 Desparate Circumstances, What have your characters survived? |
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 Nov 15 2007, 07:56 AM
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#51
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Immoral Elf  Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486  |
My savior. I knew there was one! :D |
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Nov 15 2007, 08:15 AM
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#52
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Well, it shouldn't. ;)
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Nov 15 2007, 12:52 PM
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#53
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Argh! No! Once again, what do you think the purpose of a firecracker is? What do you think it is designed to do, its sole purpose in life? A firecracker is at every turn (except the ones that increase price, natch) designed to maximize the noise it makes. It's just a bad comparison, and everyone should stop using it. ~J |
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Nov 15 2007, 02:22 PM
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#54
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
I thought firecrackers were used to scare away the bad spirits every new years. At least that's what I do with them.
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Nov 15 2007, 03:59 PM
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#55
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
And then mechanism by which they are supposed to drive away spirits is…
~J |
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Nov 15 2007, 09:53 PM
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#56
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...According to Chinese legend...
...the universe was believed to have good forces of energy (shen or "benevolent spirits") and bad forces of energy (kuei or "malevolent spirits"). Creating a din, especially by using firecrackers was believed to dispel the malignant spirits. |
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Nov 15 2007, 10:15 PM
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#57
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The bit I was looking for was the first clause of your last sentence.
~J |
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Nov 16 2007, 07:43 AM
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#58
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Guys, it's FutureTech!
If we can accept Great Dragons, cybernetics, missions to mars and orbital weapons being deployed to kill one man, is it so hard to buy that they've engineered an explosive with the ridiculous energy density by mass to fire an explosive bullet from a pistol or rifle? |
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Nov 16 2007, 07:55 AM
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#59
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Guys, it's FutureTech!
If we can accept Great Dragons, cybernetics, missions to mars and orbital weapons being deployed to kill one man, is it so hard to buy that they've engineered a bullet that does extra damage and pierces armor better, without popping like a firecracker for no good reason? |
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Nov 16 2007, 08:01 AM
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#60
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Yes. Yes, it is. We call that 'APDS' already. Whereas Ex-Ex is clearly understood to stand for EX-Explosive. Emphasis on Explosive. |
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Nov 16 2007, 08:14 AM
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#61
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Except that they're described as being frangible, making "EX EX" just as silly a name as "APDS" for what the bullet actually does.
Why are people so into bringing realism to Shadowrun firearms just to make a suppressed weapon make sound (from teh bullet-bombs, zomg!), but so quick to shrill and wail and complain when the firearm realism crowd wants guns to actually work right? Does your desparate circumstances story matter that much to you, despite already being debunked as a crappy story due to illegal gear combinations being at the core of it? We get it. You think the guy was being stupid, and you think bullets explode. Okay. |
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Nov 16 2007, 09:51 AM
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#62
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Are there explicit rules for the modifier to sound-based perception checks for, say, a laser firing? A high-capacity capacitor discharging all of it's juice in one go? A car crashing into a building? A dikoted katana-form Ally Spirit being used to cleave a motorbike in two? A troll using a sledgehammer to smash through a wall? A roadway construction crew with pnumatic hammers and heavy equipment? The constant whistling sound of steam from a pipe? The sound made when a troll uses a urinal as a melee weapon to smash it over someone's head? The sound of the john flushing?
I coulden't find any, but I think we can all agree that those all would make a significant and distinct sound. Specifically, in order, they would make the following sounds: Freeeeeeeem! Ka-BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZAPT! Ke-raaaaash! Schling! *clatter clatter* SMASH! Various construction site sounds. Hissssssssssssssssss! Porcelean smashing loudly and crinkling to the ground. Ka-flush. So, given that, and given the obvious incongruity of a frangible round being better able to pierce armor than regular, the only obvious conclusion is that Ex-Explosive ammuntion is actually explosive, and powerfully so. I'm taking it as a given that we can all define an explosion as a great amount of pressure generated as a small amount of solid (or liquid) turns into a lot of hot gas in a very short time, and then proceeds to expediently and energetically expand to fill the volume of the container it is in, thus bursting that contain (the bullet) and dealing some fairly significant damage from overpressure alone to the surrounding objects. Given that, it is also a given that, barring magical or technological interferance, the sound made is "BANG", as the overpressure waves slam into the metahuman eardrum, registering as a loud sound. |
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Nov 16 2007, 10:42 AM
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#63
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
Two things, one how is APDS a stupid name for what it does? It is armor piercing ammunition by virtue of it's discarding sabot structure. Now, granted the discarding part is kind of redundant, but that's the military for you. I mean, you get a much greater grain load to great alot more force and fire a small aerodynamic projectile much faster than if you had in fact used a bullet with a grain capacity the size of the small projectile. F = MA so since you increase A a lot to make up for lost mass, the bullet strikes with the same Force focused into a much smaller target area and shazam it penetrates armor in a much more efficient fashion.
Second thing, the Javelin missile system we have today has an armor piercing design(so do alot of other missiles) that basically explodes when it hits the target to blast off the top layer or so of armor, allowing a secondary cartridge to penetrate further into the target and then explode as well. With the nanotech and all that jazz, I see no reason you couldn't transport that same idea into a much much smaller form. Bullet impacts, small high grade explosive charge on the outer casing goes off destroying some of the outer layer of armor, bullet penetrates and explodes itself once inside, increasing damage. Thus, Ex-Explosive. Not a gun fanatic so feel free to offer real world proof of why these wouldn't work. I'll feel free to ignore you, well, unless you actually make a really good point then I might change my mind. It has happened before. Chris |
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Nov 16 2007, 11:31 AM
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#64
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Oh, well, shit. You typed up some sound effects. I'm out of my league. The guy was a doof, bullets explode just like minigrenades, and your story was awesome. You win.
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Nov 16 2007, 02:02 PM
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#65
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Yes. Why? Because they happen to have And, in fact, I at least cannot accept orbital weapons being deployed to kill one man, at least not the one man involved—though at least it's easier to accept than that one man was to begin with.
The problem isn't that it's a stupid name for what it does, it's that it's a stupid name for what it does for something you can put into something like a pistol or assault rifle.
Argument through incredulity is not useful. (Note to self: do not try to make sense when tired) ~J |
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Nov 16 2007, 02:07 PM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 2,072 |
Sorry Imperialis :wobble:
twas good while it lasted... |
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Nov 16 2007, 02:19 PM
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#67
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
I've only played 4th.
Now I can see why you think they are frangible rounds, which makes sense due to the 'fragment' bit of the description. However the flipside makes sense because it says the world 'explode' (I know it can mean distintergrate or though it's not entirely clear how that could explode and hit you in the face). I mean, a fragmentation grenade fragements and explodes. So yeah either argument is probably viable given the entire two paragraphs to operate off. If something else says something different though fair enough. |
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Nov 16 2007, 03:15 PM
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#68
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Something else does say different. In particular, two something elses (Fields of Fire and the SR3 core book) say two differents (round explodes and round just fragments, respectively).
~J |
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Nov 16 2007, 05:25 PM
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#69
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Is it possible that the first Ex in Ex-Ex is in fact Experimental? IE: Not stable in batches large enough to prove useful as a blasting agent for purposes such as demolitions, but useful for squeezing a few droplets inside a bullet?
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Nov 16 2007, 05:44 PM
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#70
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
If it's an armor piercing round without a sabot it's called AP. There are lots of variations on this, but it's a nice generic phrase that doesn't bring other baggage along with it. APDS requires a sabot on the bullet that is discarded. That's why it is called an Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot. Small arms rounds don't use sabots for armor piercing, it's what larger support weapons use. This is because of several reason. One is that they don't work. Lots of time and money was invested in trying to make a 7.62mm SLAP work, and it usually did, except when it exited out the side of the machine gun barrel. This was considered a bad thing. The other is that you have the pieces of the plastic sabot flying out of the muzzle at some silly velocity and expanding in a cloud to the front. This is a cloud of small, very hot, very fast moving particles. So it will chew a person (or other non-armored object in front of the barrel) up something awful. This is why Tanks and IFVs shooting sabot have this warnings in the manual about not shooting over troops within 500 meters IIRC. There is a 50 cal SLAP round that works, and there was a not disastrously unsuccessful non-ap round called the Remington accelerator. It was a hunting round shooting a .223 hollow point bullet out of a .308 IIRC. Which didn't go through the side of rifles barrels on sabot failure because it wasn't made of a superhard armor piercing metal, but it was a commercial failure none the less. |
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Nov 16 2007, 05:57 PM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727 |
but mom, I wanted to know what have the runners survived!!!!
-I second whoever said ammo discussion belong into another thread- Cheers. Max |
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Nov 16 2007, 06:49 PM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047 |
Derail a thread with firearms? Why it must be dumpshock!
Thirded on return to thread subject. |
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Nov 16 2007, 06:53 PM
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#73
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Congratulations, you've derailed the thread with votes to return from derailment. Maybe if you, you know, actually posted on the original topic it might work better?
~J |
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Nov 16 2007, 07:07 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047 |
Working on it. Though technically your continuing the derailment.
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Nov 16 2007, 07:53 PM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047 |
I had my team of runners wander into a ambush which I did not give them an escape route from.
They where sent on a dummy run into a renraku subsidiary, the plans from the Johnson showed a fake sensor gap they could exploit. To use this they had to traverse from the outer fence, cross fifteen meters to production facility roof then across ten meter gap to the office building roof. The four runners faced a six man team of Red samurai including a mage, all equivalent on karma to the runners. In addition they had fifteen on site sec guards. The plan was to wait till the runner tried to get to the office building and then hit them with a two samurai fire platforms and the secguards covering the ground escape. The mage had summoned a force ten elemental especially for the group as he had faced them before. At best the runners would be trapped on the production facility roof facing grenades from the Red samurai. All goes well for the Red samurai till the street sam spots a hidden camera in the sensor gap. He alerts his team. To late however the runners are now on the production buildings roof. Enemy elementals appear, full recoil comp hvar opens up, two red samurai snipe from other rooftops. All the exits are closed. The runner mage elementals are falling to the enemy spirits. The runners cower behind the one foot high wall on the roof. All looks bleak. Then the street sam risks death to cut open a hole in the roof with his dikoted katana. Dodgy a hail of bullets he hacks open an escape route. The runners levitate or rappel out of being pinned just as the first grenades start falling. They now have out manoeuvered the red Sammies. Inside the production facility, they take on the sec guards. The street sam gets turned invisible and goes on a killing spree to create an escape route. The mage takes on the bound spirits inside the building. The others provide covering fire. Blood bath ensues. Then the four of the red samurai breach the exits to block escape. The red sam mage levitates to the hole in the roof to lightning bolt the runners. The mage gets hit by a arrow from the physad, the runners take out the red samurai in the building but are still trapped inside by the hvar, mage and force ten elemental. Breathing space. Everyone is hurt bad. The runners mage goes toe to toe with the elemental and wins. The decker runs for the gate under fire, a distraction for the physad and the street sam to climb back to the roof. The runner mage goes invisible and escapes the gate. The phys ad and the street sam climb back up to the roof and to take out the mage. The mage casts lightning bolt through his ally spirit only to miss and the combat decker too snap shot the ally spirit but good. The phys ad takes out the mage from behind and the street sam shots dead a Red Samurai on the opporsite roof. One hvar toting red samurai stand between them and freedom. The red samurai starts throwing grenades. The street sam throws them back! Final score. Renraku 0 runners 18 and change |
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