 Fear Power, Seems too powerful... |
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 Nov 13 2007, 09:37 PM
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#51
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686  |
You wouldn't be cowering in a corner Funk. "The victim will race in panic for the nearest point of apparent safety, and will not stop until he is out of sight and a safe distance away."
Not "cower a corner and die" but get away, by any means possible. You're not cowering in the corner, you're running past it, trying to get out the door, window, in the closet, etc. |
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Nov 13 2007, 09:41 PM
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#52
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
<sighs> It was a generic statement. Doesn't matter if it's Fear. Doesn't matter if it's Paralyzing Howl. You're stuck doing nothing but being vulnerable for the duration. And in the case of running away, a paraphrased line from "From Dusk Till Dawn" is pretty apt: That revolver has six little friends that all run faster than you do.
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Nov 13 2007, 10:09 PM
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#53
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Target Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 9-November 07 Member No.: 14,105 |
I don't really get the whole furor here, true, it sucks to get feared and be unable to shoot stuff for a bit, but it doesn't mean you have no control at all. You can quite easily play it out, choose a good place to take cover and hide behind there till the supernatural fear fades (the natural fear of dying will always remain).
If you just go at a dead run, without any regard for self preservation, then it's not much of a wonder that you get gunned down.. if you consistently get feared and gunned down in that matter, have a chat with the GM. |
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Nov 13 2007, 10:59 PM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 5-February 05 Member No.: 7,053 |
If this is what your character is like, then you should have put more points in Willpower. If you have a high Willpower and still get feared by a force 9 spirit, well, that's because it's magic. Magic doesn't care how badass you think you are, and players who can't accept they're going to be outclassed in the Shadowrun world aren't going to last very long. |
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Nov 13 2007, 11:22 PM
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#55
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Man Behind the Curtain Group: Admin Posts: 14,873 Joined: 2-July 89 From: End of the Yellow-Brick Road Member No.: 3 |
I can see magical fear over-taking all but the most die-hard individuals.. or those simply lacking a fear impulse - for the most part. Willpower for the most part deals with that and the guts quality.
Three things I think are lacking in the rules however are (1) increased resistance of people who have previously experienced magical fear, (2) situational modifiers and (3) the fact that unlike a spell the fear need not be sustained. What I mean by a situational modifier is unnatural human responses to the current situation: A normal person who lifts a car off of a relative/friend/a child, a person who sacrifices their life by throwing themselves on a grenade to save everyone else, etc. Things that are contrary to normal abilities or the self preservation response. These have nothing to do with an inability to "accept they're going to be outclassed in the Shadowrun world", rather these are more ingrained responses.. reactions. |
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Nov 13 2007, 11:41 PM
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#56
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
I could possibly see something form the second one, not the first. Fear is an overpowering magical affect. It's not the same thing as somone simply being too afraid to act. it makes hardened street sams and ghouls blood mages run in Fear. That third parts a bitch though aint it? ;) |
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Nov 13 2007, 11:41 PM
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#57
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I actually took out a paragraph in that post about how, because of my distaste of the Fear power and anything that wrests control of the character from the player, that I tend to play high Will characters, regardless of the system. I think things that deprive players of their characters are poor design, because playing their characters are all that players get to do. I mean, that's why they show up. That's why I show up. And if the system includes stuff like that, then I'll of course avail myself of all the defenses the system includes to protect against it. But I still think its bad design. I don't think its necessary, I mean, you can run a game where the players don't lose control of their characters. I don't think it adds any fun to the game; players tend to be bored or frustrated when they lose their characters. If something isn't necessary and doesn't add anything, I think the next question is What's the point? It does add challenge, but there's no reward. You either get to control your character (which is what you get to do all the time anyway), or you get to not play for however long the system says you can't. A combat round in SR can be anywhere from 3 to 15 minutes. That's a long g-d time to be doing nothing at a game, a thing you go to for entertainment and fun. I would say that its a wildly disproportionate penalty for what little it adds, and that's what makes it poor design. |
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Nov 13 2007, 11:45 PM
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#58
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,173 Joined: 27-July 05 From: some backwater node Member No.: 7,520 |
It's really funny to read a post like that. "Oh, my character fears nothing, he's so badass, the devil shit his pants. No way someone scares him with magic"
Sure. I have no problem with my character beeing afraid and reduced to fleeing by magical means. Also, it's funny how often "beeing a little bitch" and suffering from fear is put on the same level. Nice self-esteem issues in the air :D Keep this going, pure gold. Seriously thou. Fluff says Critters with Fear Power are used as security critters that stop.ever.single.intruder. That's why they are used in the first place. Now the rules support this very strongly, no big chance of averting the effect, just diminishing it's duration. Great. Enter the "little bitch" Faction: ooooooh, that's so unfair, the stops-all security critter actually stopped my Iron-Guts-Fears-no-One character. That's so unfair. *whine* But let's have a look at the Real Men™ Faction: dang, Fear gets me for x rounds. K, I'm getting straight out of Dodge, our plan sucked anyways. Next time let's kind of avoid the Hell Hounds. :spin: Still having fun, thou. :D |
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Nov 13 2007, 11:58 PM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
Yup. Magic cares how badass you *actually* are, and the bad-ass nature of a hero is measured by their WIL stat. If you are a spineless coward who doesn't stand for anything, and you're up against magic, then it won't matter how fast or strong you are. If you have WIL like Nathan Hale, Martin Luther King Jr., Molly Millions, or Mahatma Ghandi, then you pwn against Fear attacks. The mage spent a Complex Action casting Fear; he fails to affect you; you geek him. (Well, not if you're Ghandi.) Jules Winnfield and Vincent Vega in "Pulp Fiction" were both gunmen, and good enough to be pros, but by my standard, Jules was a badass and Vincent was not. |
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Nov 14 2007, 12:04 AM
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#60
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Don't forget that after you get to safety and take a few moments (a few Combat Turns is generally <15 seconds to the character) to get it together you send a drone up to dust the critter. Machines have nothing to worry about from fear. Hell, if you keep your drone(s) on point, it may get the critter before it ever has a chance to use its power. |
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Nov 14 2007, 12:17 AM
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#61
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Man Behind the Curtain Group: Admin Posts: 14,873 Joined: 2-July 89 From: End of the Yellow-Brick Road Member No.: 3 |
It really breaks the paradigm from most other abilities. - Resisted with one attribute, no other defenses possible - Continues its magical effect after the creator is dead/banished. I definitely agree with a fear power, just believe the implementation is slightly broken. |
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Nov 14 2007, 12:18 AM
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#62
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Target Group: Members Posts: 91 Joined: 24-September 07 Member No.: 13,404 |
Hmm, so is 15 exploding dice to resist fear (19 if I can include countermagic), sufficiently badass?
I'm having trouble thinking of how it can be scaled up much further, and it still crumples in the face of the spirits I'll be able to summon after about 20 more karma. |
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Nov 14 2007, 12:23 AM
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#63
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Sure, but if there are multiple enemy critters with Fear, you might run out of edge really quick. |
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Nov 14 2007, 12:52 AM
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#64
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I thought I did a pretty good job of explaining why I thought taking player control from characters was poor design, but if it seemed like whining I'll take another swing. It seems like the best case scenario of those powers are either 1) Players are Bored or Frustrated, or 2) Players are Unaffected. To put another way: If the power doesn't work, nothing happens. If the power does work, the game is less fun for the player. I don't see the upside. It doesn't really make the game more challenging, it makes the player stop playing. That might make the game more challenging for the other players, and it might make the game more challenging for that player when he gets back but for the duration that player is not a player, he's just taking up space. (Granted, some players are just taking up space all the time anyway, but I think any argument breaks down if you base it around them.) The way you can tell mental control is poor design is we hardly ever use it. If a GM does use it a lot, every character is built to be as resistant to it as possible within the system. Its going to come up as little as possible because its not much fun. In a game that people play to have fun, if something is not fun, I really have to question why its there at all, and if I can do without it. Making the game more fun doesn't mean making it less challenging. Games that aren't difficult aren't fun, they're boring. Difficulty is fun; challenge is a big part of why we play. (Or its a big part of why I play.) Not playing is what's not fun. Getting killed from damage is another way to not play, but it is much more difficult to get dropped from damage. The way I see it, the Not Fun result of combat-- dying-- must be pretty close to perfectly balanced with how hard it is to implement it, because we use combat all the time. The risk/reward ratio with combat must be pretty good. We risk losing our characters, but we are rewarded by having fun playing the game. With Fear-- since that's the meeting we're having-- the risk (not playing) is not commesurate with the reward (there isn't one). That's poor design. To put another way, if I'm running a game for four hours every other week, and my friends are taking time to come play that game, then the one thing I should do as a GM is make sure that they get to play the game. The players may not be wild about what happens in the game, but I think the one thing that should be able to reasonably count on is that they will be able to play their characters. Even if their characters get dropped in combat, they will get to make the decisions that lead to that result. In fact, you can have a lot of fun in games getting killed. Players don't have to win to have fun. But they do have to play. |
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Nov 14 2007, 01:25 AM
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#65
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,398 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
This bit about 'coming to play' doesn't make sense to me, particularly where it is deemed preferable to die than to be 'Fear'ed.
So, player X has come to play, and doesn't want things to happen that take away his play time. So let's remove Fear and Paralyzing Howl and their ilk. And since dying takes you out of play longer than Fear does, let's get rid of that possibility. I mean, it would suck to be building a new PC while the rest were still playing, right? Eventually the player who 'came to play' may see that having a run go bad and not make any money is not getting to play, as buying new toys in between runs is part of the play and the character, after all, isn't in the shadows to lose money. So let's make sure the team always gets paid. Lots, too. Sounds like Living City to me. |
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 Nov 14 2007, 01:42 AM
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#66
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,173 Joined: 27-July 05 From: some backwater node Member No.: 7,520 |
Enter a reasonable GM: Ok, your character just got feared. Act accordingly. Player still in control, just choices narrowed down. But silly me, I'm just ignoring your carefully worded arguments :)
Once, in Deadlands, I had most fun with my Character, who was Harrowed(kind of undead) and the evil spirit in his head was in control. I still got to play him, just now I played a demon pretending to be my character reasonably hindering the progress of the other players. Unfortunatly they were too guns blazing to notice. They didn't even notice I died and came back. But I digress.
Fun is in the hands of the GM. Fear does not take away your character, the GM does. I have no idea how long you have been playing whatever, but in time you learn to deal with trouble and have fun in impossible situations. Just a matter of how you approach them. Problem is, where you see dark, I see light. Or so it seems. Hope you got a flashlight. ;) btw, still having fun. :spin: |
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Nov 14 2007, 01:55 AM
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#67
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...usually though it just comes down to the idiot dice which decides who stays & who leaves.
Was running in a small group of players (2). Had both the Short One (#54) and Violet (#55). Uh oh it's Shedim, make a Willpower test. KK, having been pretty much used to life on the streets since she was 13 and trained to deal with such threats fails and runs off. Meanwhile The 45 kilo weakling matrix specialist who lived a good part of her life sheltered in a corp enclave, makes her roll and stands fast. ...don't make much sense. ...oh & thank the great mother for the Mage on the team. |
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Nov 14 2007, 02:06 AM
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#68
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I love Deadlands almost as much as Shadowrun. :) |
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Nov 14 2007, 02:07 AM
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#69
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
And, of course, the rules of the game. The Fear power specifies what you do ("The victim will race in panic for the nearest point of apparent safety, and will not stop until he is out of sight and a safe distance away.") and how long you do it, and requires another roll to come back and face the creature after the power has worn off. Unless of course your definition of a "reasonable GM" is one who ignores the Fear power as it is written, and subsitutes a more balanced house rule. In that case, I agree wholeheartedly, because correcting poorly designed rules is what being a reasonable GM is all about. |
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Nov 14 2007, 02:13 AM
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#70
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
You can't really make an argument based on the randomness factor of the dice. This comes up in EVERY aspect of the game, not just for Fear-related tests.
You'll notice that the GM isn't the one that decides where the 'apparent safety' zone is going to be - that's the discretion of the character. And since the player makes the choices for the character... |
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Nov 14 2007, 02:58 AM
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#71
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
All right HappyDaze, that's a fair point. But if I were playing in your game and a barghest Feared me, and as a player it'd be acceptable if I said, "Well, the barghest is basically a dog right? So, I'm safe as long as I'm not currently in his mouth. So I'll stay where I am, close my eyes and I'll blindfire at it"? I mean, the power pretty much defines what you do and for how long, and whether or not you get to come back.
Now granted, the SR version of Fear isn't as punishing as the D&D version (and perhaps some of my vehemence against SR Fear is misplaced agression towards D&D), but then D&D sucks pretty hard and SR is a pretty good system. |
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Nov 14 2007, 03:43 AM
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#72
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
I think my biggest problem with the Fear power, as currently implemented, is that almost any character is at a disadvantage when resisting it. Also, there is little that can be done to improve a character's chances. A veteran runner is about as likely to run away as a character straight out of char-gen. There aren't usually any effective precautions you can take against it. And I agree with mercer that it detracts from gameplay, and is poorly designed.
Actually, just one of those flaws, I could live with. Not everything the runners encounter will give them a sporting chance - neurostun, a security mage behind one-way glass, etc. And things happen to take a player temporarily out of the game - whether it be death, capture, mind control, or so on. But combining the two can be cheesy and aggravating, and shouldn't be the case for something as (relatively) commonly encountered as the Fear power. |
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Nov 14 2007, 04:01 AM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 7-October 07 Member No.: 13,604 |
It's not simply fear this works with. I was in a BESM game and completely derailed the game by destroying some controls in frustration. The GM, trying to get the game back on track, has me captured by the enemy faction and replaced by nanobots. He then tells me these nanobots have given me a feeling of X and Y, now go do your thing. I have to say that taking on the controlled character was about as awesome as playing the character in the first place. |
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Nov 14 2007, 04:07 AM
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#74
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
So to sum up, the three big arguments are:
Powers that take away the character's free will are no fun. Absolutely true. Also, dying and having to make new characters is no fun (and also takes away the characters options, for an even longer time). Like everything else, GM needs to exercise discretion on how often, and how badly to screw over the players. I don't ambush players with snipers on the rooftops all the time or constantly boobytrap their cars, because telling a PC "Surprise! your head just exploded - Roll to resist 11P with 8 successes, twice" only pisses people off. In the same way, I'd try to not mind-screw the PCs too often - just often enough for them to be paranoid about it happening again. Also, doing away with Fear implies I also need to eliminate Control Thoughts, Control Actions, Possession, Turn to Goo, and all the other things that prevent a character from acting. The mechanics of the Fear power make it too powerful. I somewhat agree with this one. From my perspective, all magic in SR4 is a bit overpowered: spirits, spellcasting, you name it. (Which is why background counts and wards are ubiquitous in my world.) The Fear power is only slightly more so because you can't defend with spell defense - something people can't do anyway unless there's a friendly mage around. To some degree this is balanced out by the non-lethal nature of the power. If an opponent had the drop on you, would you rather be forced to run away for 30 seconds, or would you prefer to take an over-casted mana bolt? I personally would choose the attack that let me live to fight another day. Still, it might be necessary to tone Fear down a little so that it's not quite as overpowering. Some people in this thread have already made excellent suggestions on that score. What have I left out? |
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Nov 14 2007, 06:38 AM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
What if "flee until apparent safety" is the effect on NPCs, and PCs get "you can take any action, but you are afraid, and actions inconsistent with fear will result in penalties to both DP and Karma"?
See the thread about effects of social skills such as Intimidation on PCs, especially PC vs. PC. Uncreatively played PCs will act just like NPCs. Creatively played PCs may step back and create a barrier (smoke, flame, Wall of Meat, etc.); or go invisible, if they know the spell; or do a full-defense parry with their melee weapon (for a trained kendoka/fencer/shockrodder/etc., that might be the "reflexive" response to fear). They might also try bargaining or pleading for their life. |
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