 Book Club: Emergence |
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 Nov 27 2007, 06:12 PM
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#51
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185  |
That's not entirely correct. Throughout the book Butch is also quite vocal in her mistrust of technomancers, their origin, and who ultimately pulls their strings - her positions slightly more moderate than Clockwork's but she voices many of the same concerns. A handful of other jackpointers including Slamm-O and Hard-Exit also voice their skepticism and concerns about different aspects of technomancer emergence and their abilities, and the scales would probably tip during the H-K incident if Jackpointers didn't become suspicious of the black and white spin on the breakout. I'd second Demonseed's question on what exactly makes Clockwork a "straw man" - as I understand it the expression describes someone whose opinions are unfounded and hence easy to refute or knock down. Regardless of his actions, not many (if any) of his points have been clearly been refuted or countered. |
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Nov 27 2007, 06:41 PM
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#52
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Absolutely. And while I did technically quit working for Catalyst on the grounds that I was in Medical School and couldn't aford the headspace to be writing for a publisher and would not be able to for years, it's important to note that had I not quit I would have been fired. Or rather, "not utilized for future projects" which is pretty much the same thing for a freelance writer. One is entitled to wonder just what the hell Ancient History thinks he is doing.
Through the book, the author's POV never really deviates from the fact that Technomancers are people too. Hell, they are playable characters, and you wouldn't forget that for a second reading through Emergeance. Now, my own copy is some nine time zones away so I can't give direct quotes - but the feeling is certainly that Clockwork is an "over-the-top-player-hater and he's wrong." Partway through the book I just skimmed past anythig Clockwork had to say because it was dumb. And that's basically inevitable. Any time the game presents a Player Character Option, anyone in the world who is predjudiced against them is a red dot. Before they've done anything they have been cast as the antagonist. The people who hate Spontaneous Magic Users in Iron Kingdoms don't "have a point" - they are the enemy. Casting someone who hates the PCs a priori as anything less than a charicature of a villain is severely uphill battle, and I'm sorry to say that in this instance you did not succeed. --- Part of this of course is the result of the natural limitations of the rules. Technomancers don't really do anything special so having people be afraid of them comes off as ignorant and inane. Emergeance could have mitigated that somewhat by introducing stories of Resonance Threats and then have people woried about how they couldn't tell them apart from the so-called "normal" technomancers. Then you could have had Clockwork chime in with the extreme viewpoint that actually there was no difference and that the supposedly normal technomancers just hadn't started mind-hacking children to death yet. It would still have been factually incorrect from where the readers (Players and Game Masters) are coming, but at least there would be a continuous logic available to follow. Everyone could agree that some technomancers were kill-on-sight evil and as a result the standpoint that killing them all "to be safe" would have some merit. As it is, no technomancers are really portrayed as constitutively dangerous, villainous, or even special. As a result the observer is gifted with the knowledge that everything which comes out of Clockwork's datajack is false even before he starts typing. -Frank |
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Nov 27 2007, 07:09 PM
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#53
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
My mistake. When I saw company employees repeatedly making posts about how great their company's products are, I thought it was spam. |
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Nov 27 2007, 07:15 PM
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#54
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Well, replace "contracted freelance writer" for "employee" and you're getting warmer. |
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Nov 27 2007, 07:40 PM
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#55
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Usually spam doesn't invite the customer base to post their own feedback/opinions. AH is trying to get conversation started, I believe, and posting his own opinions. Have you ever been to a book reading? Authors often do share their opinions on material they have written.
Frank's point above on prejudicing a player option is interesting. You could replace "technomancer" with "metahuman" in that theory and I still think it would be an interesting point. But that brings up another question. People have posted here saying that the writers should be able to present realistic prejudice against metahumans in the writing, but Frank's post basically says that would be extremely difficult to do. If anything, metahumans are less "special" than technomancers and are also a player option. |
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Nov 27 2007, 07:53 PM
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#56
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
True, but when someone says, in character, "Trolls are stupid" you, as a player, can't necessarily open the book and point to a rule and prove them wrong in your mind. (or maybe you can, we still argue about this) When someone says "Orks breed too fast and will eventually squeeze out the rest of metahumanity" you don't find a rule or concrete fluff in the book that says Orks have less babies than anyone else. When someone says "Technomancers will make your brain explode" you can look in the rule book and see that no, in fact, they can not do that (at least not in any way not already available to hackers), and safely dismiss whoever said it as a raving idiot. It's a lot easier to write realistic bigotry when there is at least some vague support in the rules, or at least a lack of direct contradiction. |
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Nov 27 2007, 07:57 PM
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#57
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the prejudice presented in Emergence is the most realistic depiction of prejudice i've yet seen in any SR material. now, that's not saying very much, and i don't feel that the depiction in Emergence was all that awesome, but it was a lot better than anything that's come before.
i'm assuming everyone reading and posting in this thread has read the book, so i'm not going to bother with spoiler tags. what would have made the prejudice in Emergence good, i think, would have been if Netkat had turned out to be the bad guy. if, instead of Clockwork going after Netkat in an ethically questionable manner, Netkat had gone after him. because the key to injecting realistic prejudice into fictional material is to provide believable reasons for that prejudice to exist. believable reasons, reasons that the players can believe, not just reasons that the players can find reasonable. if Netkat--the supposed damsel in distress, in this scenario--had made an unprovoked attack on Clockwork, a) she'd have no longer been the innocent victim, and b) she'd have shown in a much more visceral manner why technomancers are so feared. for all that Emergence showed a much better picture of prejudice than previous material, Netkat is still the good guy and Clockwork is still the bad guy. show me some shades of grey. |
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Nov 27 2007, 07:58 PM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727 |
I talk your talk, demonseed elite.
Cheers, Max |
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Nov 27 2007, 08:01 PM
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#59
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Yes, that would've been awesome. It could still be followed by other shadowtalkers trying to say something like "now now, just 'cause Netkat turned out to be a psycho doesn't mean all technomancers are bad", but then there'd be a lot more of a "yeah, right" feel to that, as opposed to an unassailable moral high ground. |
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Nov 28 2007, 03:51 AM
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#60
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
I'd agree with that. And as mfb said, it's really no different than what happened with changelings, or the humanic policlub for that matter. By and large, most of the shadow posters get pretty irate with the bigots and give them a lot of crap. I would have been happied if say Slamm-O was the one coming down hard on the technomancers. Now, seeing Clockwork in later books being perfectly normal makes things a little better for me, but not a whole lot, since the Clockwork hate that was exhibited by other posters in Emergence doesn't show up in his posts in Augmentation.Also as mfb said, Netkat being the 'innocent target/damsel in distress' comes off weak to me as well. It may be simply because I don't ever recall seeing these characters before, so they sem type cast to me. But that may just be me missing them from previous works. With clockwork, in the first part of this section at least, it isn't too bad. But little things like "...to use these freaks..." it just seems to blatant and lazy. I mean, can't they even come up with a decent derogatory term? Is "freaks"the lazy label people use for whatever the generic target of dislike is? Wouldn't a metahuman who's the target of racism use something other than what he's called on a regular basis? I did like the shadowtalk in the Newsblitz section though. Those posters getting caught up in the hype and crazy goings-ons was more interesting to me. The lone star cop and the messenger on page 59 give more believable reasons IMO for having issues with technomancers, and with a more reasonable approach. Now I know the witch hunt section especailly is supposed to be more a focus on the media creating this witch hunt because of the interests behind it. On that angle, I think it does a decent job. It's the shadowy side that falls a bit short. I do really like the little black text boxes that are showing up regualrly in the new books, and are all over the place in this chapter. Those little clips always have great stuff. |
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Nov 28 2007, 07:40 AM
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#61
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's a good point. Clockwork may or may not be a strawman, but one of the things that makes him seem like a strawman is that nobody's ever heard of him. his opinion carries no weight because he's a nobody. if Slamm-O, or someone else familiar, shows really strong anti-whatever prejudice, that means something and makes it real. |
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Nov 28 2007, 09:47 AM
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#62
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Ancient has been trying to establish a dialog with the readers, one that could (possibly) also afford us (the writers) the benefit of explaining ourselves and getting some non-kneejerk feedback from those who've taken the time to read the book and let it sink in (rather than off-the-cuff reviews - positive and negative - that often follow a new release). Personally, I find this kind of constructive feedback both instructive and enlightening and its the sort of thing I like to see on official forums - so I'm all for it. The fact that he has chosen to post his opinions on what he likes (and dislikes) is any author's perrogative. I know Demonseed, myself and other writers have done so on these forums on previous ocasions. That said Ancient comments has been open to feedback both positive and negative, non-abrassive, respectful, and most importantly constructive and professional even when people disagree with him. As Demonseed pointed out an author actively offering opinions on his work (cooperative or not) is quite common practice at book readings and conferences. Since this post is clearly labelled "Book Club: Emergence" and not "Emergence reviews" the intent of such a thread seems pretty obvious.
Not sure what you mean here, since the closest you have to an author's POV during the first half of the book is Sunshine's and he doesn't know what the heck he's dealing with. Additionally Jackpoint's resident medical expert, Butch, is one of the voices that sides with Clockwork from early on. Contrary to what seems to be the overarching perception here, others voice anti-technomancer stances too. The shift between the way the Jackpoint community percieves technomancers and the way Sixth World society does only really begins when some Jackpointers become suspicious of what really happened at the Queen Elizabeth hospital and when Patient Vs story comes out. That said the careful I will note that while attitudes change and the pro-technomancer side gains strength/finds vindication - the fact is that many of the fears and concerns regarding what truly lies behind Technomancer abilities aren't actually answered - and for all the Sixth World and the reader knows you may yet finding out somewhere down the line that technomancers are indeed a different type of Deus node, that their mutations are not environmental but carefully directed by some other intelligence, that technomancers are indeed capable of "brainhacking," etc... That someone assumes we wouldn't follow any of these ideas because it would complete change the nature of a playable "character type" is a self-imposed preconception as far as I'm concerned.
All I have to say to that is that despite his actions and his rhetoric, very few of Clockwork's points are ever refuted. You advocate that the setting restrict itself to what is in fact metagame knowledge when there's no reason to - to the inhabitants of the Sixth World technomancers and the nature of their abilities remain largely unknown quantities. If you choose to discard the context in which Clockwork's posts occurs because it doesn't match your understanding of the setting, that is your perrogative. In terms of canon though, the warnings and prejudice voiced by Clockwork are in fact contextually justified. I will again reiterate that though the (basic) rules may dictate certain limitations that the characters that populate the setting are unaware of, not even the readers know what the true potential of technomancers will turn out to be... and how many of the suspicions and fears voiced by Clockwork and Butch may actually turn out to be true.
Seriously? To me it just made it more tragic that people's fear are apparently groundless - though to be perfectly honest by the end of Emergence it's still an open question as to whether those fears may actually be founded. The fundamental questions about the true origin of technomancers, the nature of their mutation, the forces behind it, and whether or not they might be unwitting pawns of something else remain entirely unanswered... (And if you assume we are averse to exploring the darker possibilities openned by any of those questions, simply because technomancers are a player character option, you've got another think coming).
I recognize that SR4 could have provided in-game context to technomancers that would have changed significantly the way Emergence was recieved by people. That said, this book is about media-fueled prejudice and how society copes (or not) when salt is rubbed into a raw wound (ie. not very well), as much as the obstacles and bigotry faced by technomancer and AI emergence into mainstream society.
So your overall point is that Clockwork is a "metagame straw man." Unsurprisingly I disagree. I've mentioned previously that many of Clockwork's and Butch's reservations and points regarding the true danger technomancers (and AIs) might pose go unanswered and are conveniently overlooked when opinions seem to swing the other way... For all you know one or more of those points may prove to be true. All I will say is that there are reasons for the creation of ARM. |
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Nov 28 2007, 02:08 PM
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#63
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
As usual mfb makes some interesting points... to which I would just ask: if Clockwork's actions against Netcat hadn't been backtracked to him, would the situation have been less black and white?
Actually that can be attributed to Clockwork keeping a low profile for a while rather, than people chasing him down to pick on him. I think you'll find at least one instance of Fastjack warning him off in Augmentation. |
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Nov 28 2007, 04:45 PM
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#64
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the situation started out black and white, because TMs are a playable character type. hell, the situation is black and white--in a right and just world, TMs would not be hated (except by otaku fans like me). if you as an author want them to be hated, and want your reader to buy into that hate, you have to sell it. and you want your readers to buy into it because otherwise, it's all just black and white--people who hate TMs will be bad, and people who like TMs will be good. booooooring. Clockwork did nothing to sell that hate; his input merely reinforced the black-and-white division inherent in the situation. attacking Netkat was just the icing on the cake. |
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Nov 28 2007, 08:15 PM
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#65
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
The argument whereas the situation is black and white because technomancers are a player character type is the root problem to me here (and with Frank's post above). Basically it assumes that there should be some inherent bias/sympathy/identification with the technomancer side of the issue on the part of writers and developers simply because there are technomancer players out there.
I can understand reader's bias (even were it only based on the fact that in a just world the kind of prejudice manifest in Emergence shouldn't happen) and I'll admit that I may have underestimated the pro-technomancer bias amongst readers and hence the emphasis needed for them to buy into the mistrust, doubt and prejudice that seems natural in the setting given the circumstances (not only during Emergence but dating back to the Crash2.0). This may be because, while I can't speak for my writers, I know I have no such bias and no such consideration was given as a guideline to Emergence writers - in fact quite the contrary, guidelines were to paint technomancers in all shades of gray (hence the technomancer-based smuggling op in Europort, the TM identity thief, the gilted guy who accidentally kills his former lover, Liu Phiang/ROM#138's play for sympathy, and Patient V's admission that he doesn't know if he's dangerous or not). I feel obliged to add, and speaking strictly theoretically for a moment, that I have no problem with technomancers (PCs and NPCs) discovering somewhere down the line that they've had Deus Code running in their subconscious all this time and that they're all upgraded Nodes - as long as it suits the SR storyline. I have no problem were Unwired to say that a huge percentage of technomancers do actually suffer from AIPS and are mentally unstable or saying that their need for ambient wireless is actually an addiction that makes them potentially dangerous and unreliable chipheads. And I have no problem with developing some future plot which hinges on technomancers' biological commlinks making them vulnerable to being puppeteered/rigged by some AI menace from the Matrix or a Resonance Threat. All of these developments would certainly impact technomancer PCs, but as a developer I'll run with them if I feel they're cool for the setting and the overall story was worth telling. Note that all of the above are possibilities advanced by one or more of the Jackpoint's anti-TM faction in Emergence and by the end of the book none of them have been ruled out... That said, please note also, that I had a plot mapped out but never got round to pitching would have made put shamans through the wringer in SR3, and there's at least one idea I'm playing with that could still make the life of all magicians pretty complicated in the Seventies. I don't think we need to pull punches or show sympathy simply because player characters will be affected. I did think most of Clockwork's and Butch's initial points (before the H-K incident escalates matters) were actually well-grounded in the facts that were coming to light. It's not as if either of them goes off on rhetoric-filled hate-mongering, and most of their concerns are legitimate. I've got to say though, that I had not considered that they might not be selling their points to the reader (as opposed to other characters experiencing the same things) well enough, but that's something I'll keep in mind in rereading the book. (Strangely, the most positive feedback I've recieved on Emergence to date has been from players with technomancer characters who liked being thrown into the deep end.) |
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Nov 28 2007, 08:24 PM
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#66
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I think part of the problem is that we just don't know most of these dudes on Jackpoint, and therefore have no real vested interest in their fears and concerns. As was pointed out above, if you replaced Clockwork with Slamm-O, it would have dramatically increased the impact of his concerns, because we all know Slamm-O to some extent.
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Nov 28 2007, 08:26 PM
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#67
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Hmmm, I thought the point was that the argument asserts that there is an inherent bias/sympathy/identification with the technomancer side on the part of the reader, and thus the writers need to work extra hard to overcome that bias by consciously biasing against virtuakinetics somewhat, in order for it to come out as shades of gray to the reader. *shrug* All I know is that I walked away from those conversations clearly convinced that Clockwork was a "bad guy" and was wrong, and that the in character bias against technos was unfair. |
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Nov 28 2007, 08:59 PM
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#68
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, that's the thing--not having a bias is, in this case, a bias. your readership doesn't have a pro-TM bias; they view TMs as being just as capable of good and evil as any other character type. Clockwork has to fight that non-bias--he has to show us, the readers, that there is a legitimate reason to hate and fear TMs, that they're not just another character type, that they're malevolent or dangerous or both. let's say i sit down and talk with a neonazi or a member of the KKK, and they have to try to bring me over to their point of view--or at least make me seriously question my point of view. let's say for the sake of argument that i view Jewish people or black people or any ethnic/cultural group as being no different--no better, no worse--than any other ethnic/cultural group. is this neonazi or this KKK member going to view me as unbiased? no, they're going to view me as a Zionist sympathizer or a race traitor or whatever. to them, i'm not unbiased. to Clockwork, the readers of Emgergence are not unbiased.
consciously or not, i think the writers of Emergence considered it at least a little bit. the characterization of the anti-TM guys is much easier to relate to than previous material. partly, i think, that can be attributed to the fact that Clockwork is intended to be a recurring character, who can't just be thrown out at the end of the story, so y'all couldn't make him completely irredeemable. |
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Nov 28 2007, 09:14 PM
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#69
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
I'm all for that just as long as it's not some lame-ass Earthdawn rip. Polluted Astral can already be done with background count, but if I have to start having magicians dish out more karma to create spell matrixes... Well, it'll be a product I'd never buy. |
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Nov 28 2007, 11:53 PM
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#70
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Moon-Hawk and mfb have it exactly. We the readers are subject to priviledged information. We know specific technomancers can be "good guys" because they are player characters. In the KKK example, the reader starts off as a guy who has Blacks and/or Jews as friends. In order to sell the idea that TMs might be bad we'd have to introduce something that would genuinely make players wonder whether the technomancer was going to betray them.
Let's think about this in terms of the X-Men. We are the reader, so we get screen time with Cyclops. We see him dealing with his problems, we see him sleeping with the White Queen, we see him fighting evil, and we see him going through a draconic training regimen to make sure he never loses his glasses. We know that he's a sympathetic character because we see this part of the world. Now people who don't read the comics, but instead live in the world never hear about his secret agent escapades. They never see him fighting off alien invasions or destroying dangerous glaciers, or any of that crap. They just read in the paper one day that a dangerous mutant spontaneously shot red laser beams and destroyed his whole family and much of the town. And that dangerous mutant vanished and he could be anywhere. Do they have a reason to be afraid? Hellz yeah they do. But regardless of whether people in the world might make a very convincing argument that Cyclops is a dangerous mutie and should be hunted down - the reader is never going to buy that. Anyone making such an argument is an antagonist in the story. Because the reader has the priviledged information. Sure, you could pull some slight of hand where players start distrusting technomancers. But the point is that in Emergeance, you didn't. The players have the priviledged information that some technomancers are cocks and some are saints because it's their character and they can play them however they want. So Clockwork is just an antagonist and nothing ever changes that. -Frank |
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Nov 29 2007, 05:42 AM
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#71
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
All of which is further aggravated by that "oh, and pretend it's been like this forever" thing I keep mentioning. If we were supposed to be scared of and hateful towards Technomancers, why wasn't anything of the sort mentioned in the core SR4 book? The prejudice and fear all just feel sort of slapped on after the fact, which further detracts from the believability.
It'd be like (using Frank's example) hearing "Oh, and by the way, this dangerous mutie with the uncontrollable eyebeams has been around for five years, too, before we felt like telling you about him! Dangerous! Dangerous!" |
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Nov 29 2007, 07:28 AM
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#72
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I think this needs to be addressed specifically. It's really obviously not strange that this would be the case. You can seriously figure that this would be the case from first principals alone without even reading the book. Let's just take a step back and consider some basic axioms:
So let's think about this from the standpoint of "We're about to write a book that makes Character Type X into X-Men":
So basically you just said that the most positive reviews you had seen were from the demographic who was structurally guaranteed to have the most favorable reaction to the book. That in and of itself is a virtually meaningless statement. The fact that you said it was surprising is actually pretty scary. -Frank |
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Nov 29 2007, 09:59 AM
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#73
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
I disagree regarding several points in your reasonsing. In the section above, it's your final point. A campaign which tells players whose characers are directly affected that they are now demonized by the vast majority of the world media and population is by no means guaranteed to be well-liked, or that the campaign book that brings it about si going to be liked.
I could have been clearer; let me rephrase my statement: "Strangely, most of the positive feedback I've recieved on Emergence to date has been from players with technomancer characters and all of it indicated they liked their characters being thrown into the deep end." I have yet to recieve a comment from a technomancer player who didn't like Emergence and who disliked or thought the portrayal of prejudice in the book was two dimensional (including Clockwork's). |
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Nov 29 2007, 10:38 AM
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#74
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Peter, I thought you spoke English as a native language. What the hell is this? I never said that something which affects player characters is going to be well-liked. I said that people who play the characters affected by a book are going to feel stronger about it. So some players will like it, other players won't, but the players who like and hate it the most will be the ones directly impacted. That's a tautology near as makes no odds, so your disagreement involves you either not reading my points or you being senselessly contrary.
This is not strange! The demographic that is going to like this product the most are the players of technomancers who like their characters being thrown into the deep end. Why? Because it's a ]fucking book about technomancers being thrown into the deep end! What you've just said is "The demographic which has given me the most positive feedback is the demographic which likes the book the most!" Well, sorry to be rude but: no shit? What you have shown here is absolutely nothing. And you repeated it so horrifyingly enough I don't think you actually understand how completely meaningless that statement really is. What it does not tell us, which would of course be the important part: How big is the demographic which liked the product the most? How big is the demographic which liked it the least? I don't know, because I haven't done any market research. And it's obvious that you don't know either because you're holding onto circular definitions of approval like it means a god damned thing.
How does that even work? I don't work for the company and wasn't involved in the project and I've gotten comments which fit those descriptions. Hell, we've had those comments right here on this thread. But comments of that sort don't really indicate much. We know a priori that some players of technomancers didn't sign on to be X-Men because they weren't written up as X-Men in the basic book. These players fit a demographic which is predisposed to dislike Emergeance. We know that some players like to have enemies that they can fight against, so making their technomancer characters into X-Men who therefore have enemies that they can fight against endlessly puts them solidly into a demographic predisposed to like the product. What we don't know is how many people fall into either category. And by "we" I mean both me and you. -Frank |
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Nov 29 2007, 12:06 PM
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#75
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Frank, I have no intent on arguing style and grammar with you, the point in question reads:
I took the "even more so" in that point to be a follow-through on "will tend to like the book" in the previous point given the absence of any additional positive or negative qualifer, verb, and given the phrasing of the previous elements of the list. The previous entries on your list are phrased positively ("will care more about...", and "to like the book...") hence no great leap in assuming the third point was intended to maintain consistency. There was no mention of "feeling stronger" or "some players will like it, other players won't".
You've misunderstood me or I have been unclear yet again. Let's try this again: Every single mail (admittedly only about 8) that I personally have recieved from players of technomancer characters has been uniformly positive about Emergence. And the point they've liked the most is that their characters have been thrown to the sharks and they liked that the world turned against their characters. The only complaints these comments featured were to the effect that Emergence should have followed right after the SR4 book.
You should reread my post. And I will note I have yet to see anyone identify themselves as a "technomancer player" in this thread. Catalyst recieves mails and reviews from fans, reviewers, and playtesters; so do I personally, my e-address is no secretand those are my sources. I stand by what I've said above. I've yet to recieve a comment from a "technomancer player" who didn't like Emergence and who didn't like the storyline it proposes - I have no doubt there are technomancer players out there who don't, but I've yet to hear from them. Given that we've been discussing the bias or lack of bias regarding technomancers one would think that the opinions of those who actually play them were relevant given they'd be a clearly biased opinion group. Of those few that mention Clockwork's prejudice, the metagame "straw man" that's been brought up here has never been mentioned and at least one specifically stated he disagreed with "what was being said on Dumpshock" (back when the book was released) and thought Clockwork was well done.
As I've said above. I've yet to recieve mails or feedback against that aspect of Emergence from a technomancer player. I've had complaints about the timing and the lack of build up in the SR4 book, but against the events in Emergence and their portrayal. I have seen several complaints from people who don't play or don't like technomancers, but from technomancer players no. Feel free to send any you have (other than your own) my way, I'm always interested in feedback. |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 6th December 2025 - 03:35 AM |
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