How obvious is control thought?, I did what? Options

[Sunday_Gamer]

Control thought, does the target know they are being controlled? If they are aware, when? During? After?

The description says the target can expend a complex action after X time to try and break out, bonus question, where do you get this complex action when someone else is using your actions for you?

How would you know to try and break out if you didn't know you were being mind controlled? Other side of the argument, why would anyone use control thoughts instead of control action which has less drain if your target always knew it had been controlled?

Thoughts?

[Ol' Scratch]

Most of that is personal opinion and conjecture. I doubt if you'll find any unanimous decisions on the subject. Go with the answers you like best, and you'll be right.

As to why you'd use Control Thoughts over Control Actions? Because it does a lot more. You don't only have control of their bodies, but their skills, talents, abilities, and memories (to a certain degree anyway), too. That's a pretty big boost in power.

[Wounded Ronin]

Well, I don't know squat about SR4, but as a GM I always found Control Thoughts to be kind of overpowered. If I had to go through life all again, I'd consider making Control Thoughts to have the same restrictions as Charm Person from D&D, namely that you can't get people to do utterly out of character things, or make someone do something clearly not in their best interest like shooting themselves.

[kzt]

We just banned all the mind control spells after one time too many of "Please send me all you money, then shoot yourselves in the head". I think that was the first time someone did it.

[Simon May]

I'm with Wounded Ronin on this. If you want a very specific thing done via Control Thoughts, you'd better make sure the character is given a good reason to do it. The more at odds with the personality, the more likely it is to fail.

[Glyph]

[HappyDaze]

[Kool Kat]

[noonesshowmonkey]

Control Thoughts is massive IMBA. My personal opinions are as follows.

Control Thoughts produces a net hits total that must be met or exceeded by the target. Whenever a target is asked to do something out of character, their now semi-concious brain gets a shot to shake the effects of the spell, calling out from under the covers of the spell "no! thats a bad idea! noooooo!". This would be a Willpower check with bonus or penalties based on how amenable the action is to the character and their goals.

If you ask a Mind Controlled target to do something mundane, something they would do normally or that would cause no harm to them, there is no check made - ie the spell functions as written as long as the player keeps things reasonable. Once you start venturing off into things that no one would do without second thought, it gets a bit trickier. I tend to play it by ear and use the tables for intimidation bonuses / penalties as a guideline for dice bonus and penalties. If the action would cause bodily harm, is ruinous to the character etc. a Willpower check is made immediately and sometimes with a bonus. As soon as the MC'd target hits the threshold of the spell, it breaks and they come out of it like a sudden reverie, a half lucid dream of which they have semi-tangible memories.

This has gone a long ways to keep players from saying things like "empty your bank accounts and shoot yourself in the head". I have had little, if any, resistance to these changes. They make sense.

Thats how I hamstring the busted spell...

- der menkey

"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway

[Blade]

Same for me, and it's kinda like the mind control spells you see in movies, where the mind-control hero (or his/her friend) refuses to kill his/her friend because "their friendship is stronger than the spell".

If you feel like your players will refuse this, just have an opposing mage mind control a player, and he'll be the one to beg for this house rule.

[Stahlseele]

[Buster]

I always thought that Control Thoughts leaves a blank spot in the victim's memory, just like movie-style hypnosis. He doesn't remember anything that happened while he was being controlled.

However, Influence clearly states that the victim thinks the commands were his own idea, therefore he remembers everything that's going on. The only downside is that Influence is only one command per casting, but one command is all I ever need. And since Influence is a lower drain, I use nothing but Influence and never even learn Control Thoughts.

[Eryk the Red]

No, Stahlseele, because the person would likely not transfer all his money to you normally, or open the bank vault for you, or open his admin account to you. But if you were clever about it, nudged him to do these things in a way that seemed natural, then it'd be ok. The more you force the person to break from character, the more likely they are to resist the effect. This house-rule works for me.

[Stahlseele]

so if i were just to leave out any part concerning ME in the order he would do it just as usually without resistance and i could STILL profit from his actions?

[noonesshowmonkey]

Eryk is on track. Methinks you are reading to literally, Stahleele. The spell is written loosely and so my interpretation is just that - stuff I made up to adapt the spell to what I think works. Its not a hard and fast rule by any means. It does, however, work rather well in my experience. Someone who gets a ton of hits on their MC check can still make someone do something completely retarded... They just don't get to make someone do something retarded over and over and over and over.

The trick is to finagle your way into having the target do things that they wouldn't want to do normally, but they wouldn't REFUSE to do. If you can influence them in other ways to think that giving you all of their money is in their best interest, or even something that isn't a bad idea, theres a good chance that Control Thoughts would work for that kind of thing.

Control Thoughts on a samurai to have him katana (as in katana - v. to slash with a katana) his mage buddy results in immediate checks to break free from Mind Control. There is no way that someone would just turn around and split the skull of a compatriot during combat against a common foe. Its totally out of character. Given enough successes on your cast, however, theres a good chance that the MC'd target will not break free and will indeed katana the skull of his buddy... Chances are good, however, that he won't be doing any more services of that ilk again until you cast MC again. (PS - I give fatass bonuses to targets who get repeat mind control spells cast at them.)

Opening a bank door or whatever under duress is not something a character would do. They don't just forget who they are and what they were doing... You are still asking them to do something that is the opposite of what they would do themselves. Their mind gets a chance to struggle free from the bonds of the spell.

- der menkey

"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway

[FrankTrollman]

I honestly don't see the big deal. The drain is attrocious and it only lasts a few combat rounds. You can't get someone to escort you into the control room, introduce you to the Marquis or give you a blowjob. That simply takes too much time even for a Willpower 1 wageslave.

Yes, you can get someone to wire you all their money and then shoot themelves in the head. Instead you could just manabolt the guy to death for less drain and then pick up their credstick and wire yourself all their money.

You don't think Zurich Orbital has potential fraud flags go up when someone transfers all their money within 9 seconds of being dead? In Shadowrun you can potentially, and easily claim hundreds of thousands or millions of nuyen overnight. You can do that today as well. The problem is that doing that sort of thing has a tendency to get noticed by the Treasury Department and the Corporate Court has a goon squad that has a mandate of enforcement almost everywhere (except Heinan and Madagascar).

-Frank

[Ol' Scratch]

People like to downplay how powerful the spell is because it is powerful. You're controlling the person's thoughts. Everything they do under it's influence is something they think they thought of themselves. It's basically a more powerful version of Influence afterall.

If you tell them to do something absurd and out of character, sure, they might catch on that something wonky is going on but unless they've had experience in such magics they're not going to instantly know someone is making them do these things. Perhaps on reflection later, especially if investigated, but not during the course of the spell.

[Eryk the Red]

[noonesshowmonkey]

[Critias]

It seems like a lot of the utility of such spells depends on timing as much as anything else -- why not wait and cast the spell until right after the executive has logged onto his computer for the day, and convince him he really, really, needs to go pee right now in the executive washroom around the corner? Then you've got your computer access. Or wait until the bank vault has been opened, and hit the guy with a distressing "ohmigosh, did I leave the front door unlocked? Go check, hurry, hurry."

While leaving that account logged in or that vault momentarily open to go check the door might still represent a break in their routine, I imagine it would (if nothing else) represent a much lesser break in routine than telling someone to simply open a bank vault door or to sodomize themselves with their Ares Alpha.

[noonesshowmonkey]

[kzt]

[Simon May]

The computer system obviously has failsafes that notify the 4 dozen people when a strange transaction happens. If you've ever gone into a bank to close your account or take out all your money you'd know the bank manager is immediately notified and tries to talk you out of it.

And anonymous doesn't mean you don't have contact. The bank merely doesn't let any of their records out and allows you to use passwords and account numbers instead of names to tie to accounts. You may well have to deal with a manager each time you access that money in large amounts. He just won't remember who you are.

[Ol' Scratch]

I've never had an encounter where the spell was a problem. Anything you could do with it, you could accomplish through other means. It's just a very versatile spell. Mind Probe, Alter Memory, Physical Mask, and Control Actions can all be used to do pretty much the same things. The pay off is that Control Thoughts can duplicate aspects of each of those spells, but at the cost of not being able to do everything else they can do (excluding Control Actions).

So... yeah. Dunno why it gets so much grief.

[Cain]