How long do your combats last? Options

[bogomips]

So I recently GMed my first fight scene in SR4 based off the one found in the quick start rules handout. Concerned that the fight would be over too quickly I added some extra baddies into the mix (for a total of 5 vs the 3 PCs).

Can't say it did a lot of good, I think in total the fight lasted about a total 5 seconds game time (much longer real time). Now admittedly, this is probably partially due to the fact that two of my PCs are essentially gun slinger adepts, but even so that battle wasn't completely one sided, I was even somewhat concerned over the survival of one of the PCs (grenades can be nasty).

So the questions I pose to you are:

A) How long do your fight sequences usually last (game time)?

B) What are your tricks for drawing out the combat, without making it too lethal for the players?

[klinktastic]

Typically, our combats last about 2, maybe 3, combat turns. Combat usually takes a while to play out.

[kzt]

[Cain]

A) Two, maybe three Combat turns at the longest.

B) Don't have everyone enter at once. In the last Missions game I played, things lasted much longer, as the 37 ghouls didn't charge in all at once. They were spread out, too, minimizing the effects of full-auto, grenades, and AoE spells.

[Caine Hazen]

A) my shortest has been 1st initiative called (Mage + Stunball + Go-Gangers with no bike skills [I'm looking at you Missions for this error]= lots of failed crash tests) the longest was about 5 rounds.

B) I got to extend the combat for 5 rounds due to using counterspelling, good encryption on the rigged copter (plus having the rigger actively oppose the hackers), and positioning in a chase scene. It definitely made things messy.

And remember dice pool modifiers (and smoke grenades), its funny how much longer a combat goes when characters are down 4-6 pool.

[DWC]

Last combat I ran went well over forty five seconds, and saw the fastest PC fired two and a half magazines of assault rifle ammo.

Then again, the PCs were trading assault rifle fire at long range with a Cascade Ork militia patrol composed of an adept, a shaman, and 6 (unenhanced) orks with assault rifles. Between range, cover, darkness, and weather, hits were rare, and most of those were glancing shots that were soaked down to nothing.

The mage was unable to dominate the combat because the attacked opened with a spirit annihilating his sustained reflexes spell's focus in astral combat, and following up by doing awful, awful things to said mage when he tried to project to find out where his spell had gone. Meanwhile, the shaman from the patrol hung back from the orks' firing line, threw all his dice to spell defense, and spent his actions staring through a pair of binoculars, watching where the PCs moved. Since he never threw any damage at the runners, they never found his location, and couldn't put him down.

When the combat concluded, there were two seriously wounded PCs and 3 seriously wounded militia. The patrol blanketed their own position with smoke grenades, and (aided by the spirit's Concealment power), withdrew deeper into the woods. Rather than blunder into an ambush in unfamiliar territory, the already chewed up PCs took their tactical victory and went on with their mission.

Combats tend to be ridiculously quick when they take place at extremely short ranges, in ideal conditions for one side, such as a group of pistol-weilding fiends mowing down gangers in a convenience store. When the PCs are out of their comfort zone, and the opposition is cautious because they know they're technically overmatched, combats tend to take a little longer.

[Fortune]

[Cain]

If he was acting as a Commando, there's only limited things you can do with the published scenarios. There's still things that can be done, however. He could always give them a wiz-kid mage to provide counterspelling, for example.

[Fortune]

You mean he can't just say (silently to himself) "these go-gangers obviously have the Pilot Ground Vehicle skill with a Bike specialization. It is so obvious in fact, that the designers didn't even feel the need to list it" and then go on and just act as if PGV 3 {Bike +2} was written on the sheet the whole time? Why the hell not? No-brainers like this are inevitable in a multi-author-multi-editor environment, and just need to be fixed on the fly.

[bogomips]

It is of interest to me that there has yet to be a combat mentioned here that has lasted even a minute, although in fairness that's typical of most RPGs I've played.

The one problem I have with such short fight scenes is that it makes it difficult to create a scenario where the PCs have to hold out until reinforcements arrive or have to flee before enemy reinforcements arrive. There is just not a lot of time for stuff to happen outside of the immediate combat. They also tend to be a little less dramatic then a fight scene you might see in your typical action movie.

[kzt]

It's a classic weakness of RPGs. Gunfights that in reality take minutes end in seconds. People hit way too often and suppression isn't modeled.

[Sunday_Gamer]

I've been in some loooooong fights but they usually involve a stalemate/siege type of situation but ya... 30-40 combat turns?

Shortest? 1 action of course, same as everyone else.

:D

[Cain]

[Simon May]

The longest combat I've had lasted 24 combat rounds (1:12). It was one on one, hand to hand, no weapons, no armor. It probably would've gone on longer, except the PC planted his foot anchor in the guy's forehead on a lucky kick.

Any time guns are involved, the combat's lasted at most 10 rounds, and that was thanks to good cover and myriad enemies.

[Critias]

[Simon May]

There was lots of missing involved, and both had dermal plating.

I warned the PC to take unarmed, but he wanted to be "simply a heavy weapons specialist."

[DTFarstar]

Typically 5 or so combat turns. Longest ever was probably about 20 something. Involved us dropping suppressing fire on a building, rappelling down to the roof, fighting down two flights of stairs and then chasing them through a drug filled building while their mage lightning balled himself to death.

Chris

[Stahlseele]

Does it count as one fight, if you're on a tactical retreat for half the run?
Our Job was to break into a very secluded high security corp Think-Tank . . and to free someone(though at that time more of a something) from the insides . . so we go in, we find the target area . . and we find what we were hired to free . . a salvaged aztech cyberzombie that had undergone several modifications since our last encounter . . where we, coincidentally, were responsible for him being in the state of being salvagable . . so we had to fight him while alarms where blaring and we had to fight the corp security guards coming to stop us . . going in took about 15 minutes in-game-time . . and we were wondering why it was so easy . . going OUT . . took us almost one hour in-game-time . . i don't quite remember the number of turns, but heck, that was the first time two things happened . . my character needed to reload a weapon and he ran out of ammo for one of his weapons . . tactical retreats using cover and suppressive fire tend to take longer than rushing in and killing things . . fights without area effect weapons tend to take longer too . . the usual bar brawl takes us about 30 minutes in game time . . a shoot-out without grenades and area spells takes us about 15 minutes . .

[Ryu]

Long fights tend to have something close to 10 combat turns. Those are rarely consecutive, as there is often noone left who has a direct line of fire to the opposition. Or runners for that part.

If you walk away from open exchanges of fire, adding crates (in warehouses), furniture, enemies hiding in doorframes, retreating a room etc., information gathering becomes an important part of combat. And that takes time. The increased use of reaction tests reduces the importance of maximum IP per turn, too.

[Blade]

It's hard to say for me. Sure there are some quick close quarter battles that got resolved in 2 combat turns. But when the battles start to last longer (for various reasons), I often drop the combat turn sequence as long as there's no direct confrontation (such as shooting someone) or I extend the duration of a combat turn (a shooting action becomes several shots) if the situation isn't likely to change much every 3 seconds.

[Kool Kat]

Longest battle in my campaign so far has lasted ten rounds (30 seconds). My PCs laid a good ambush on Highway 5 heading out of Seattle. Ares was moving some captured Shadowrunner allies in a convoy and they intercepted this convoy. Some well placed mines on the walls of the median dividers, good cover fire, a stolen combat drone and a few well placed AT4's and it was over. All that was left to do was step over the bits and pieces of Ares's personell and get the Shadowrunner team out of dodge.

[ElFenrir]

Well, we had one battle in SR3 that lasted RL...a LONG time.

What happened was it was our team(four people, me playing a game hunter, my friends gun specialist, and two mages), vs. another team(rigger, merc, combat mage and a hacker, who did have a gun also). We were in a field(open space), with a chain link fence between us.

Problem was, it was night(modifers, even with vision enhancements), raining a bit(more modifiers), we were at long range(we actually had the advantage there with our weapons...but still more modifiers), and it was foggy(even more modifiers). On top of that we had some light wounds(yes, even more modifiers).

Even with smartlinks and the like, our gun guys were looking at TNs of 10+, and the mages were a little better off; but still not by much.

The other team, though, had modifiers like we did. So it was a big whiffing contest. Occationaly a shot or something would hit home...which wouldnt do more than Light damage usually, due to the harsh modifiers, no one staged up damage and it was easier to stage down. Which, slowly piled on MORE modifiers. I think it took 2 hours or so of RL time. It was pretty insane. We eventually got the upper hand due to a couple lucky shots(my guy hit home with his rifle really well finally, and the mage managed to get a good shot on the car with a fire spell and it thankfully failed any resistances.) Still, though...wow.

EDIT: And before you ask why we didn't move closer...neither side did. Both sides had some scary pieces of weaponry that no one wanted to get close too. After the car finally got iced(it had rockets and an LMG), though, we stepped it up a bit. The car was what we were afraid of, and they were wary of our sniper rifle/assault shotgun combo. It could have been faster if one side had taken initative and went close; but thems the breaks. Still, though, they were of Medium distance from the fence....

[Nkari]

Yeah if you want long firefights, Pile on modefiers..

Cover, crappy vision etc.. it all ads up.. =)

Our groups longest so far is about 10 rounds.. but then they hug cover like no tomorrow and so does the badguys.. After first shot is fired you wont see anyone in the open unless there are no cover to be had..

[Carver]

[Penta]

This discussion leads me to wonder if there's a way to stretch out the game-time duration of combats (so that a sustained firefight can actually last more than a minute, without taking an eternity real-time) without screwing things up.

Because, yes, cops meeting perps in an alley? That fight can last only a minute, 30 seconds even. Sustained running gunbattle? Lasts more like 20-30 minutes, I'd think.