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 Spell Force/2 [> or =] Object Resistance, Does this really apply to all spells? |
 Nov 25 2003, 06:34 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 291 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 806  |
Im a little confused about the wording in this issue; The book implies that all spells aimed/targeted at inanimate material obeys under this rule, but it seems a bit strange to apply it to for example Elem. Manips.
Is this something I just have to get over or is the F/2 vs. OR-rule aimed towards combat spells specifically? |
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Nov 25 2003, 07:46 PM
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#2
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
No books handy, but if I remember right, elemental manipulation spells are handled just like any other ranged attack, ie TN of 4.
But combat spells, like wreck, attack the OR. Which, now that I think of it, sucks. |
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Nov 25 2003, 09:37 PM
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#3
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
The GMs in my group believe the OR-limitation for affecting physical objects does not apply to Elemental Manipulation spells.
The book goes into the most detail for Elemental Manipulation spells affecting objects for the situation where the object is a vehicle. This is in SR3 on p. 150, top-right corner. There is no discussion of OR for this case, although the paragraphs describe Spell Force limits that are similar to the Bullet Power limits for affecting vehicles and Hardened Armor. |
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Nov 25 2003, 10:03 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 22-October 03 Member No.: 5,757 |
I think he ment (I could be wrong) that Can a force 1 combat spell affect a wall or door with an object resistance of 10.
I have no clue. I'm going back to sleep, it's thanksgiving soon. Yum, turkey. |
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Nov 25 2003, 10:29 PM
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#5
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
In that case: Yes, as long as you roll a 10 with your 1 die: |
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Nov 25 2003, 11:09 PM
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#6
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
OK, I read some.
No. Or something Mostly, vehicles are only barriers and indestructable if your hiding behind them. If you are in a vehicle, it can be destroyed with one success against a target number of 12 (for a Ford Americar), but if you're hiding behind it, a force 6 spell cannot damage it. Or something. |
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Nov 25 2003, 11:52 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 291 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 806 |
This seemed to be the most reasonable conclusion; Since EleManips already suffers from the standard rules for shooting at vehicles, they don't need the "OR force treshold" IMO, though I can't find this stated explicitly. What about other Manips then, or Detection spells? Im tempted to say, in my narrow little world, that the "force treshold" applies to Combat spells only, since I can't come up with a reason for this limitation to be applied on the other "spell classes". |
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Nov 26 2003, 01:34 AM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 58 Joined: 4-September 03 Member No.: 5,581 |
Not necessarily. If you fire off a deadly Wreck spell, you'll only need one success against the OR to nail it. Vehicles don't roll body unless it's a manipulation. This was all discussed in a previous topic, but I can't remember for the life of me which one it was. |
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Nov 26 2003, 02:34 AM
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#9
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
You've got the divide-by-two on the wrong side of the equation. The rule is (F) >= (OR/2). Instead of needing a Force 16 to affect something with OR of 8, you only need Force 4. SR3 p. 182. Vehicles and Barriers, of course, have harder requirements.
There are Detection, Illusion, and Manipulation spells designed for use on objects. These all have a TN of OR. The wording of the rules would require these spells to meet the OR/2 minimum Force, and I see nothing wrong with a GM following the rules and requiring Force 5 to use one of the spells on a Computer (OR 10), or Force 4 to affect a Trid Unit (OR 8 ). I allow Levitate to work on Vehicles and Computes, in my campaign, without making the TN equal to the OR. The high TN requirements due to vehicle weight is already tough, and allowing a low TN to levitate the small weight of a computer chip or pocket secretary seems OK to me. Insisting on a minimum Force of 4 to Levitate a vehicle (one-half the OR of 8 ), or a minimum Force of 5 to Levitate a Computer Chip also seems fine. Does this help, Dogsoup? Here's a link to the previous thread on Wreck (Object). |
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Nov 26 2003, 07:00 AM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
Errrr, I read the page, and all the pages around it, and I find nothing like that. But, on page 125, it says "Against combat spells, barriers have twice their normal rating". Which means, to be able to do any damage at all to a barrier rating 8, you've got to have a force 8 spell. And that's only going to do exactly one point. But again, if it were a Ford Americar, you'd need one success against a TN of 10 to destroy it. So, it will take you a week or two to bust through a wooden door, or about 2 seconds to destroy a large car. |
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Nov 26 2003, 08:50 AM
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#11
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
No, that quote (barriers having twice their normal rating) is the because a spell can do damage (reducing the barrier rating) from barrier/2 according to the chart on that page. So, a Force 5 can hurt a BR of 5.
This is NOTHING like the Force vs OR though (Force vs BR is not Force vs OR). OR for a platisteel door is 5, so you need a Force 3 to get through that OR. However, it is made of plastisteel, so has a BR of 6 (according to SotA, pg 96). So, your Combat spell has to be Force 6 or higher (you take the highest Force needed between the 2 checks). If on the other hand, it was a normal wooden office door with a BR of 2, and an OR of 5, a Force 3 would go right through it since the OR has the higher Force requirement. The real question to ask is what the damage levels do. I've yet to determine if we're suppose to reduce the barrier rating by 1 per casting (meaning you might as well cast it at Light damage) or if a Deadly damage spell will destroy the door, and if so, what part the chart on page 124 plays. Sphynx |
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Nov 26 2003, 09:51 AM
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#12
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
I'm not sure whether you're saying you can't find the tougher requirements for Vehicles or Barriers, or the Force having to be at least half of the OR. For the Force having to be at least half the OR:
In addition, vehicles and barriers have additional force requirements that also must be met: Vehicle (same paragraph): Spell Force >= (OR + Body + Armor/2)/2 Barrier (p. 124-125): just to affect it at all, Combat Spell Force >= Barrier Rating Barrier: to affect it, Elem. Manipulation Spell Force >= (Barrier Rating/2) For inanimate things that have a Condition Monitor, such as Cyberdecks and Vehicles, Combat Spells can give them Deadly Damage which means that they are no longer functional. When attempting to make them stop functioning, the damage level chosen by the caster does make a difference. As I read the Barrier rules, there is no condition monitor being tracked, and the damage level of the attack seems to make no difference in how quickly the barrier is breached, only the Force of the attack. Successful attacks against a barrier can lower the barrier rating, and possibly open up a hole in it. If a Ford Americar has crashed into a doorway and is a barrier to you getting through the doorway, you are not trying to give it Deadly Damage (it may already have Deady Damage from the crash). Instead you are trying to blow your way through it as a barrier. The GM would need to decide what Barrier Rating applies to a Ford Americar stuck in a doorway. Making the car non-functional might be a lot easier than blowing a 1 meter wide passageway through it. I didn't realize from your first post that you were interested in barriers. You may want to see also the thread on Wreck Object |
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Nov 26 2003, 01:01 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 291 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 806 |
Doh! I knew that a couple of days ago... Brain must've turned 180 degrees in the cranial bowl while I was sleeping. Thanks!
Hmmm, I rationalized this away yesterday, but it was late... Analyze Device should prolly be harder the more complex the device is. My conundrum was when to not apply, such as with Levitate or other Manips (that deasn't have a TN-description that clearly states OR). If I understand this right: Whenever a spell states it's TN as being a variable, derived from the target (an attribute in most cases), this variable is substituted by OR and therefore also suffers from the [F>=OR/2]-limitation. What about spells which affect objects, but have a TN depending on something wholly different, such as Detect Object, or Clairvoyance? |
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Nov 26 2003, 05:14 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
Well detection spells have set target numbers, so its down to the individual spell description. If the spell description says the TN is OR, then yes, you'll need force=>OR/2 for it to work in the first place.
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Nov 26 2003, 06:49 PM
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#15
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
I try to go as simple as make sense to me. If the rules already describe a variable TN based on the situation (and not the object) I'll just play it that way.
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