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> Punishing a character
MaxMahem
post Nov 10 2007, 07:25 AM
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I've recently started up a Shadowrun 4th edition game again. Shadowrun has always been my favorite setting, and it was my first RPG ever, so it seems to be what I do best. As is seemingly typical for Shadowrun games the PCs get themselves into trouble. ALOT. This is to be expected when you play a game focused on braking and circumventing the law.

However, I never had a player go so far as to get his character arrested before he even got to the first meeting with the fixer. Until the first session of this new campaign. The PC in question is a VERY large troll by the street name of "Bubba" kind of a country boy who came to the big city for work and adventure. Were playing in a semi-hombrewed version of New York City.

Anyways, 'Bubba' gets a call from his contact and is told that a fixer wants to speak to him about possibly getting him some work. The meet is set in Central Park on Manhattan. In my setting (as in cannon) Manhattan is generally a very high security neighborhood. Ranging from AAA to A (in SR3 terms). I informed all the players of this.

Bubba decides that he needs to bring his horrendous STR Min 10 bow (It deals 12P, more damage than a Panther Cannon), and wear his 'forest' pattern camouflage. I remind Bubba's player that this is only a meet with the fixer and that the huge bow, while technically legal, will probably get him some extra and unwanted police attention. Bubba decides to ignore this advice.

Next I query all the players on how they will get to Manhattan (access is semi-restricted, at least for most car traffic, need a special permit to drive on the island, fairly easy to get). Bubba decides to take the subway. I again point out to Bubba that the subway, especially in Manhattan is bound to have at least some police presence, and they will likely want to have a little talk with any persons trying to bring such a large and deadly weapon into the city. Bubba persist with his plan. As a last ditch attempt I have Bubba's player make a logic+intuition test, planning to force Bubba to leave the weapons behind (attributing this his character sense of common sense). Alas, Bubba is profoundly stupid, and rolls a critical failure. I sigh and tell him Bubba thinks it s a good idea.

The next set of events fall as you might expect. Even in the dangerous neighborhood Bubba lives in people are freaked out by the Troll in forest camo carrying a huge bow. I have Bubba make some perception checks, and tell him that he notices several people looking fearfully at him and speaking into their commlinks. Bubba ignores this subtle warning.

So, as Bubba changes station in a more upbeat crowded neighborhood, he finds himself surrounded by NYPD (who in my homebrew still run security in NYC). Who politely ask him if he wouldn't mind coming and having a word with him (hands on guns at the time). Miraculously, Bubba complies. A short walk later they wind up in a nearby security station, where they ask 'Bubba' to have a seat. He complies agian, and the Police politely inquire as to where Bubba is going and why he is carrying such a huge and lethal bow with him. Bubba, ever the charismatic one, responds that he is going 'squirrel hunting' in Central Park.

Concerned, the police ask to see his ID. At this point I should also point out that Bubba also has to massive obvious cyberlimbs. These limbs are augmented way beyond legal limits, and Bubba (being a sinless shadowrunner) does not have permits for them, fake or otherwise. Bubba's ID is also a medicore rating 2 fake. Upon detecting Bubba's fake ID and absence of permits for the cyberlimbs, the police decide to put Bubba under arrest.

At this point Bubba objects, and makes to fight the police. Thankfully for Bubba, I roll well on the 4 cops initiative, and the 4 of them manage to tazer him down before he can get an action. So Bubba winds up in jail, before the mission has really even started.

----

Anyways to be the nice GM that am. Or at least to try and balance out the evil that I will certainly inflict later, I deiced to let Bubba of easy, _this time_. I mean we hadn't even started the mission yet and he was already not going to be able to participate. The fixer that wanted to employ him pulled a few strings and got Bubba of on some minor charges (unlicensed possession of cyberware, unlicensed deadly weapon (ironicly again the cyberlimbs), ect...). He winds up with the Criminal SIN disadvantage, along with a point of Notoriety. The Police also confiscate (I'm sorry, accidentally 'lose') the bow and armor. And the fixer picks him up in time to join in with the mission (after informing him that this run would be free, and that Bubba still owed her big time). The fixer does manage to get him back his limbs however.

---

Anyways the rest of the mission proceeded without to much incident, though there was another minor run in with the NYPD. Which got me to thinking, what exactly should be the extent of the punishement the city would inflict on him. I've already decided there should be a fine (not sure how big), and that Bubba would be on Parol. What I'm most interest in is what you guys think the terms of his Parol should be.

Obviously another consequence of his Criminal SIN is that the police now have a recored of his DNA and fingerprints and all that, so whenever he commits another crime...
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kzt
post Nov 10 2007, 07:44 AM
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Typical parole conditions:

Drug & alcohol tests
No associating with known criminals
Meet the parole officer frequently to talk about how he's planning on turning his life around, his job, etc. (this should be fun to roleplay)
Don't get arrested again for ANYTHING
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Riley37
post Nov 10 2007, 08:57 AM
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Why punish the character?

Punish the PLAYER. By giving *him* parole. Require him to demonstrate an ongoing and successful plan for actually contributing to the story, rather than taking time away from everything but himself.

Hick/hayseed characters can work, and be funny, if properly played, eg Crocodile Dundee. But a character with obvious amped cyberlimbs is not a hick; he's a killing machine that just happens not to understand "the cops outnumber you in the city".
But not if the player is constantly testing your limits and your game's limits.
I'd say "Bubba attacked a cop and lost, and is now in prison; would you like to try a character more compatible with the game?"
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Stahlseele
post Nov 10 2007, 10:58 AM
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QUOTE
would you like to try a character more compatible with the game?

this is shadowrun, what would be more compatible than a troll with two obvious cyber limbs i ask you . . Ok, he was stupid enough to do something like that stunt with the bow . . Now he does NOT get any Money for that run AND has the criminal SIN . . One could argue, that he was staying in character by being stupid while playing a troll . . Such a Character is by far more fitting than all of those nice, elegant, good looking, classy(read bitchy) elves that people (somehow especially "good roleplayersâ„¢) tend to play . .

QUOTE
"the cops outnumber you in the city"

The Cops tend to do that anywhere, anyway . . and don't forgt Corp-Sec, they will outnumber every character too . . basically any group, even a small gang, will outnumber any character . . so? big deal . . Shadowrunners should be able to out-perform a certain numerical disadvantage on their side . . That's the whole point of cybernetics and magic in a character . . they get at least a fighting chance . . if you want to have numbers on your side, go, join the army or build a character who'S working with corp sec or play an under cover street cop so the star will leave you alone . .
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Cthulhudreams
post Nov 10 2007, 03:43 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele)
. One could argue, that he was staying in character by being stupid while playing a troll . . Such a Character is by far more fitting than all of those nice, elegant, good looking, classy(read bitchy) elves that people (somehow especially "good roleplayersâ„¢) tend to play . .

Calling disruptive play 'roleplaying' does not excuse the fact that it's supposed to be a co-operative storytelling game, and disruptive play is functionally the same as being an annoying dickhead

Which is pretty much what the troll appears to be doing, roleplaying or not.
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FriendoftheDork
post Nov 10 2007, 04:07 PM
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OP: I think you did it right, if maybe a bit too lenient. Now chances are the player may have learned something, or the character. This time he was lucky and only ended up with a 10-point flaw that he'll not get anything in return for.

My take is, since he's SINless the cops won't bother following up too much, although they'll keep an eye out for him. The next time they take him they're not likely to be as nice, and can quite legally execute him and dump him in an alley. It's not about punishment, it's about being the lowest member of society - having a criminal SIN.
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HappyDaze
post Nov 10 2007, 04:08 PM
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If this was your first session, there may be a disconnect with how the player perceives the world compared to the GM (and even the other players). While you gave him warning, he may have viewed it as challenges - much as D&D characters always head into 'certain death' situations yet come out alive time and again. Make sure the player OoC understands the type of game you're trying to run.

BTW, I rarely put meets in places difficult for runners to reach. The whole idea is that the person hiring them wants to get the meet done - if there are too many obstacles to getting to the meet, the rest of the run is less likely to even happen.
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Simon May
post Nov 10 2007, 05:36 PM
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Having him arrested isn't necessarily bad.

Cops, especially now that corp security is running the world, are likely more corrupt than ever. Therefore, a couple of the cops may even try to leverage that arrest into getting Bubba, and possibly his friends, into shaking down some local stores or even doing some runs against corp security teams in an attempt to make the police look better and earn the dirty cops a bit of cash. Perhaps they even fake Bubba's parole reports as part of the deal, meaning that Bubba can do what he wants unless they call for a favor. In addition, if they're connected, perhaps a cop higher up is willing to wipe his record for a few favors (or so he says) or maybe switch out the fingerprint and DNA samples.

You're still going to have to deal with getting a new fake sin, but now that the cops know Bubba, I see no reason they wouldn't abuse him to their advantage. Remember, even the bad stuff can work in the GM's favor.
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hyzmarca
post Nov 10 2007, 07:41 PM
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Where should I start.

1: Core Cyberlimb rules are stupid, and that includes legality codes for enhancements. Use Augmentation's Customized Cyberlimb rules instead.

QUOTE
The next set of events fall as you might expect. Even in the dangerous neighborhood Bubba lives in people are freaked out by the Troll in forest camo carrying a huge bow. I have Bubba make some perception checks, and tell him that he notices several people looking fearfully at him and speaking into their commlinks. Bubba ignores this subtle warning.


2: Why the hell would that attract any attention. He's a bow hunter. People hunt with bows. It is common. And due to the rarity of drive-by arrowing it is the sort of thing that people don't notice. People look at a guy in camo carrying a bow and they just naturally assume that he is a bow hunter. If he had been carrying a rifle, it may have been different. But he wasn't. *

If you're going to have a game world where bow hunting is somehow conspicuous, then you should tell the player first.

Of course, people might mistake him for Ted Nugent.

3: Cyberlimbs would not be considered deadly weapons because they only cause stun damage. (Steel is weak, boy, flesh is stronger).

4: Violations of hunting regulations would be handled by the Game Protector, not the NYPD.


In short, really, if you are going to play a game in which one can't grab a bow or a rifle and go hunting in Central Park then you should tell your players.


*I should point out that I live in the South.

QUOTE (Riley37)
Hick/hayseed characters can work, and be funny, if properly played, eg Crocodile Dundee. But a character with obvious amped cyberlimbs is not a hick; he's a killing machine that just happens not to understand "the cops outnumber you in the city".

I very much disagree. SR4 is trying to portray cyberlimbs as the poor man's clonal replacement. The guy could have lost both his arms in a horrific cotton bailing accident. The fact that cyberlimbs are not as good as a troll's natural meat (Steel is weak, boy, flesh is stronger) means that no sane troll would willingly get cyberlimbs unless he needed gadgets like grapple hands. Heavy amping is necessary for a cyberlimb to approach a troll's natural capability.


And just out of curiosity, did Bubby ever compliment anyone on having a "purdy mouth" because, if not, that oversight is worthy of punishment.
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Tarantula
post Nov 10 2007, 08:06 PM
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Another note, how are the cyberlimbs illegal? The only enhancements that are restricted are strength and body, and being a troll could be permit enough to get those.
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Penta
post Nov 10 2007, 08:40 PM
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Um, bow hunting (hunting of any kind, actually) -is- illegal in NYC. At all times. Carrying a bow around on the subway -would- get you looked at funny. There is -nowhere- in the City of New York to hunt, and Central Park would not be a legal place to hunt in any case. Bow hunting, anyway, requires a license. Which requires a SIN.

Also: NYPD *is* the game warden in NYC, IRL anyway. (You apply for a license to hunt at 1 Police Plaza.)

And hunting is so -uncommon- among city-dwellers it isn't funny.
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hyzmarca
post Nov 10 2007, 08:45 PM
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QUOTE (Penta @ Nov 10 2007, 03:40 PM)
Um, bow hunting (hunting of any kind, actually) -is- illegal in NYC. At all times. Carrying a bow around on the subway -would- get you looked at funny. There is -nowhere- in the City of New York to hunt, and Central Park would not be a legal place to hunt in any case.
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MaxMahem
post Nov 10 2007, 09:06 PM
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Thanks for all the replies.

QUOTE
Why punish the character?

Punish the PLAYER. By giving *him* parole. Require him to demonstrate an ongoing and successful plan for actually contributing to the story, rather than taking time away from everything but himself.

Hick/hayseed characters can work, and be funny, if properly played, eg Crocodile Dundee. But a character with obvious amped cyberlimbs is not a hick; he's a killing machine that just happens not to understand "the cops outnumber you in the city".
But not if the player is constantly testing your limits and your game's limits.
I'd say "Bubba attacked a cop and lost, and is now in prison; would you like to try a character more compatible with the game?"

I think the player has a pretty good character concept, he just executed it poorly this first mission. In his defense its been a little while since we have done Shadowrun and he may have been somewhat still caught up in the D&D mindset. He certainly was not intentionally trying to disrupt my game, and did put a good faith effort into roleplaying his character. I thought the outcome I went with was a good lesson on the effects of stupid criminal behavior in Shadowrun. Note however that if Bubba had managed to kill any of the cops the player WOULD have had to role up a new character. All this happened before the mission actually got started and I was trying to disrupt my game as little as possible (ie by letting him participate with the character he made, and I approved).

QUOTE
If this was your first session, there may be a disconnect with how the player perceives the world compared to the GM (and even the other players). While you gave him warning, he may have viewed it as challenges - much as D&D characters always head into 'certain death' situations yet come out alive time and again. Make sure the player OoC understands the type of game you're trying to run.

I think this is exactly what happened. We've done shadowrun before, but its been a while. On the other hand, I thought my OOC warnings were pretty clear, hopefully the in character results got the point through.

QUOTE
BTW, I rarely put meets in places difficult for runners to reach. The whole idea is that the person hiring them wants to get the meet done - if there are too many obstacles to getting to the meet, the rest of the run is less likely to even happen.

Shouldn't have been that hard to reach, none of the other players had a problem. Heck, they even managed to bring their small-arms along.

QUOTE
1: Core Cyberlimb rules are stupid, and that includes legality codes for enhancements. Use Augmentation's Customized Cyberlimb rules instead.

Another note, how are the cyberlimbs illegal? The only enhancements that are restricted are strength and body, and being a troll could be permit enough to get those.

I don't have Augemtation's (yet) so I had to go with the Core-rules semi homebrewed (so that a Troll could have a useful cyberlimb. I agree that the legality codes are rather silly (especialy considering his Car-killing bow is perfectly legal). I told the player that his limbs were "technicaly" illegal. But that nobody was likely to give him trouble over them, unless he was getting trouble over something else as well. Unfortunately for that is exactly what happened. The NYPD wasn't to happy with him riding around on the Subway with such a massive bow, for 'squirrel hunting' in Central Park. They couldn't arrest him for that though, so they brought him in for the cyberlimbs.

QUOTE
2: Why the hell would that attract any attention. He's a bow hunter. People hunt with bows. It is common. And due to the rarity of drive-by arrowing it is the sort of thing that people don't notice. People look at a guy in camo carrying a bow and they just naturally assume that he is a bow hunter. If he had been carrying a rifle, it may have been different. But he wasn't. *

If you're going to have a game world where bow hunting is somehow conspicuous, then you should tell the player first.

Note that this game is taking place in New York City, and Bubba was heading to Central Park on Manhattan Island, certainly NOT anyplace bow hunting would be common. I'm not clear on the modern legality on bows, but I would bet that if you got on the Subway in NYC today wearing camo and carying a large bow the police might be a little concerned by it. Your fellow passengers certainly would be. The player was aware of this during player creation. And also, if he had given the police any sort of excuse other than 'squirrel hunting' in Central Park I would have let him by, I was looking for an excuse to let him off and start my game.

Also note that this is NOT your average bow. This is a STR Min 10 "Bow-O-Doom." The strongest human in history couldn't operate it, heck the human augmented max (9) is still to little, so a cybered to the gills sammy STILL couldn't operate it. Its to much for your average troll or uncybered ork/dwarf as well. This bow has got to be absolutely massive, and is really only appropriate for hunting like, well Cars or something.

QUOTE
3: Cyberlimbs would not be considered deadly weapons because they only cause stun damage. (Steel is weak, boy, flesh is stronger).

Well I'm inclined to agree with you but the rules say differently. The deadly 12P dealing bow in perfectly legal, while the cyberlimb is illegal (or at lest restricted). I did house-rule that the obvious cyberlimb dealt (STR/2+1)P though. My solution to this in-game was for him to not get much hassle for the limbs, but to get hassle for the bow. The player was aware of this.

QUOTE
I very much disagree. SR4 is trying to portray cyberlimbs as the poor man's clonal replacement. The guy could have lost both his arms in a horrific cotton bailing accident. The fact that cyberlimbs are not as good as a troll's natural meat (Steel is weak, boy, flesh is stronger) means that no sane troll would willingly get cyberlimbs unless he needed gadgets like grapple hands. Heavy amping is necessary for a cyberlimb to approach a troll's natural capability.

Hit the nail on the head. 'Bubba' lost the arm and leg in a hay-mower accident. And even with my houserules Bubba has to max out his cyberlimbs to even match original bodies capabilities.
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Stahlseele
post Nov 10 2007, 09:16 PM
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QUOTE
heck the human augmented max (9) is still to little, so a cybered to the gills sammy STILL couldn't operate it.

just a little nit picking here . . an EXCEPTIONALLY strong Human could with cyber/bio, because the racial modified limit changes from 9 to 10 or 11
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Cain
post Nov 10 2007, 09:21 PM
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Oh, come on now, even massive bows are carried in cases. And those cases don't have "ballista" stamped on them; you can see a few samples here. I'd at least have given Bubba the benefit of the doubt, and presumed that he had a bow case. It's still a dumb idea to carry it around willy-nilly, but it also wouldn't cause a panic on the subway.
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Tarantula
post Nov 10 2007, 09:35 PM
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Good point Cain. I doubt the other shadowrunners carried their small arms around on their way in, why did Bubba?
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Stahlseele
post Nov 10 2007, 10:43 PM
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QUOTE
Shouldn't have been that hard to reach, none of the other players had a problem. Heck, they even managed to bring their small-arms along.

oh yes, they did, he just said so O.o
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Cain
post Nov 10 2007, 11:04 PM
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He means, he doubts that they carried their small arms around *openly*. :P
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Stahlseele
post Nov 10 2007, 11:08 PM
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oh, okay, my bad x.x . .
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MaxMahem
post Nov 11 2007, 12:24 AM
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QUOTE
Oh, come on now, even massive bows are carried in cases. And those cases don't have "ballista" stamped on them; you can see a few samples here. I'd at least have given Bubba the benefit of the doubt, and presumed that he had a bow case. It's still a dumb idea to carry it around willy-nilly, but it also wouldn't cause a panic on the subway.

A good idea, I'll pass this suggestion along to Bubba's player. In any event he explicitly did NOT do this. He had the bow and arrows out and ready, 'in case he had to use them.' Digging/assembling the bow out of a box would not have let me do this.
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Cain
post Nov 11 2007, 12:50 AM
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*shrug* You can carry a strung bow in the case, and a line of arrows as well. Make it, say, a complex action to ready the bow and nock an arrow, and he's only slightly worse off than everyone else. Granted, he was still silly for not using a case, but he sounds like a newbie and deserves a few breaks.
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Sir_Psycho
post Nov 11 2007, 02:26 AM
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Penalize him all you want. Fine him, make him forced to be a pro-bono shadowrunner for his NYPD Inc. Parole officer.

But give the man at least a karma point, for sheer hilarity.
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Mercer
post Nov 11 2007, 02:56 AM
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I regret waiting so long to come into this topic, as my current character happens to be a Criminal SINner who's on parole (although this condition arises from character creation, rather than in-game consequences). So I can say this:

A crooked parole officer is a wonderful thing. I mean, basically you're parole officer owns your ass. You can go back to prison anytime off his recommendation. You have no rights. He can enter your home, search through your stuff, doesn't need a warrant an no one will ever, ever take your word over his. Now, imagine that level of power in the hands of an unscrupulous person, over a cybered-up killing machine.

My character takes jobs just so I don't go back to prison. he PO covers for me with fake work reports, fake cyber scans and good behavior updates, and in return he gets a cut of my earnings. I'm getting my freedom on the installment plan.

Most of knowledge of parole comes from watching the fine Law & Order family of shows, and it was covered in more depth in the Lone Star sourcebook for SR2. As a minor point, Parole is an early conditional release from prison, Probation is a sentenced monitoring period. You would typically have to serve a portion of your prison sentence before you got paroled, whereas probation you could get hit with right away. I'm like 90% sure on this terminology, but I'm not a legal scholar.
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Tarantula
post Nov 11 2007, 04:28 AM
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Did the other runners explicitly carry their sidearms in concealable holsters and whatnot? Do they even have a holster?

I wouldn't penalize him to a complex for readying his bow. I'd argue that carrying it around ready would be what it sounds like he was doing. As in, he wouldn't need a ready action to fire correct?

In a case would require the simple action to ready it before fireing. I suppose you can chalk it up to Bubba's critical glitch on his int+log test, and tell him Bubba didn't realize it was a bad idea to do that. From now on, I'd give him a free hit on such tests involving open weaponry and just flat out say "thats a bad idea, remember when the cops busted you?"
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Cain
post Nov 11 2007, 06:16 AM
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QUOTE

I wouldn't penalize him to a complex for readying his bow. I'd argue that carrying it around ready would be what it sounds like he was doing. As in, he wouldn't need a ready action to fire correct?

To get a firearm out and firing, you need to take a Ready Weapon action to draw it, and another Simple Action to fire it. You can attempt to quickdraw pistols, but that carries a penalty. A Complex Action to ready a bow and arrow isn't much of a penalty.

If he wanted to avoid the Ready Weapon action to load the bow, he'd need to not only have an arrow nocked, he'd need to keep it drawn. And I don't care how strong you are, you can't hold a bow drawn for any significant length of time. You'll stress out your bowstring, for one. I also doubt even Bubba would be stupid enough to keep a bow drawn for an entire subway trip. :P
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RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 06:20 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.