 Nash Equilibria and Matrices, Your targets are not stupid. |
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 Nov 15 2007, 04:01 AM
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#326
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Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
it's not about understanding the technology, it's about understanding what the books say the technology is capable of. |
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Nov 15 2007, 04:18 AM
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#327
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Neophyte Runner Group: Validating Posts: 2,283 Joined: 12-October 07 Member No.: 13,662 |
I can agree w/ this interpretation. But I'd say that brain hacking would require special equipment, not just go through the guys commlink through the trode net in his combat helmet. You'd need something capable of hot-sim at the least. Say knock the guy out using stun damage, and when he comes to he doesn't know he's in a BTL. I disagree completely with any kind of... I'm just reading his brain from across the room... you decked his comlink... you see his trode net... you have an EEG, use it how you will. Maybe you get a bonus on lie detector tests, but you can't 'read' his mind's thoughts. My take is the trode net only reads the muscle stuff, and in the case of hot-sim can make them 'feel' things as well. The very most basic form of 'interaction'. (if this nerve is twitching so is his pinky) To be honost, the 'best' form of brain hacking I can think of would be trapping the 'victim' in a fully immersive illusion so he doesn't know he's in it. Maybe throw in a dose of that memory stimulator thingy they have to use on cyborgs/cyberzombies to keep them alive. Though that's just like the BTL's mentioned above... need to know the guys password... make him think he's on his normal daily schedule and nothing else has happened... when he enters it you got it. Raises some interesting questions... how do you 'know' you're in a dream. How does the psyche seperate itself from the sim when it realizes it? |
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Nov 15 2007, 11:28 AM
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#328
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
It's also about understanding that the book doesn't say everything about SR tech (those big blank spots, remember?). Using your imagination to fill in those gaps is the step I was pushing you towards.
DNI most certainly does not work through stimulation/reading muscles. That would have to be a form of Indirect Neural Interface. Even if you don't likek the idea of long-distance DNI, the game establishes that short-range links can and do occur with frequency in the SR world. Brainhacking simply requires that the range be increased as a starting point. |
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Nov 15 2007, 12:16 PM
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#329
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
And it's one thing to use your imagination to fill in some harmless gaps that add to the feel and flavor of the Shadowrun reality, enhance the story, and bring to life the drama of a game or a character. It's something else altogether to use your imagination to "fill in gaps" that fundamentally change, in massive ways, how some things work. |
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Nov 15 2007, 01:58 PM
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#330
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the book says everything it needs to on the subject of trodes working over a distance, just as the book says everything it needs to on the subject of trodes negating gravity for the wearer. if trodes could perform either of those functions, it would be kind of a big deal. you can assume they can't because it's never been mentioned that they can, just as you can assume--until you hear otherwise--that Godzilla isn't currently stomping around Tokyo. |
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Nov 15 2007, 03:00 PM
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#331
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Thats NeoTokyo. And once Corp Enclaves is available there will be a run against some biodrone research facility for my players. Nuff said.
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Nov 15 2007, 04:31 PM
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#332
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Tarja is probably the stronger singer, but Anette's style is so very different (less trained/perfected, more raw and, for lack of a better word, undefined) that it's hard to compare, really. I was concerned that they'd lose some of their edge with a new lead singer, but I was truly impressed by their new material. Do we have to keep referring to them by pronoun ;) </hijack for shiggles> |
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Nov 15 2007, 06:18 PM
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#333
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
They may change, as all of their kind may IMO. Still, they are not the same as before. --
You could have named the thread "brainhacking". Seeing that there was not going to be a discussion about proper application of game theory anyway. If work continues on this (alltogether) great revision, you should probably open a series of threads instead of a single one. |
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Nov 15 2007, 07:40 PM
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#334
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I was kind of hoping that someone would put forth their own vision of game theory and possibly spawn off some alternate set of house rules that went off in an entirely different direction. But I made it pretty clear that such a setup would be an entirely different set of house rules that went in an entirely different direction.
I genuinely wanted the people who want something different than what I'm offering to be happy. And I wanted them to get off my primary thread with their essentially impossible demands. I got exactly one of those, which will do for now. The underlying problem where in Hacking in a world without naked brain hacking is an attack where the defender chooses whether they will be subjected to it hasn't really been addressed on this thread. It's possible to address of course, some people have done initial concepting on some sort of carrot-based system where being Matrix active made you revolutionarily more effective in some way and thus that denying yourself access to the Matrix was at least almost as bad as being hacked. And that's fine. It's not the game I want to play, but I uderstand that some people like the idea. It's also not a finished idea since the dicepools that people have in Shadowrun are already set at a point where you don't get any particular bonuses from being connected to the Matrix - meaning that such an overhaul is actually much more invasive to the system as a whole (affecting such things as stealth and driving success tests) than my own. But unfortunately, people really would rather curse darkness than light candles. Hell, they'd rather curse candle makers who make candles of a color they don't like than go make candles of their own. -Frank |
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Nov 15 2007, 08:15 PM
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#335
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
That, or they like their candles just the way they are for the most part and see no reason to go build their own candle factory or invest in candlemaking tools to remake them in their own image. Especially when all you really need to do is move the candle around to make the mood lighting better. The current rules for the Matrix work just fine for the amount of Matrix stuff I use in my games. What few inconsistances or oddballness there is is easily dismissed by using a little reasoning and logic. It doesn't take an Einstein to figure out how to resolve defaulting or to say "no, quit being an idiot" if someone legitimiately tries to pull off a Momhammer due to a poor reading of the rules and embarrassing lack of understanding of Shadowrun technology. If anything needs a reworking, it's pretty much the foundation of the rules and a solid, consistant application thereof throughout all the myriad applications. There's no need to have seven different rules and exceptions for the same basic thing, and that's something that's still plaguing SR4 quite a bit. The Matrix rules just get all the attention, apparently. |
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Nov 15 2007, 08:26 PM
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#336
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 25-November 03 From: Harrisburg, PA Member No.: 5,848 |
Can that be compared to choosing to live in a magic dead zone (whatever they're called), or in space, so the defender doesn't have to suffer magical attacks? In a sense, they're both voluntarily choosing to inconvenience yourself for the sake of being safe from one form of attack. Albeit vastly different types of inconveniences. |
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Nov 15 2007, 08:38 PM
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#337
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
If there was any actual presented inconvenience to interacting with machines with buttons and screens and sending data around in the form of simple radio waves rather than massive and hackable data packets, then sure. Or if you started in a magical dead zone and then would have to pay ¥¥¥ in order to allow magic to work on your property. As is though, not having the Matrix working on your precious devices comes with no discernable penalties and actually saves you money. -Frank |
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Nov 15 2007, 09:07 PM
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#338
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
With all due respect, while you may have been hoping that someone might put forth their own vision of something, it certainly wasn't game theory—all you really do is show a two-move game and assign some weights (or at least weight inequalities) that need to be true for players (of the two-move game) to rationally choose one of the moves. There's substance in this thread, but none of it is nontrivial game theory. Which only bothers me a little (which can be seen by the fact that I didn't get on your case about it earlier), but you can't really claim that you wanted a "vision of game theory"—at the level of abstraction you provide there isn't much room to insert a nontrivial game. The most likely answer, which as it happens was what happened, is that people will offer different weightings (possibly with a discussion of why the new weighting is superior to the old one). (If you wanted to add another game, the obvious one would be a one-player game where the player, the GM, chooses amongst moves "Have in-game actors not use the Matrix", "Have in-game actors use the Matrix and make it make sense", and "Have in-game actors use the Matrix and don't pay attention to whether it makes sense".) ~J |
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Nov 15 2007, 09:07 PM
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#339
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
You're assuming that hackers should be attacking characters. I reject this concept in its entirety. They're supposed to be attacking systems and buildings and facilities. There is, in fact, no logical reason for hackers to directly attack characters via hacking. It is a redundant function. Everybody can directly attack characters. Guns. Magic. Swords. Magic Swords. There are so many ways to attack characters that there is little point in creating more. Making every archetype fulfill same functional role is just bad game design. Hackers and Technomancers can do something that no other archetypes can do. They can attack systems. They can attack building-wide security systems. They can attack the e-commerce systems that the entire world economy is based upon. Does the Stuffer Shack gain a dice pool advantage for using a SOTA wireless register instead of an old-fashion manual register? Of course not. But what they gain is significantly better. They gain the ability to actually accept money in exchange for goods. Does the building rigger gain any dice-pool advantages from rigger-modifying the entire building? Of course not. But he gains the ability to rig the entire building. |
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Nov 15 2007, 09:33 PM
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#340
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
This post is contingent on the fact that in the RAW Joe Average working on AR is immune to Black IC. BBB 125
Joe Average gets +2 dice for being online while doing DIY home renovations, tuning up his car, building a spice rack, landscaping, etc. Runners can also get this bonus for stuff like cybertechnology and hardware if they can get their sweaty little hands on some designs (by hacking or my personal favority Resonance Quest to the Realm of Machine Sprites). BBB 159
So Joe Average gets +1 die to drive to the corner store and pick up some milk. Not really an issue since that wouldn't call for a test but that extra +1 probably helps to cut down on the massive 10+ vehicle pile-ups that we see on the road today. BBB 208
Maybe this is what you mean by AR being an unfinished idea? Because the BBB doesn't map out every single instance where Joe Average gets a DP bonus? Hmmm...you are trying to file your taxes and you are using AR to show your last 5 years' filings, government guidelines, Accounting for Dummies, and your bank's Tax FAQ. I think you get +2 Mr. Average. I'd say that there are pretty hefty advantages to the Mooks using AR. If anything AR is the last vestige of Dystopia in this Dystopic future. No one cares how bad the world is getting now, they have Virtual Programs for everything. It's all rainbows, sunshine, and lollipops! Hurray! From hyzmarca:
Not to mention that they don't even need to have a clerk working the store anymore. RFID tag everything with a scanner that sends an alarm whenever something that isn't marked as sold leaves the store. Have 1 security guard working say 5 neighborhood stores and 1 stock boy for the same number of stores. Stock boy drives up in a van full of items and replenishes what the store is telling him is depleted. Heck, Street Survival Guide even said that (prior to Crash 2.0) most convenience stores were moving to all-vending machine formats. You save money that would otherwise have to be spent on people. |
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Nov 15 2007, 10:20 PM
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#341
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Japan's already there. They have vending machines everywhere, even on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere, selling everything from eggs, flowers, and giant bags of rice to shampoo, underwear, and (of course) lots of porn.
http://www.photomann.com/japan/machines/index.htm The vending machines can even tell if you're a minor just by looking at you: http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20071...113TDY03102.htm |
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Nov 15 2007, 10:28 PM
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#342
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
Hmm...and we're playing a setting based on the view of a Japanese world-wide Financial Hegemony existed. I wonder if the egg machines will do hard-boiled and pickled as well? |
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