 Nash Equilibria and Matrices, Your targets are not stupid. |
  |
 Nov 8 2007, 05:21 AM
Post
#51
|
|||||
|
Neophyte Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440  |
Why thank you but I did not need to know your given name. :D WMS |
||||
 |
 
|
||||
|
Nov 8 2007, 06:14 AM
Post
#52
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
In most of the games I've played in, shoot them with an alpha or hit them with a lightning ball. We've tended to end up with fully awakened teams, as magic (and associated counterspelling/astral projection) is the ONE thing you can't do with anything else. And it's trivial to get the basic computer skills needed to do hacking. The entire idea of their being a seperate "hacker" from "rigger" from anything else is an unfortunate D&Dism. I'd really prefer if being awakened had a much more serious impact on the characters ability to do other crap, but it doesn't. Hence everyone who is trying to make a balanced character makes a mage with or without synaptic booster, then adds the other skills as needed. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 8 2007, 06:25 AM
Post
#53
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 225 Joined: 13-July 07 Member No.: 12,235 |
For the most part, I agree. What hackers will do under the basic rules is either be a sammie or be a mage, since it takes something like ten build points to buy yourself a shiny new commlink with all the bells and whistles and programs. Needless to say, this is awful. Hackers are integral to cyberpunk - so make the rules reflect this. I feel I should clarify about what I meant by hackers and riggers. I don't think they're seperate classes, I'm fully aware that one can and often does do both, and also very aware that it's easy to splash either hacker or rigger skills in one of the other archetypes. It is my personal preference that hackers be able to do things just with computers, and not have to rely on drones to do their dirty work. It is very possible, and almost certainly better strategically, to control an army of drones, but I don't like it. That's just me, and I am fully sympathetic to anyone who doesn't agree, but as such I'm going to prefer the rules system that does allow hackers to do things without using robots to shoot you in the face. I mean, really, if you want to shoot people, skip the rigger --> drone thing and just be a sammie and do it yourself. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Nov 8 2007, 06:59 AM
Post
#54
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Well, what they were integral to was the cyberpunk of TRON and Mr "I write all my books on a mechanical typewriter". I have no particular interests in recreating that. Like Disco, it just doesn't get better with age. And besides that, Cyberpunk is dead. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 8 2007, 07:02 AM
Post
#55
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
See, I see it as Hacking is integral to the cyberpunk genre, and the rules reflect that just fine. I don't need a separate Computer Whiz class. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 8 2007, 07:19 AM
Post
#56
|
|||
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Sounds reasonable. Look at all those important people with cellphones today. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 8 2007, 07:23 AM
Post
#57
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 225 Joined: 13-July 07 Member No.: 12,235 |
Oh. Well, I guess I can't really argue with that. If you don't need a separate Computer Whiz class, far be it from me to tell you otherwise. However, what you need and what Shadowrun needs are different things, and hackers have been featured prominently as a contributing individual of the team in Shadowrun as far back as I can remember (which barely takes us back to SR3, so I'm hoping some old-timers will come back me up on this :D ). If you don't want to play a game with hackers, that's fine, but Shadowrun does have them. It's fine if you want to reject these rules on the grounds that you don't want to play Shadowrun, but it doesn't do the rest of us a lot of good as we look at the rules from a Shadowrun perspective. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Nov 8 2007, 07:36 AM
Post
#58
|
|||||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
except that what you end up with isn't hacking. letting your storebought, agent-laden commlink duke it out with your opponent's storebought, agent-laden commlink while the two of you shoot it with guns out isn't hacking, it's masturbation. it's extraneous, it's only there because you want to feel like you're playing a cyberpunk game. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Nov 8 2007, 07:39 AM
Post
#59
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
God do I feel bad for taking the first shot at brain hacking in the other thread. At least the argument, for the most part, is still civil except for a few angry posts. So perhaps this is a good time to try and sum up the two (or maybe more) sides. What's really silly is that half these arguments don't really have anything to do with brain hacking. What we're really discussing is the role of the hacker and how GMs deal with hackers. ----------- Argument 1: Hackers need more to do. This really isn't the way we want to say it. What we really mean is that hackers need more to do simultaneously with the rest of the crew and without stepping aside with the GM and slowing the game down. When a hacker is doing his thing, trying to take over turrets, hack comm links/cyberware, and grabbing paydata, bullets are flying. As quick as hackers are (3+ IP in hot sim), it still takes too long to complete their assigned task in comparison to how quickly even the most violent firefight lasts. Plus, while they're in hot sim, they need the rest of the team to protect them. It's simply not fair to either side. Counter Argument: Hackers can destroy your life. They can affect your credit, fuck with your money, screw up your cyberware, and even make petty pranks at your expense by taking out personal ads with your phone number asking for trannies who want to meet other trannies (the raunchier calls, the more likely the call back). They can hack cameras to hide your way. They can hack turrets and drones to fight along side you. They can find valuable paydata that will make the entire group money. REALITY: Even with all that to do, the problem of keeping the hacker with the rest of the group and not having the GM step outside to deal with stuff remains. This is the fundamental flaw. Sure, hacking on the fly and utilizing IPs to sync the game can help a little, but the problem is that it's hard for a GM to keep track of everything at once. This is as much a flaw with GM preparation and GM knowledge as it is with game mechanics. ----- Argument 2: Closed networks, sneaker nets, and air gaps are lame. It's not as though, given argument 1, hackers can succeed very quickly, so why make it even harder. Plus, with these issues, hackers essentially become the protected member of the team. What's the job? Get the paydata. That means breaking in, keeping the hacker alive, standing around while he hacks and saving his ass (or at least the data) on the way out. Plus, it's a cheap and easy solution to prevent the hacker from being able to do his thing. Counter Argument: Closed networks, sneaker nets and air gaps create a team dynamic. A team is supposed to have people who do different things. If your team doesn't want to do paydata runs or doesn't want to deal with network dynamics, don't take those kinds of jobs. Don't even bother with a hacker. It's not that hard to keep to courier runs, security runs, B&E runs, and wetwork, among others. Hackers are a liability by nature, and if you don't like it, don't take them on. REALITY: Closed networks, sneaker nets and air gaps are a reality. When the Internet was first being established in the 80s, the Bell worm that cause massive crashes utilized the infastructre to take the entire net down. What was the first reaction of networks? Pull off the Internet. Go back to being Intranets. Yes, it's costly and difficult to maintain, but if there's a threat, this is what people do. When you're used to working with the Matrix on, shutting it off is going to force you to adjust to everything on the fly and without the data you had with it on. There is also nothing cheap nor easy about closed networks, sneaker nets and air gaps. The time and effort it takes to upgrade hardware, software, and maintain physical security is almost as costly, if not more, as paying extra for better matrix security. Limiting a piece of data to a single location makes likelihood of irretrievable data loss that much higher. Not to mention how much money those workers are being offered every day to slip that piece of data out of that closed network. --------- Argument 3: Hackers just aren't hackers anymore. Most of the time, hackers can't truly be specialized. Unlike a mage, who may have no experience firing a gun, a hacker has to cut his skills down and round his character because he won't survive otherwise. When you actually do get a munchkin or min/max hacker, suddenly the rest of the team is supporting his ass. Counter Argument: If you want to play a class or archetype in the traditional sense, Shadowrun simply may not be the game for you. Min/max and munchkin characters shouldn't be played. They're there to test game mechanics. Besides, a character isn't supposed to be his/her stats. That's why they're characters and not baseball cards. In Shadowrun, it's not hard to balance a character. You just have to choose what's more important: kicking ass at one thing or having a really playable character. REALITY: As it's been pointed out, Shadowrun archetypes are there for a reason. Of course, classes aren't there for a reason as well. Truly, this is a case by case basis. If you want a min/maxed character, bully for you, but consider what your team wants. Shadowrun is group game and everyone's opinion matters. You may not want to share that key bit of your background, but checking in with the other players as to what sort of character they need can make a huge difference. Maybe your game is better off without a hacker or with an NPC hacker on the team to speed things up. That way, your team still gets the data, but no silly rolling. The GM just runs the show. ------------ Argument 4: The technology must be that advanced. Seeing how quickly technology is advancing right now, it's pretty easy to extrapolate that in 50 years, our understanding of the brain will be infinitely better. I don't think anyone can argue against that statement. If that's true, technology interfacing with brains is also a given. And if we're able to connect tech to brains, what's to stop people from doing it against your will? Counter Argument: Even at the rate technology is advancing, the likelihood of direct brain transmissions is low. If it were possible, some corp would already have brainwashed everyone and we'd be living in a corporately run dystopia with a few privileged CEOs being the only ones left thinking for themselves. REALITY: Both of those arguments are good ones, and both take things to an extreme. We're reaching a point in time where the growth of computing power is actually slowing down. It may not seem like it, but we've reached the Uncanny Valley for VR, and Moore's Law is reaching an unforeseen plateau. Plus, while our knowledge and computing power will continue to grow, there's no evidence that it'll make us able to directly and wirelessly connect to the brain. Currently, cybereyes are in their infancy, with only a few pinpoints of light visible when they're on. Cyberears for the deaf are known as Cochlear Implants and have been in trials and use since the late 90s. The fact is that we already can replace parts of the body rather easily and connecting to the brain is around the corner. Whether in 63 years, we;ll be able to hack a brain wirelessly... well it's not a given either way. ---------- Argument 5: (and the root of this thread) The Nash Equilibrium. Welcome to the manga Deathnote transposed to an ethereal form. The Nash Equilibrium is, in essence, the art of second guessing and an quickly progressing arms race. If you do A, your opponent will match and surpass you with B, which will cause you to develop C and so on. Which brings us to Frank's conclusion:
Counter Argument: First off, computers right now are that astoundingly awesome. If it weren't for computers, we'd all be sitting at home with our thumbs up our asses thinking that we'd each have to design new Matrix rules since no one out there understands how bad they are. The Internet fosters a worldwide community, one which will only become more essential as time goes on. That alone is enough. Secondly, how could not having a computer make you more vulnerable to hacking? If technology could wirelessly connect to the brain, there's no reason why a comm link would be able to stop another comm link from hacking your brain. You're essentially forcing us to believe there's a bottleneck through which only one piece of wireless technology can connect to your brain at a time. Even cordless phones sometimes pick up conversations from other cordless phones. And given the number of brains, the number comm links, and the number of frequencies, there's no way there won't be crossed signals constantly fucking up your head. It's just silly. REALITY: The Nash Equilibrium as a reason why things escalate is great, but as a support of brain hacking, it doesn't work that way. In fact, the Nash Equilibrium specifically supports the idea of getting rid of hackers altogether (see counter argument 2). Obviously, this isn't the solution any of us want, so why bring it up at all? In addition, the reverse corollary applies: if not having a computer means you don't have any data, WHAT THE FUCK DOES A HACKER WANT YOU FOR? Seriously. I don't see a reason for a hacker to be on a run where no hacking is going to happen. If the GM is silly enough to encourage a hacker when hacking isn't necessary or useful, he's not a very good GM. -------- Conclusion: Since there doesn't really seem to be a way to reconcile the two camps, perhaps it's time for us to remember that these are optional, homebrew rules. Even if you don't agree with brain hacking or think the entire construct is suspect, it's not our place to shoot down a house rule that we don't even play with. At the same time, those in favor of brain hacking and who believe it's a logical jump shouldn't feel hard pressed to prove it. It's a fascinating argument, but in the end, it's a house rule for a game. Hell, even mathematics is based on fallible axioms that would cause the entirety of our belief system to crumble should even 1 be shown false. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 8 2007, 07:51 AM
Post
#60
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
So, according to you, I can't play (or am not playing) Shadowrun if I don't use these rules for a D&D-type uber-Hacker class and brain-hacking. Ok ... :please: |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 8 2007, 08:04 AM
Post
#61
|
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The difference in "world" between what has been presented in Shadowrun fluff and what I'm talking about is that "jacking out" does not stop a hacker who has physical line of sight to you. You can't save your drones by "jacking them out", you can't save yourself by "jacking them out".
Jacking out to give yourself complete immunity to Matrix threats has always been problematic. If Closed Circuit Cameras are unhackable, then Hackers can't keep you off the cameras. And if they can't do that, what's the point? If simply running everything in tortoise mode makes you immune to the consequences of IC, it doesn't really matter what penalties it is associated with, because you'll do everything you are allowed to do... eventually. Hence: no jacking out. All the stuff about BTL that affects your brain from outside your body - that's actually in the setting and has been for some time (BTL decks don't require datajacks, and the Psychotrope novel happened). Between that and no jacking out (which is really implied by the BTL deck anyway) the "brainhacking" is a logical requirement. --- If you can successfully extrapolate a world where the Nash Equilibrium is people running around doing exciting and interesting things in and out of combat situations with their Hacking while simultaneously allowing people to jack out their brains and their equipment - more power to you. But honestly, I can't. And I'm not interested in trying. What I've seen so far is a bunch of people either making the argument that:
People are bad at risk assessment and often Nash Equilibrium is not reached. I find any argument predicated on the assmption that Lofwyr is bad at threat assessment to be inherently unpalatable. Your mileage may vary. -Frank |
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2007, 08:14 AM
Post
#62
|
|
|
Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
First things first: Wikipedia on Game Theory (link name changed)
This is the most simple form. Joe Average gets to be player A. The bad hacker gets to be player B. Now both get to choose strategys. Player A has the option of not participating in "The Matrix" or investing different amounts of time, changes of behaviour and money into security. Depending on security concerns, the positive value of matrix use is subject to change. Plus it has to compensate security costs. Player B does not really exist as a single entity. Player B is a model of society. There are different chances for virtual attacks and each has a different amount of damage, all of those AS PERCIEVED by Player A. Real chances are inconsequential for makeing a game decision. If you want to model an easy game for starters, you are looking at someone that knows he is RIGHT NOW under attack. What does 15 minutes without the matrix cost? In that situation, turning the matrix off might be an option for most wageslaves. Security is already less likely to turn off tactical communications and sensor feeds, as "I shoot anything that moves" works against hackers, too. But denial of net access is certainly a "game win" for the hacker. Next game, we don´t know about the attack. Stealth has worked so far. It is every other day-day. Player A partakes in society, he does have net access. His investments allow him to FEEL save regarding certain types of attack. Identity theft is possible (if done by Pros), but AR spamming and script kiddie attacks are effectivly blocked or at least noticed early enough to take active measures. In fact, the few hundred bucks for a fairly good comlink (giving quite an amount of status within the peer group) would have the same chances of keeping out attackers as mediore corp hosts. As Joe does not believe he will be attacked by pros, he will believe secure from any potential attack, assigning low percentages or low damage figures (depending on the kind of attack), making "matrix use" strategies very dominant over "no net access" strategies. If you want to punish anyone without net access in the simple scenario, I propose going the other route and actually making the AR more useful. AR can give boni to almost any action. Hand out a "tactical orientation program" that benefits dodge tests. Hand out a "threat analysis" program that collects the same kind of information a "observe in detail" action might. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2007, 08:24 AM
Post
#63
|
|||||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it's not nearly as difficult as you make it out to be. you only need to satisfy two conditions: one, in order to do anything really cool in the Matrix, you have to have your brain connected to it; two, once your brain is connected to the Matrix, it has to be difficult to jack out at the first sign of trouble.
outside your body != a significant distance from your body. just because you can transmit signals to your brain by attaching a transmitter to the skin of your head doesn't mean you can transmit signals to your brain by pointing a raygun at it. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Nov 8 2007, 08:32 AM
Post
#64
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
You're missing Three: Whats the cool thing to do in the matrix again? You have to make something awesome.
What? (Intrestingly, brainhacking actually does that) |
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2007, 08:39 AM
Post
#65
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 225 Joined: 13-July 07 Member No.: 12,235 |
Of course not, that would be absurd to say. But when all hackers, as you described, have been completely subsumed into other classes, the game you're describing to me does not resemble any SR fluff I have read. Like I said, I happen to think hackers should have a pretty large array of stuff they can do. That's fine, just like it's fine to try to adhere more closely to the rules in the BBB and have hackers more limited in scope. But one thing has always been the case in Shadowrun, and that would be that hackers are. There is such a thing as a hacker. And you don't have to also be good at shooting people, and you don't have to also be able to fly. In the world you describe, hackers cease to exist; this world does not resemble any Shadowrun I'm familiar with, which is why I say you're now playing a different game from the rest of us. Don't get me wrong, that's not a problem, it just doesn't help the discussion. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Nov 8 2007, 08:42 AM
Post
#66
|
|||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 246 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,198 |
Why not? Do you understand the concept of Trode nets? Trode nets send a signal to the brain. Check Trode nets send a signal that contains Brain Data. Check If a part of the brain is receiving AND SENDING. Meaning some part of your brain is wireless and has a signal beacon or whatever, then thats all that matters. I dare you to point your remote at the wall. It wont do shit. Now point your remote at the TV IR receiver. Things send and receive! Imagine that. ...So why, suddenly, does it have to be pin point? |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Nov 8 2007, 08:42 AM
Post
#67
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
if you want to consider that as being separate from the first condition, go ahead and make it a third one. regardless, while brainhacking can be interesting, it's not necessary in order for hacking to be awesome. hacking, by itself, has always been awesome in concept. all that's lacking is the proper execution in terms of setting and game mechanics.
yes, i understand trode nets. i understand that since their inception, they have been something that you attach to your head. this has been true, in the game, for the past forty years. i see no reason why it might have changed. the fact that you can send and receive to a transceiver attached to your skin does not mean that you can send and receive to a transceiver across the room. your brain can transmit signals to and from your foot quite easily. it cannot, however, transmit signals to or from someone else's foot, nor to/from your own foot if your foot has been sliced off. the 'technology' that allows your brain and feet to communicate requires a physical connection comprised of certain arrangements of biological matter. it's quite easily possible that trode nets also require a physical connection to the skin of your head in order to transmit data to and from your brain. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 8 2007, 08:49 AM
Post
#68
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 246 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,198 |
Like bandwidth, I/O, and space restrictions? Hmmm... Or maybe Hosts, those are still around, right? UV Hosts at least? Damn. OH! I know. Decks, THOSE surely must still be the same...Oh. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 8 2007, 08:52 AM
Post
#69
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
see my edited post, above, for more in-depth explanation of my point. as for bandwidth, I/O, space restrictions, hosts, UV, and decks, you'll notice they are all tied together by one common thread: the book says they've changed. nothing in the book says that trode nets have changed, except that you can now apply them in the form of nanopaste.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2007, 08:55 AM
Post
#70
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
My point exactly. If you want to make a set of game mechanics which support a world in which topographic distinctions create topologic distinctions, go for it. I won't stop you. I encourage you to make such rules. All I'm saying is that I personally will not make or support them. A world in which you can "jack out" of the Matrix has the potential to be really interesting. But it's not my vision of the Shadowrun world and I didn't write my optional rules with that in mind. Quite the opposite. Yes, if you want to make a world in which you entice people into getting their brain hacked by giving them access to succulent Matrix services which make their ordinary actions better - go ahead. That's the carrot model, and I have no problem with people playing that way. But I used the stick model. The model in which people attach themselves to rating 1 firewalls because this is safer than not attaching themselves to anything. The model in which people learn about the Matrix like they learn about Magic or Guns - something that ignorance is no defense against. And yeah, you could write some other rules based on some other preconceptions. But I didn't. -Frank |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 8 2007, 08:58 AM
Post
#71
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 246 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,198 |
So first it's not possible, then it's possible from trode nets on your head, then it's possible with contact to the skin... You're telling me it's more plausible that I can apply a paste to my skin, have my skin connect to my brain, have that as an effective enough connection to /sink into a virtual reality/...But you're opposed to blasting millions and millions of Brain Data from a transmitter 'ray gun'? You dont exactly need to get info back, just keep shoving the Black Hammer, Psychotropic IC, or what have you till they stop twitching. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 8 2007, 09:06 AM
Post
#72
|
|||||||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
if that's really all you're saying, you should try couching what you say in similar terms in the future. what you've said in the past is that the lack of brainhacking in SR makes no sense, and can't ever make sense.
i don't feel like digging through the book to find out what it actually says, but when i originally suggested nanopaste trodes, i intended them to be applied to the skin on your head. i imagined them as face paint, basically. i don't believe that the book says you can slap nanopaste on your butt and have it work, but maybe it does.
regardless, yes, this is exactly what i am opposed to. because with that technology, the power to wipe out the entire human race is suddenly in the hands of the individual. all one lone hacker has to do in order to wipe out all vertebrate life on the planet is hack a few satellites and have them blanket the earth in black IC. again, maybe i'm just nuts, but that seems like a pretty silly thing to include in a game. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Nov 8 2007, 09:18 AM
Post
#73
|
|||||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Not that it can't ever make sense, but that the differences between what I'm talking about and the presented material are far less than something which would make sense without brain hacking.
If Black IC and Psychotropic IC exists, then people can hack your brain to death or insanity. If the Matrix is wireless, then people can do this to you wirelessly. You could make a Matrix system where brains never entered into the equation, where people did VR exclusively with force feedback gloves and visors. That would work and it would bypass people's ability to connect your brain to computers against your will (unless you got captured and put into a weird Cardasian mind prison). You could make a Matrix system where the brain was inherently immune to harmful code. You could make a Matrix system in which high density signal could not be broadcast through the air and all simsense feeds required a continuous fiberoptic cable running from point A to point B. --- Any of those assumptions would potentially eliminate across the room brain hacking. But unless you're willing to do something that drasic, brain hacking is part of the world. -Frank |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Nov 8 2007, 09:21 AM
Post
#74
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 246 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,198 |
Dragons and generals seem to do fine, we also dont see bloodzillas running around. At this point, you're (And hell, maybe I am too, who knows) just pulling stuff out yer ass, so I'll drop this convo. Nice talking to you guys. Sidenote to Eid and all those who's hackers apparently have more fun than 90% of the rest of the hackers out there, share your secret or ignore the rules suggestions. Were tired of playing Guitar Hero :(. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 8 2007, 09:29 AM
Post
#75
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'm not pulling anything out of my ass at all. it's a logical extension of the brainhacking technology as it's been presented. dragons and generals do not have even the tiniest fraction of the power that a lone hacker would have, given the type of brainhacking technology that's being discussed. and as far as bloodzilla goes, that's a loophole that may or may not be fixed. there's no way to close the destroy-all-life loophole that comes part and parcel with brainhacking as it's being discussed.
you keep saying that, and it keeps not being true. just because you don't need an invasive piece of technology stuck in your brain in order to experience ASIST does not mean that someone can inflict ASIST on your naked brain from across the room; people have pointed out perfectly viable technological assumptions that would make across-the-room brainhacking impossible. and then there's the issue i'm discussing with Seven-7--the fact that anybody with some technological savvy and a commlink could wipe out most of the planet all by themselves with a few hours' work. as far as i can tell, you haven't looked at the ramifications of across-the-room brainhacking for any group except first-world humans. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 3rd December 2024 - 10:11 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.