Hackers the Clerics of SR4? By that, I mean do people play them not because they want to but because what they do is necessary for the game, and so somebody always ends up saying, "Fine, I'll play the damn hacker"? It seems to me (again, an uneducated rube) that hackers (like Mages in Mage: The Ascension) benefit the most from player creativity. The rules for the physical world and the magical world are pretty much strictly defined within the system, but the rules for computers are open to a lot of interpretation. That is, the mechanics are in place to tell you how to do something, but what you do is limited only by what the player can come up with and the GM doesn't disallow.

Seven-7 View Member Profile	Nov 8 2007, 01:48 AM Post #30
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 246 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,198	I'm cool with you doing whatever the hell you want in a game. Who am I to decide? However, if you want any sort of logic you've got to rid of a lot of stuff. Knowsofts Math SPU's Encephelon Virtual Reality Trodes Active Softs Black IC Some programs...

Red View Member Profile	Nov 8 2007, 01:55 AM Post #31
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 29-October 05 Member No.: 7,908	There is an enormous strawman here. There is a difference between denying DNIs, and pointing a signal emitter at somebody across the room, and hacking raw mundane brain meat. (Third angle would be pointing a microwave gun at somebody's brain.) Nobody is arguing with the DNI part. That's awesome stuff. As for the original topic, Nash's equilibrium, there are some solid thoughts there. But I don't think that 2070 is enough time for the computing world to hit the final endgame where things are intrinsically secure or insecure as a matter of logical physics. I.E. either FTL is possible is not. Is secure computing possible, or not? This post has been edited by Red: Nov 8 2007, 01:59 AM

Cthulhudreams

Nov 8 2007, 01:57 AM

Post #32

Runner

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QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Nov 7 2007, 08:17 PM)

The risk is the same, either way. If the new drug fails to make it to the market, the company is out millions, perhaps billions. Patents are first-come firs-serve. If another company is working on the same drug, and one is, it becomes a race to get the patent first. The time-saving nature of the matrix, the ability for scientists to access the lab for across the world and do work without concern for time may outweigh the inherent risk to data theft, particularly since the only companies which can make use of that data or either working on the product themselves or are so far behind in development that the data won't hep them catch up in time.

And, honestly, we're taking about corps that can and do spend billions on toilet paper alone.

you're assuming things about patent law that may or may not apply in a dystopia future. It seems clear to me that the corps do copy each other and wage black warfare to steal each others knowledge - look at the discussion around cybermancy. Or drones. Hell, isn;t that the point?

Anyway, I'd much prefer separated systems in a race case. See, I can infiltrate your network, which effectively gives me TWO teams. Mine, and yours, because I have all the work from your team. Hell, I can pay some research assistants to duplicate it in near real time, (say a day delay to get the video footage, cut it up, and then transport it across to the clean system, which is real time for a project that is going to take years to give fruit) which is cheap, to satisfy the lawyers.

Again, the risks of exposing your systems seem high.

Edit:

QUOTE

Nobody is arguing with the DNI part. That's awesome stuff. As for the original topic, Nash's equilibrium, there are some solid thoughts there. But I don't think that 2070 is enough time for the computing world to hit the final endgame where things are intrinsically secure or insecure as a matter of logical physics. I.E. either FTL is possible is not. Is secure computing possible, or not?

Given agent smith armies and impossibly high teamwork checks, weak encryption, the prevelance and avability of hacksofts, short of airgap, I think the answer in the basic book (as distinct from your question) is no

Gelare

Nov 8 2007, 02:14 AM

Post #33

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Mercer)

...maybe Hackers do suck ass. I don't really know, not having played one and being relatively new to SR4. A guy in my regular group plays a hacker and seems to have a good time, but he may be deluding himself. I'll bring that up at the next session. Anyway, my question for my more experienced SR4 players would be, Are Hackers the Clerics of SR4? By that, I mean do people play them not because they want to but because what they do is necessary for the game, and so somebody always ends up saying, "Fine, I'll play the damn hacker"?

Hackers don't suck ass, I can tell you that much. (As a side note, clerics suck if and only if you use them exclusively as the heal-bitch. With their buffs, they wipe the floor with everything.) They have a fair amount of stuff they can supposedly do. The problem that I've found in my games is that when the hacker wants to do something - anything, usually Data Search for a public access node of a corp, hack into the corp node, whoops, the node detected me, jack out and try again, whoops, jack out and try again, hack into the internal node from the public access node, find the biographical info on the guy the team's supposed to find so they can kill him and dump his body into the sound - me and the hacker go to one side and throw dice at each other, while everyone else plays Guitar Hero. Then in combat, the hacker hides inside a dumpster and pees himself while the adept kills eight guys with bullets to the head and the mage laughs as the guards bursts into flames. And that sucks.

It may be true that objectively speaking, hackers are the most powerful class out there. They can hack your bank account! They can ruin your SIN! They can go into your commlink and force you to send spam messages filled with ads for Viagra and home refinancing to all your friends! They can do this all day long, with a miniscule chance of getting caught thanks to erasing the datatrails and editing the logs, and if they've really called down the Black IC on their heads they can just turn the damn commlink off. And while the hacker is out ruining the life of every person in a Signal 5 radius, the rest of the team is hanging out drinking soykaf. And that sucks.

The hacker, as part of a Shadowrunning team, should a) represent a clear and distinct archetype, and should b) be able to use the abilities of that archetype to kick ass directly. When a player plays a cybersam, he goes, "Sweet, I get to chrome myself up to seriously superhuman speeds and kill people!" When a player plays a mage, he goes, "Sweet, I get to control peoples' actions, turn them into mounds of Oobleck, heal my wounds afterwards, and then kill people!" When a player plays a hacker, there should be something that allows him to say, "Sweet, I get to [direct action against opponent who is right in front of you with a gun pointed to your face] and then kill people!" That blank should not and cannot be filled with [send spam e-mails] or [hack bank account]. Filling it with [zap my opponent's brain, force him to tap dance to the latest, nova-hot song that's sweeping the nation, and then turn it to sludge] is an acceptable substitute.

God fragging dammit, if I put this much time into my research paper, I'd be done by now. I'm going to get back to productivity. Cheers!

eidolon

Nov 8 2007, 02:33 AM

Post #34

ghostrider

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QUOTE (Mercer)

1) Game Balance. Hackers suck unless they can hack brains.

2) Game Logic. The tech level in the game is sufficient to hack brains, so it doesn't make sense to exclude it.

But the fact is:
1) They don't, not in the slightest, and certainly don't suck just because their role isn't the same as every other character.

2) It isn't, at least not without DNI and a sim module modified to carry hot sim.

and

QUOTE (Mercer)

That is, the mechanics are in place to tell you how to do something, but what you do is limited only by what the player can come up with and the GM doesn't disallow.

That's the crux, right there. I completely agree that there isn't enough example of what to do exactly in the main book. The expanded book is coming up soonish.

But even with the little we have now, we know some basic things that counter just about every "problem" people have with the matrix as presented, if only you use them.

- Just about all devices produced relatively recently have wireless capability.
- Devices have either a device rating, or more detailed stats at GM discression.
- Hackers hack into devices wirelessly.

I had a hard time with it at first too. At first, I flat didn't think I'd like the idea. Then I read the story and rules and came to like the idea (even if I think the timing was a bit silly or less detailed as I'd like; again, Unwired might help). But I still had trouble figuring out just exactly what the rules were for. Then, after and during some really good conversations, I just sorta had a "SR4 matrix epiphany".

Devices (electronics, mechanical things with onboard computers, anything you say is a "device" as the rules deem a device) usually have wireless capability, and it is too beneficial and useful to want to turn it off. There are actually fluff and mechanical penalties for doing so. Hackers hack devices that have wireless capability. They do this by rolling a pool of dice, made up of skill + program (or other pool if you house rule it) against numbers given in the rules. If they succeed, they get to do stuff.

That's it. It doesn't need to be more complicated. It certainly can, but it doesn't need or have to be.

WearzManySkins

Nov 8 2007, 02:56 AM

Post #35

Neophyte Runner

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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

QUOTE (Adarael @ Nov 7 2007, 06:44 PM)

Your logic is faulty. By that rationale, any time your computer connects to the internet, it is being 'hacked'.

To 'hack' an object, one is instructing the object to do something that it would not normally do, or is otherwise ordinarily prevented from doing. Simply sending data to it isn't hacking it.

Actually, in this case it is. The human brain is not set up to receive computer data at all. It is not designed to run computer processes, perform equations with its processing power, send or receive instructions.

It's a biological problem solving lump of meat. The fact that it can be made to interact with a cybereye or an encephalon or a datajack or a blackhammer program is a result of people using the power of artifice to subvert the coding of the brain to make it do something it was never supposed to. Destruction is easier than construction. Entropy flows down hill.

That an external device (nanopaste trodes) could project coherent information into your brain is much harder to believe than that an external device (commlink) could project destructive interference into your nervous system that would kill you.

This is a 2071 where the brain is repeatedly violated. It is opened up, fed information, forced to process that information a trillion times over, and then that information is sucked right back out. People do this to themselves and they do it on purpose. But this is biology not Magic, so the fact that you are willing will purchase you a cup of coffee if and only if you also supply 1.5 nuyen alongside.

Once it is established that the entire brain can be transformed by external electronic impulses into a huge calclator, it is insulting to my intelligence to tell me that it cannot also be turned into a steaming pile of useless pithed meat.

-Frank

OK Frank will work you thru it slowly then. :)

SR4 page 319

QUOTE

Sim Module: The sim module is an ASIST interface that controls the simsense experience. It translates computer signals (simsense data) into neural signals, allowing the user to directly experience simsense programs and virtual reality (edited). A sim module must be accessed via trodes or a direct neural interface (datajack, implanted commlink, etc).

Standard (legal) sim modules only interpret cold sim(see p. 229). It is possible to modify a sim module to allow the user to experience hot sim (p. 229) and BTLs (p. 250) with a Hardware + Logic (10, 1 hour) Extended Test, but this also makes the user more vulnerable to Black IC programs. As a safety precaution, sim mods override your motor functions while you are fully immersed in VR/simsense, so that you don’t blindly thrash around in the real world and potentially injure yourself or break things. This means that your physical body is limp while you’re online, as if you were sleeping. This reticular activation system (RAS) override can also be disabled with a Hardware + Logic (5, 1 hour) Extended Test, at the user’s own risk.

So here it plainly says that the simsense signal must be translated ie transduced into neural signals, not that the simsense signal directly affects the brain. Also states that the Sim Module must have its RAS override disabled.

So the chain of devices is this BTL Chip or Comm Link, then the Sim Module and the last device is the datajack or Trode Net. One note, an implanted commlink simsense signal enters commlink, then the Sim Module then the brain. Think of the trode net as a skinlink,,ie it can not be hacked.

So that means in todays words your IR audio video remote can not microwave your dinner. :D Two different devices using two different frequencies. :D

As in an another thread this is what actually is the chain of devices is. Not what you "Believe" them to be, for your non shadowrun ideas of balance etc.

So consider your intelligence insulted. :D

Mercer

Nov 8 2007, 03:19 AM

Post #36

Running Target

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QUOTE (Seven-7)

I'm cool with you doing whatever the hell you want in a game. Who am I to decide? However, if you want any sort of logic you've got to rid of a lot of stuff.

If we were really serious about logic we'd probably have to dump 99% of the game. I mean, its a game about elves and faeries and Japanese corporations; its a game where an ork on a motorcycle can fire an Uzi at unicorn that's been set loose in a shopping mall. It seems a little disingenuous to say, "Its a matter of personal preference, but my way is the only was that makes sense."

There's all sorts of reasons why I don't care for brainhacking, and I'm sure there's all sorts of reasons you like it. For it to be something other than personal preference the system would have to not work without it, either because of:

1) Game Balance. (No one plays hackers because they suck without the ability to fry brains.) Or,

2) Game Logic. (The game makes no sense unless hackers can fry brains.)

It seems like proving either is an uphill battle because 1) People do play hackers, so there must be some players who feel they work even without the ability to fry brains, and 2) The game world has been clicking along for 20ish years without brain-frying hackers.

@Gelare: You seem to be saying that hackers are the most powerful people out of combat and disadvantaged in combat, and to fix this they should be the most powerful people out of combat and equally as powerful as the other characters in combat. Why wouldn't every group be four hackers plus one unlucky bastard they force to play a mage? (I mean, if a hacker can do just what a mage does-- fry brains-- but a mage can't do everything else a hacker does--ruin lives, bank accounts-- doesn't the mage just become the poor sap that's there so the GM can't swamp the group with spirits?)

Cthulhudreams

Nov 8 2007, 03:29 AM

Post #37

Runner

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QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 7 2007, 10:19 PM)

QUOTE (Seven-7)

I'm cool with you doing whatever the hell you want in a game. Who am I to decide? However, if you want any sort of logic you've got to rid of a lot of stuff.

1) Game Balance. (No one plays hackers because they suck without the ability to fry brains.) Or,

2) Game Logic. (The game makes no sense unless hackers can fry brains.)

People are totally okay with playing Dungeons and Dragons the most popular RPG ever, despite the fact it is currently ludicrously unbalanced in favour of spell casting. Lots of people will tell you about their great fighter character in 3.5, despite the fact it is possible to do everything he can do better by being a druid. And then do a whole bunch of other stuff first.

I don't think anyone is disputing that the Shadowrun 4th ed rules don't mostly work, but that isn;t the same thing as being great. What the proposed rules provide is a framework for explaining all the actions in game frank would like to see hackers doing in a clear consistent manner that enables cooperative storytelling, mutual understanding and suspension of disbelief in a way that may not be possible with the current setup. It may be possible for you! But I definately think some elements are much nicer.

hyzmarca

Nov 8 2007, 03:48 AM

Post #38

Midnight Toker

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QUOTE

9,440,500,233,400,323,000,222
x 1,712,787,123,712,376,736,273,627
--------------------------------------------
Don't worry, I'll give you time.

Also, I'm tired and snarky, I apologize.

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 I would finish it but that's just tedious. Give me something hard.

blood_kite

Nov 8 2007, 03:59 AM

Post #39

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QUOTE (Gelare @ Nov 7 2007, 06:14 PM)

When a player plays a hacker, there should be something that allows him to say, "Sweet, I get to [direct action against opponent who is right in front of you with a gun pointed to your face] and then kill people!" That blank should not and cannot be filled with [send spam e-mails] or [hack bank account]. Filling it with [zap my opponent's brain, force him to tap dance to the latest, nova-hot song that's sweeping the nation, and then turn it to sludge] is an acceptable substitute.

Can the blank be [hack gun and engage safety] followed by [hack cybereyes through smartlink and force them to reboot]?

Someone made a joke about hacking the opposing hacker's commlink and have it send spam pop-ups. How about [hack opposing hacker's commlink and use the admin rights his commlink has been given to the rest of the team's commlinks to send a maximized opaque message pop-up that the user is not authorized to move or close]. Force the opposing team to either remove/shutdown goggles, glasses, contacts or sit there blind while the only thing they see with their cybereyes is a message stating 'The cake is a lie.'

kzt

Nov 8 2007, 04:27 AM

Post #40

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)

So.. yeah. Simple risk management dictates that it shouldn't be connected. Why would anyone connect a sensative system like that to the matrix?

You obviously don't work in the same world that I do....

Hank View Member Profile	Nov 8 2007, 04:30 AM Post #41
Target Group: Members Posts: 76 Joined: 12-September 07 Member No.: 13,233	There is an alternate fix to the inherent problem with hackers... they pull the GM away, they suxor at combat, etc. Make hacking very quick to play out and a relatively small investment for a character. In other words... Hacker: Hey, Sammie, can I be on your team? I can hack computers for you from my mom's basement! Sammie: Uh, no thanks, kid. I can hack just fine. I ain't splitting my take with you. a.k.a. what Catalyst gave us. :\|

Cthulhudreams

Nov 8 2007, 04:32 AM

Post #42

Runner

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QUOTE (kzt)

QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Nov 7 2007, 05:42 PM)

So.. yeah. Simple risk management dictates that it shouldn't be connected. Why would anyone connect a sensative system like that to the matrix?

You obviously don't work in the same world that I do....

Yeah, people are fantastically bad at risk, and the private sector has a much greater appetite for risk than the public sector.

Factors that are undoubtably all at play :)

But again, I think people underestimate just how.. breachable.. matrix security is in 2070, and everyone is immersed in that breachable environment. I know modern computer security isn't perfect, but compared to 2070 it is a fortress of iron.

(I think the IT profession as a whole today is extremely bad at risk too, usually grossly over and underestimating the value and risk to various systems in often insane ways), but 2070 is a different kettle of fish. It just simply isn't possible to secure a matrix connected system against hackers, even with 'best practise' security procedures.

Kyoto Kid

Nov 8 2007, 04:40 AM

Post #43

Bushido Cowgirl

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QUOTE (blood_kite)

Someone made a joke about hacking the opposing hacker's commlink and have it send spam pop-ups. How about [hack opposing hacker's commlink and use the admin rights his commlink has been given to the rest of the team's commlinks to send a maximized opaque message pop-up that the user is not authorized to move or close]. Force the opposing team to either remove/shutdown goggles, glasses, contacts or sit there blind while the only thing they see with their cybereyes is a message stating 'The cake is a lie.'

...had my Matrix Specialist do something sort of like that. Involved a gang of dwarves, a luddite elf (whom they were about to beat up on), and an ultra hardcore dwarven porn site. Managed to get the elf out of there without a scratch. :grinbig:

Gelare

Nov 8 2007, 04:42 AM

Post #44

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Mercer)

@Gelare: You seem to be saying that hackers are the most powerful people out of combat and disadvantaged in combat, and to fix this they should be the most powerful people out of combat and equally as powerful as the other characters in combat. Why wouldn't every group be four hackers plus one unlucky bastard they force to play a mage? (I mean, if a hacker can do just what a mage does-- fry brains-- but a mage can't do everything else a hacker does--ruin lives, bank accounts-- doesn't the mage just become the poor sap that's there so the GM can't swamp the group with spirits?)

Well, see, now I just have to make my argument in the opposite direction. Under Frank's optional rules - which is, of course, what we're talking about - hackers can hack brains, but it isn't exceptionally easy, and it isn't completely unlimited like a mage's Control Thoughts spell is. Hacker's can't and shouldn't be able to do everything mages can do. Hacking brains is one significant thing that hackers could do. They cannot use Increase (anything) to make people ridiculous, they can't make people fly, can't make instant walls, can't shatter everything in the room instantly, and can't take control of the brains of everyone in sight at once with a single spell. My point is not that hackers should be as good as mages at what mages do, but they should be reasonably awesome in combat anyway.

I honestly don't know what a sammie does other than shoot people in the face really well - and he does do that better than any mage or hacker - but where hackers and mages are concerned, they both get cool stuff to do. Mages can zap brains, hackers can hack brains. Mages can stunball people, hackers can flood their commlinks. Mages can do astral recon, hackers can do matrix overwatch. Balancing the incentives = win.

QUOTE (blood_kite)

Someone made a joke about hacking the opposing hacker's commlink and have it send spam pop-ups.

Me, how ya doing folks, you've been a great audience, I'll be here all week.

QUOTE

How about [hack opposing hacker's commlink and use the admin rights his commlink has been given to the rest of the team's commlinks to send a maximized opaque message pop-up that the user is not authorized to move or close]. Force the opposing team to either remove/shutdown goggles, glasses, contacts or sit there blind while the only thing they see with their cybereyes is a message stating 'The cake is a lie.'

That is a possibility, but by the time the hacker is able to go through everyone's commlink defenses and do that, he's already got eighty-six boxes on his physical condition monitor filled because while he was sitting in the dumpster trying to hack the opposing team to inconvenience (but not incapacitate or kill them), the enemies shot a rocket at his dumpster, then burned the remains with a fire spirit, then scattered the remains with ricocheting suppressive fire. Combat in SR is nasty, brutish, and short.

One of the problems with the basic model is that hackers can't use their powers to kill anyone who hasn't been so kind as to illegally modify their sim box and has decided to go completely limp in the middle of a firefight, in which case they have problems anyway. Some people are okay with that. I'm not. Even if I could blind all my enemies by flooding their commlinks, they can just turn their commlinks off and shoot me. Let's say you hacked the sammie and made it so his cybereyes go completely opaque. Congratulations! With the -6 penalty from blind fire and eight chances to roll per round of combat, you will be dead in 0.92638 seconds, and then there will be cake. The absolute best you can hope for is that the enemy sammie is so cybered he's got almost no meat left, and you can make him lie quietly on the ground. That's nice, but it's not enough. It really isn't.

Seven-7

Nov 8 2007, 04:56 AM

Post #45

Moving Target

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QUOTE (WearzManySkins)

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

QUOTE (Adarael @ Nov 7 2007, 06:44 PM)

Your logic is faulty. By that rationale, any time your computer connects to the internet, it is being 'hacked'.

To 'hack' an object, one is instructing the object to do something that it would not normally do, or is otherwise ordinarily prevented from doing. Simply sending data to it isn't hacking it.

Actually, in this case it is. The human brain is not set up to receive computer data at all. It is not designed to run computer processes, perform equations with its processing power, send or receive instructions.

It's a biological problem solving lump of meat. The fact that it can be made to interact with a cybereye or an encephalon or a datajack or a blackhammer program is a result of people using the power of artifice to subvert the coding of the brain to make it do something it was never supposed to. Destruction is easier than construction. Entropy flows down hill.

That an external device (nanopaste trodes) could project coherent information into your brain is much harder to believe than that an external device (commlink) could project destructive interference into your nervous system that would kill you.

This is a 2071 where the brain is repeatedly violated. It is opened up, fed information, forced to process that information a trillion times over, and then that information is sucked right back out. People do this to themselves and they do it on purpose. But this is biology not Magic, so the fact that you are willing will purchase you a cup of coffee if and only if you also supply 1.5 nuyen alongside.

Once it is established that the entire brain can be transformed by external electronic impulses into a huge calclator, it is insulting to my intelligence to tell me that it cannot also be turned into a steaming pile of useless pithed meat.

-Frank

OK Frank will work you thru it slowly then. :)

SR4 page 319

QUOTE

Sim Module: The sim module is an ASIST interface that controls the simsense experience. It translates computer signals (simsense data) into neural signals, allowing the user to directly experience simsense programs and virtual reality (edited). A sim module must be accessed via trodes or a direct neural interface (datajack, implanted commlink, etc).

Standard (legal) sim modules only interpret cold sim(see p. 229). It is possible to modify a sim module to allow the user to experience hot sim (p. 229) and BTLs (p. 250) with a Hardware + Logic (10, 1 hour) Extended Test, but this also makes the user more vulnerable to Black IC programs. As a safety precaution, sim mods override your motor functions while you are fully immersed in VR/simsense, so that you don’t blindly thrash around in the real world and potentially injure yourself or break things. This means that your physical body is limp while you’re online, as if you were sleeping. This reticular activation system (RAS) override can also be disabled with a Hardware + Logic (5, 1 hour) Extended Test, at the user’s own risk.

So here it plainly says that the simsense signal must be translated ie transduced into neural signals, not that the simsense signal directly affects the brain. Also states that the Sim Module must have its RAS override disabled.

So the chain of devices is this BTL Chip or Comm Link, then the Sim Module and the last device is the datajack or Trode Net. One note, an implanted commlink simsense signal enters commlink, then the Sim Module then the brain. Think of the trode net as a skinlink,,ie it can not be hacked.

So that means in todays words your IR audio video remote can not microwave your dinner. :D Two different devices using two different frequencies. :D

As in an another thread this is what actually is the chain of devices is. Not what you "Believe" them to be, for your non shadowrun ideas of balance etc.

So consider your intelligence insulted. :D

You proved two things:

Jack

Shit

That is all.

Cthulhudreams

Nov 8 2007, 05:03 AM

Post #46

Runner

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QUOTE (Gelare)

I honestly don't know what a sammie does other than shoot people in the face really well - and he does do that better than any mage or hacker - but where hackers and mages are concerned, they both get cool stuff to do. Mages can zap brains, hackers can hack brains. Mages can stunball people, hackers can flood their commlinks. Mages can do astral recon, hackers can do matrix overwatch. Balancing the incentives = win.

I think the 'archetypical' sammie clearly has to be a bio sammie with no detectable illegal modifications, that non MAD scnable pistol and a monowhip.

Then he has a trick that no-one else does, which is he can walk into an extremely high secure areas and still kill everyone. The rest of the team flashes big red 'DANGER WILL ROBINSON' signs when they turn up - he is completely inconspicuous.

Gelare

Nov 8 2007, 05:10 AM

Post #47

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)

QUOTE (Gelare @ Nov 7 2007, 11:42 PM)

I honestly don't know what a sammie does other than shoot people in the face really well - and he does do that better than any mage or hacker - but where hackers and mages are concerned, they both get cool stuff to do. Mages can zap brains, hackers can hack brains. Mages can stunball people, hackers can flood their commlinks. Mages can do astral recon, hackers can do matrix overwatch. Balancing the incentives = win.

I think the 'archetypical' sammie clearly has to be a bio sammie with no detectable illegal modifications, that non MAD scnable pistol and a monowhip.

Then he has a trick that no-one else does, which is he can walk into an extremely high secure areas and still kill everyone. The rest of the team flashes big red 'DANGER WILL ROBINSON' signs when they turn up - he is completely inconspicuous.

Hey, don't look at me, I never play sammies. Like I said, I honestly don't know what they do other than shoot people - there's gotta be something they spend all those build points on, I just don't know what. Feel free to enlighten me. You're right, of course, that to a bored security guard, Hatchetman looks a lot more conspicuous than a non-cybered person. It is implicit in my examples that we're talking about generic combat where everyone can use their abilities to their fullest capacity, and that's not always, or even usually, how Shadowrun works. Of course, maybe the sammie shot all the guards on the way in. Heck if I know. The important bit, I think, is that when everyone, hackers included, has something productive they can do in pitched combat, then that's a Good Thing™. I'll admit though, I'm a bit of a combat junkie. I play D&D, too - so sue me. :P

Fortune

Nov 8 2007, 05:13 AM

Post #48

Immoral Elf

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QUOTE (Gelare @ Nov 8 2007, 02:42 PM)

One of the problems with the basic model is that hackers can't use their powers to kill anyone who hasn't been so kind as to illegally modify their sim box and has decided to go completely limp in the middle of a firefight, in which case they have problems anyway.

This is just a really flawed premise. Hackers can use pretty much everything in the surrounding environment to screw over, or even physically damage or kill an opponent, all without ever even considering hacking that opponent's commlink or cyber (let alone their brain).

This whole conversation about making the Hacker 'class' equal to other 'classes' is just strange. One of the strengths of the Shadowrun system is that there is no real 'class' system. There is a choice of using Magic (or Resonance), or no Magic (or Resonance), but other than that the options are all there for each and every character to use.

Gelare

Nov 8 2007, 05:18 AM

Post #49

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 8 2007, 12:13 AM)

QUOTE (Gelare @ Nov 8 2007, 02:42 PM)

One of the problems with the basic model is that hackers can't use their powers to kill anyone who hasn't been so kind as to illegally modify their sim box and has decided to go completely limp in the middle of a firefight, in which case they have problems anyway.

This is just a really flawed premise. Hackers can use pretty much everything in the surrounding environment to screw over, or even physically damage an opponent, all without ever even considering hacking that opponent's commlink or cyber (let alone their brain).

You're really going to have to give me some examples on this one, 'cause I think it's a pretty sound premise. Sure, a rigger can kill his opponents five ways to Sunday, but what's a hacker going to do? Make the toaster hop viciously toward his opponent, heating elements glowing ominously? And no, an easily hackable car located conveniently nearby is not a typical component of combat in SR, not in my games, anyway.

Edit to your edit:

QUOTE (Fortune)

This whole conversation about making the Hacker 'class' equal to other 'classes' is just strange. One of the strengths of the Shadowrun system is that there is no real 'class' system. There is a choice of using Magic (or Resonance), or no Magic (or Resonance), but other than that the options are all there for each and every character to use.

This is totally true, and it's one of my favorite things about the SR system. But there are archetypes in the BBB for a reason, and I use 'class' synonymously with 'archetype'. If I say sammie, we all know roughly what I mean, because that's a class. If I say mage, hacker, rigger, adept, pornomancer, we all understand. So call them classes, call them archetypes, call them specializations, whatever you like, the fact of the matter is maybe players like to play a character like that, and discussion about them is valuable.

Cthulhudreams

Nov 8 2007, 05:20 AM

Post #50

Runner

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QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 8 2007, 12:13 AM)

QUOTE (Gelare @ Nov 8 2007, 02:42 PM)

One of the problems with the basic model is that hackers can't use their powers to kill anyone who hasn't been so kind as to illegally modify their sim box and has decided to go completely limp in the middle of a firefight, in which case they have problems anyway.

This is just a really flawed premise. Hackers can use pretty much everything in the surrounding environment to screw over, or even physically damage or kill an opponent, all without ever even considering hacking that opponent's commlink or cyber (let alone their brain).

I thought half of the point of frank's argument was that the nash equilibrum encouraged by the rules (as opposed to the fluff, we are shooting to match those up here) was that the hacker COULDN'T use the environment because pretty much none of that stuff would be connected up to the 'trix because of the danger of a hacker hacking into the drone/mobile crane system/security system/ED-209/toxic waste dispenser and using it.

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