 Nash Equilibria and Matrices, Your targets are not stupid. |
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 Nov 13 2007, 09:54 PM
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#301
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Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
the repetitive thumping sound you hear is my head banging on the desk. a trode net does not necessarily emit "waves" of anything, much less "waves" of anything that can be read by the brain over any significant distance. trode technology, in SR, has existed for over forty years. if trode nets were capable of putting data into brains over significant distances simply by amping up the power to the trodes, don't you think maybe someone would have figured it out before now? they'd have probably figured it out forty-odd years ago, when the technology was first being developed. the fact that it hasn't been done means that it can't be done without a really big change in the underlying technology. |
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Nov 13 2007, 10:01 PM
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#302
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle 'black'? :D ;) |
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Nov 13 2007, 10:06 PM
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#303
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 698 Joined: 26-October 06 From: Iowa, United States Member No.: 9,720 |
The underlying technology of old mainframes and computers today are still the same. 0 or 1, our computers aren't doing anything fundamentally different, we've just upped the power on them. It takes time to find a way to increase the power to the point its needed. For the size of commlinks in 2070 for storage capacity, took room size computers 2030. Perhaps the ray wasn't probably before because you'd have to hook it up to the stepvan in order to get the necessary output. We're talking about future-tech here, and this is well within reason with the other technologies ramping up. I'm just saying not everyone can hammer you mom, but I'm sure Ares could hammer your mom, and if they wanted she'd like it too. :D
Existance does not mean that the availability is for everyone. Take the houserule or leave it. If a hacker is finding a lack of things to do and needs the stun gun, throw it in. With the confusion of the matrix rules to some it might be easier to give your hacker a blackout gun and put him with the gun slingers. Some GM's don't like the Matrix or try to avoid it, and some players like hackers/technomancers this is a way for both to get what they want. My technomancer finds enough things to do without having to deal with meat bodies as well. Thats what the bruisers are for. |
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Nov 13 2007, 10:09 PM
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#304
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
aaaaAAAAAAaaaaaAAAAAAaaaaah! |
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Nov 13 2007, 10:17 PM
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#305
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 698 Joined: 26-October 06 From: Iowa, United States Member No.: 9,720 |
:smokin: Just took one out it looks like.
It's a very simplified statement, and I'm well aware of that (I'm actually an Application Developer). But saying the technology would of existed 40 years ago if it was possible at all is very closed minded. Technology in Real Life has almost bipassed 2040 SR, thats the whole reason the timeline had to be pressed forward to 2070 to make up for what we have now that wasn't included in SR3. |
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Nov 13 2007, 10:30 PM
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#306
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it's not simplified, it's wrong and it's misleading and it has no bearing on what's being discussed. it's wrong because power requirements for computers have gone down as efficiency has gone up. it's misleading because the amount of power going into a computer doesn't have a direct bearing on what that computer is capable of, except in extremely broad terms (less power means no worky, more components means larger power requirements). it's got no bearing on what's being discussed because you're treating trode nets like radio transceivers. radio transceivers throw signal further if you feed them more power. if trode nets fed radio waves to your brain, amping the power to the trodes would make them work at longer distances. but they don't, because the brain is not a radio receiver. it is a receiver for some kind of crazy crap the principles behind which have never been discussed in SR. all we know about it is that for forty years, no progress has been made on getting that crap to affect the brain from distances longer than touching the skin of the head (Frank's wacky claims about synthskin, for which he has yet to provide a page reference, notwithstanding).
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Nov 13 2007, 10:31 PM
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#307
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
If the technology (or means) existed to amplify the existing 'trode nets into large-scale brain wave transceivers, then the new wireless matrix would have been built along those lines instead of how it developed.
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Nov 13 2007, 11:18 PM
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#308
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
I finally found it; he is refering to Altskin Augmentation, 113
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Nov 13 2007, 11:40 PM
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#309
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Right... just like wireless itself which took them well over 40 years to figure out. Sorry, but there are huge blank spots in the SR tech trees that can easily be filled in as needed.
Do it again. Do it HARD! |
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Nov 14 2007, 01:54 AM
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#310
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that would be a great point if i'd ever said that particular blank spot couldn't be filled in. but that isn't what i said. what i said is, that blank spot hasn't been filled in. FrankTrollman's brainhacking cannot work in SR without major revisions to the technology--a fact that even he admits (sometimes).
well, if that's what Frank's talking about, Frank really needs to go back and read. a skinlink does not connect any device to your brain. it connects devices to each other via the transmission medium of your skin (or, rather, the electrical field around your skin). |
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Nov 14 2007, 02:04 AM
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#311
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yep. You still need a Datajack or 'trode net to achieve DNI. |
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Nov 14 2007, 02:18 AM
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#312
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
What you said is just another attempt to crap on an idea by saying it isn't supported by a technology that is barely fleshed out. Frank chooses to fill in the blank in a manner he feels is good for his game. You demand the blank remain unfilled just so his idea can't work. You should go back to banging your head now. |
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Nov 14 2007, 02:31 AM
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#313
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
no, what i said was a direct response to Nightwalker450. what Nightwalker450 said was different from what Frank said--Frank made up new, different technology for his brainhacking, and aside from the fact that the technology he's come up with is not internally consistent, i have no problem with that technology. Nightwalker450 was saying that brainhacking can be done using SR's existing technology. these are two different concepts. one, if fleshed out, could be workable, however i feel about its inclusion in SR. the other is unworkable. learn to read, and get off my dick. |
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Nov 14 2007, 01:41 PM
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#314
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
It may be unworkable from your underatanding of the technology. However, neither of us live in that world. However, both of us understand that spinoff developments can occur rapidly and that they could account for almost anything. Internal consistancy depends on a lot of unsaid thing - usually the purview of the GM. SR already has a number of things that nare not internally consistent in the base setting, yetr most are willing to accept them if they lead to the gming experience they want to have.
Learn to imagine, and... Your dick? That's a pretty sad response. Once you start putting your dick into the argument, we've really go nowhere else to go, do we? Go put that away and come back when you've finished pleasuring yourself. |
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Nov 14 2007, 02:19 PM
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#315
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Some would say there's nowhere to go after that but down, but I think there are a lot of places we can go with his dick. ä¸å‡ºã?—希望ã?‹ï¼Ÿ ~J |
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Nov 14 2007, 02:27 PM
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#316
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 698 Joined: 26-October 06 From: Iowa, United States Member No.: 9,720 |
http://www.navysbirprogram.com/NavySearch/...6A-1E89970EA8BD Looks like stun rays are already in the works. The navy is trying to do such in one of two ways...
This is research in progress, and not a finished product. But I'm sure given 60 years they can come up with something. Anyways enough back and forth argument for me. Just originally chimed in to support Frank didn't expect it to end with mfd getting... yah. |
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Nov 14 2007, 02:55 PM
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#317
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Target Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 9-November 07 Member No.: 14,105 |
I dunno, the difference between a brain hacking ray and that stun ray is about the same difference as reprogramming a computer while it's running without a net connection and hitting the computer with basically a wireless taser. The first changes the way it works and processes things, the second forces so much current through the system that it'll shut down.
I'm not touching the whole brainhacking debate with a 10 foot pole, but this is just a fallacious arguement. |
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Nov 14 2007, 03:22 PM
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#318
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
I'm with Paradigm on the "stun ray != mind control ray" argument. Bullets disrupt brain processes too, but another 60 years of development isn't going to produce lead-based mind control bullets. :D
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Nov 14 2007, 06:07 PM
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#319
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
what does it say about Shadowrun that most threads on these forums seem to devolve (well, evolve) into sexual innuendo? |
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Nov 14 2007, 06:13 PM
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#320
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Two things. 1) Shadowrun appeals to a mature audience. 2) Mature audiences...aren't. |
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Nov 14 2007, 08:18 PM
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#321
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Target Group: Members Posts: 76 Joined: 12-September 07 Member No.: 13,233 |
I can't believe this thread is still going. Is anyone going to change their minds about whether brain-hacking should/shouldn't be allowed? Anyone?
Maybe we should have a thread about whether chocolate or strawberry ice-cream is tastier. |
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Nov 14 2007, 08:23 PM
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#322
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Brain hacking should be allowed. It was one of the more sinister uses of select BTLs in previous editions. What shouldn't be allowed is "naked brain" hacking, that is hacking an unwired brain from afar by focusing wickedly invisible Brainhammer rays at the target.
Capture the target, throw a trode net on his head, then go to town all Mad Scientist like with your custom and ridiculously illegal programs and you're totally fitting into the flavor and style of the game. Sitting at a coffee shop sipping your cappuccino while randomly hacking any brain around you just to get your rocks off... not so much. |
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Nov 14 2007, 08:34 PM
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#323
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Honestl I think we should just split off the argument into whether we prefer Tarja or Anette. Personally, I think Tarja is the better singer, but I also understand that in reality it's basically Tuomas who writes all the material. So when Tarja couldn't juggle her family with the demands of the band the rest of them were faced with the stark choice of getting a different lead singer or functionally disbanding. Under the circumstances, "firing" Tarja makes perfect sense. That being said, some people look at the idea that a signal can propagate for 3 centimeters but not 30 meters and see complete madness that they can't accept. Other people look at the idea that a signal might be calculated and directed like a billiard ball and wouldn't have the same effect as a non-directional broadcast and see complete madness that they can't accept. Some people can't accept either idea. Some people accept both ideas easily. I myself can't accept the first and easily accept the second. But yeah, I don't think that there's a lot of "convincing" being done. It's why I split this argument off into this thread in the first place. It's not really a venue to convince people with different points of view and it never has been. It was literally created as a welt to contain the puss of an increasingly vitriolic and pointless conversation and keep it from poisoning the blood of the original thread. -Frank |
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Nov 14 2007, 10:36 PM
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#324
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
What we need is a poll so people can focus all their convictions on one furious click of a radio button.
Once we have a complete list, I'll post a poll. Of course a poll won't decide anything, these are just houserules, but I'm curious to see what the distribution is. So what are all the brain-hacking variations on the table now?
I think we could also post a correlating poll on whether or not trodenets should allow someone to receive simsense, maybe also a poll on whether brainhacking should cost extra BP somehow instead of just programs/hardware. |
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Nov 15 2007, 12:07 AM
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#325
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
This I have no issues with. Like you say, it's within the setting. This makes sense. Reaching out across a room / store / street / city and brain hacking some unwired and unconnected schmuck who made the mistake of waking up... doesn't make sense. |
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