Punishing a character Options

[Penta]

[MaxMahem]

[Tarantula]

[Simon May]

[FriendoftheDork]

[Falconer]

I see nothing wrong with what you did. The character was being an idiot, he's lucky he wasn't left dead and dumped in the river by the cops. Frankly, if he was as big and beefy, I see no reason he couldn't just get away with something simple like a survival knife. It's obvious, that the venue was chosen because it was safe and low risk area for people just to meet.

Also not all areas are regulated uniformly. The main book reflects the Seattle area legalties, correct? Just because something doesn't have an 'R' doesn't mean that it's fair game everywhere and anywhere. Who's to say that the local politicos don't have a regulation against bows with over 60lbs draw in this locale? (frankly that makes sense given the legality issues on a panther assault cannon!).



Also a lot of these comments regarding bows I find silly. There's no reason it would have to be a longbow or even a recurve. Why not a compound bow? I can't think of a good reason the bow would be physically larger than another if you replace wood w/ composite or spring steel alloy. Mind you I prefer a nice 60lb take down recurve for recreational shooting... but compounds have a lot of good points. No reason it'd be larger though, it'd probably be heavier (not a problem for the high str individual).

Also drawing an ultra-high strength bow requires your arms yes, BUT MORE IMPORTANT IS YOUR BACK AND SHOULDERS!!! Forensic anthropologists can discern a medieval archer's skeleton from anothers just by deformations present in the back/shoulder/arm area. Strikes me that using a bow should require average strength of torso and both arms. You mention the troll only has two cyberarms.

I sometimes have images of these trollbow guys w/o cybertorsos having their back muscles ripping loose from their bones from the excessive strain. Only fair considering it does as much as a panther assault cannon w/ none of the legality issues!

[HappyDaze]

[Simon May]

What are you talking about? As long as you don't go anywhere near a high school, the law can't make a couple trench coats Columbine into a reason to arrest you.

[HappyDaze]

Bullshit. Profiling is alive and well. If I'm a corp cop in a corp enclave, then I'll take the time to give special attention to those with 'trenchcoats' or to those wearing oversized hoodies in the summer, or anything else that seems out of place. I've never been a cop (poor hearing kept me out of the academy), but I was a probation officer and a corrections officer and I have several cops as friends - they're paid to think, not to just look at the 'legality code' of a particualr piece of equipment.

BTW, I never said arrest - just that they attract attention. If you then have something on you that gets you arrested...

[kzt]

And the ACLU appears in what SR source books? Has an SR4 book mentioned a need for "probable cause"? What makes you think they can't just stop and search? It's how it works in most European countries. "You papers please" isn't just said in German.

[Sren]

Story Time!

You did the right thing. HAd something similar happen in a campaign when I was in college. The characters were in Hawaii, and the johnson wanted to meet on the beach. The beach was a safe, neutral area, with tons of visible, local security (consisting of cops on 4-wheelers with armored jackets and tasers).

All but one character showed up in a bathing suite without any visible weapons. The troll (is this a common theme), however, decided to bring all the gear on his character sheet. Not only was he fully armored so the beach guards couldn't hurt him without a lot of luck, but he was carrying several guns and a 3-meter combat ax.

The beach guards decided that their tasers weren't going to work, so they just ran him down several times, then tasered him after he was almost unconscious. They took him in, then turned him over to a criminal group that we were being hired to take care of in the first place. We had to rescue him, but that was the last time the group bothered rescuing him. He continued to get into trouble, and the group eventually had to kill him after he tried to make a deal with a bug shaman who just used the opportunity to use the influence power of the queen spirit to force him to attack us.

Am I the only one who sees this as a pattern for Trolls... does anyone see orks doing the same dumb things?

[Cain]

[MaxMahem]

Again thanks for all the replies. I haven't been really responding to the positive ones, but I am going to take most of these suggestions into account. Bubba's parole/probation officer is going to be an interesting character to add into the mix, but I sometimes wonder if that is to much penalty to lay on top of his criminal SIN. I mean the police have his prints on file and everything now, so next time he leaves some physical evidence of a crime behind they won't have to wonder much who did it. I'm beginning to think that adding a parole/probation officer who also owns Bubba's but might be pushing it a bit. I mean he already owes a signifigant favor to his fixer now as well.

[hyzmarca]

This is a completely crazy suggestion, but how about his parole conditions requiring him to perform community service as a "love troll" for "scared straight".

Really, with the name Bubba he's just asking for a chance to fulfill the popular meme. "You elf boys sure have purdy mouths".

[Cain]

[Whipstitch]

Agreed. I own a Matthews Switchback XT and that thing's actually only about 4 lbs and 30" inches from axle to axle despite the fact that it's rated at 300+ FPS and can handle a 70 lb draw (not that *I* use 70; I'm a wuss. 50 all the way for me). That's not all that long for an adult's bow; a lot of bows actually sit in the 32-35 inch range with some outliers at 36-37, but I know from experience that it's apparently quite possible to engineer a a pretty compact bow and still kill stuff dead. I wouldn't be particularly surprised if it turns out that bows are large these days mostly because there's really no crying need or demand for shorter ones; most improvements these days focus on smooth draws and cutting down on vibration..

[MaxMahem]

[Falconer]

Max:
If you want a very nasty way to glitch or attack a high strength bow. Have the string break or ask for a called shot to break the string! Frayed bowstrings are NOT a laughing matter. The thing could be as good as a monowire whip when it breaks and whips around for a single attack! Also the limbs (especially when tensed) are a fine balance between durability and flexibility, a called shot to the limb could damage it enough that the limb breaks when drawn the next time.


A quick primer on the physics of bows. I agree a troll's bow would be physically different, but I don't agree it would necessarily be larger simply because the troll is larger. It also means a longbow for a normal human would be a normal size bow for a troll, as well as allowing a troll to use a physically massive bow. Interesting, but unrelated, the taller a bow is the easier it is to shoot precisely as the bow is more stable.

The most important thing to the troll as an archer. Is the bow able to properly flex to the accomodate the trolls larger arms and draw length? Also accordingly the trolls arrows would be much longer, heavier, and larger! This could be accomplished in one of 3 ways that I can think of. Those are more flexible limbs, physically larger bow, and gearing either singly or in combination. This is exactly the same as asking in a way, what's the difference between a child's bow and an adults bow in the modern day.
(check out the wiki articals on recurve bows, compound bows, and mechanical advantage as it regards pulley systems).

A normal human has roughly a 24-30" draw with a longbow type weapon (drawn to the side of the head to the ear). Horse or shortbow types are generally only drawn to the chin (giving them a 18-24" draw length). I'd say a troll is 50% larger than a human, so would probably have a 50% longer draw of about 4feet.

The term draw weight is somewhat misleading as it's actually more of a chart.. how far back is the bowstring pulled back and how many pounds force does it take to hold the string at that point. Generally there is a peak draw weight, and a hold draw weight. For a long or recurve there is no letoff so the farther back you pull a bow, the more weight the bow pulls back with. This matters because the arrows speed when it leaves the bow is the integral of the acceleration (F=ma) over the draw length.

Contrary to the SR4 rulebook, a normal human could probably draw a trollbow, they just would not be able to draw it back the full 4 feet and make it reach it's maximum strength. So more properly, a normal human would be inable to use the bow properly to it's maximum potential. It's also unlikely the human would be able to get it past it's peak draw weight, but they would still be able to pull it back a short distance. There's enough if's there to make the weapon far from optimal and nowhere near it's normal performance and with a huge dice pool penalty just for trying it.

[Falconer]

Just read your last post (made while I was writing that long one)... two small points... 400lbs draw is not unheard of. That is about the draw weight on a medieval arbalast (heavy crossbow). That's NOT the size of a siege weapon. The most notable difference between the arbalast and the longbow is that the arbalast used relatively short steel springs instead of longer more flexible wooden limbs. (there's also a problem with efficiencies... medieval crossbows were hugely ineffecient at translating that draw weight into bolt velocity... made even worse because bolts were typically accelerated over a short distance of 12inches instead of 30inches. The major advantage of xbows was their lack of special training requirements vs. the life training requirement for an archer.

On arrows and bullets...
A broadhead arrow can slice through a phonebook. A 3" thick phonebook will commonly stop many pistol bullets cold. (this is actually a reason that pistols are more efficient than bows... overpenetration is energy that doesn't go into deforming and killing the target! having the bullet 'shatter' in the target is an advantage). But it does neatly show the penetrating power of a relatively massive arrow over a few grains of bullet when it slams into something. It would be more realistic in this aspect of the SRun bows instead of ramping up raw damage ramped up the AP value of the bow but w/ a lower damage.

Yes, Bubba would require a bit more exotic arrow construction. The arrow flexes when fired. If it flexes too much it snaps or is inaccurate. Modern compound bows shouldn't be fired with wooden/fiberglass arrows designed for recurves because the arrow can break or shatter on release, potentially injuring the shooter.

As far as your ranges... a sporting rifle (to say nothing of a sniper rifle) has a 750m extreme range by the book. (note I'm on record as stating I think firearms should lose 1point of armor penetration per range bracket, bullets don't hit as hard at long range as point-blank). If the bow is going 600m it's not firing directly like a gun is (arcing is still minimal for a gun at those ranges as the bullet is so light everything is based on velocity kinetic energies). It's arcing in a very high ballistic arc. At that point...it doesn't hit hard as if it was fired directly on a low arc at short distances. (aerodynamic drag reduces the arrow to terminal velocity as gravity brings it back down). You wouldn't be out on a limb to halve the bows damage at that range. (look up something called clout archery). Also you could make a case, that it only reaches that range when 'flight' arrows are used (special arrows which do less damage/accuracy but which are designed specifically to fly as far as possible). I'll put myself on the record and state I think a bow/xbow should probably lose 2 or 3 points of AP per range bracket.

[Stahlseele]

Remembver, we're talking unaugmented maximum strength being 10 for a troll . . at 600m . . so if augmented to 15 strength, you get much more range(if that is still coming from strength) . . also, SR does not take into account such things as projectiles such as arrows needing to be shot at an ballistic angle to reach that range . . also there's nothing saying that weapons get weaker with range, else you could allways argue, that they get stronger the closer you are . . light pistol set in head of troll does not make troll head go SPLAT . . there was nothing in SR3 that could match a Troll with Strength of 16 and an Ranger-X Compound bow that was below heavy weapon . . and even some of those had to stand back in regards of power niveau . .
I still remember with glee the horror on the face of one of my GM's as i showed him what could be accomplished with a Strength 16 Troll . . Bone Lace Plastic and Hardliner Gloves make for a nice 19M Damage in unarmed Combat . . a Pole Arm with Dikote does 20D Damage . . and the Bow did 20M Damage over . . let's see . . STRx60 ? 960 meters ? only Sniper Rifles and Heavy Weapons and some Rockets could match that . . but only 2 weapons can match or get a higher Power-Niveau . . Ares Great Dragon ATGM with 20D AV Damage and the Vindicator Minigun which starts at 7S and works up to 22D with a recoil of 15 . . everything else above that is vehicle mounted *g*

[Ed_209a]

I would have done nearly the same thing as the OP.

Before the game started, I would tell the player I house-rules bows as (STR/2)+X, not STR+X for damage. Then ask if he still wanted to play a troll archer.

Assuming he did, he would be apprehended for disturbing the peace if nothing else. A troll in hunting gear walking through Manhattan makes the wage slaves wonder who, not what, the troll is hunting.

I would give him a fast-forward trial, and 60-days later he is in prison for 36 mo...

He then wakes suddenly, thinking "Man! I was a dumbass!"

It was a dream, a warning, and a GM gimme, all in one.

[Blade]

Just a simple reminder:
SR4 + troll + bow = munchkin PC.

I've never seen any trolls with bows in previous editions. SR4 arrives with these extremely powerful bows and suddenly you start seeing trolls with bows everywhere.

And don't give me that "the good runner just take whatever is the most powerful weapon he can get." line. Nobody sane in his mind will think that a bow can be better than a panther canon. I'm not even sure that the average runner knows that boosted strength troll-sized bows exist. It's just silly munchkinism and such characters should attract thor shots (or bovine bombardment) because "the good corporate guard uses whatever is the most powerful weapon his corps can get".

[Ol' Scratch]

Uh, yeah.

The insane Strength and bow "exploit" has been around for quite some time. It's hardly unique to SR4, and it's not even as easy to do as it was in previous editions (which is saying something).

[Ustio]

Simple fix for trolls with bows,

Min Str = rating = no higher than 6 at char gen

after char gen just point out that as a custom job they'd have to go and find someone with one for sale

[Blade]

I don't remember seeing any troll bow in SR3... I guess there was a more powerful combo...

(I seem to recall something that had to do with some adepts powers and dikote (and probably DMSO+GammaSco on the tip), I don't remember if it was still for bows or just for throwing weapons)