TrollTown: Land ownership in the Sixth World, Spun off from Do they belong thread Options

[Spike]

The concept of Land Ownership is an old one. Despite the long years of tradition behind it, however, it remains a somewhat controversial one as well. A stereotypical example of this debate is the old 'barb wire wars' of the American West, where Farmers and Cattlemen warred over wether or not the ranges were free, or if the farmer could lay claim to fallow feilds. Another is the traditional view of the nomadic tribes of Native Americans, who thought, as most Nomadic peoples do, that no one could 'own' land.

They have a point, of course. In Lone Wolf and Cub a Japanese saying was revealed to me. 'Half mat seated, full mat sleeping, fist full of rice." By thise they mean that no matter how powerful and rich a man is, he can only really claim the space he occupies and can only eat so much food.

But what does this all mean for Shadowrun? How is it relevant?

It is of paramount relavence for the Shadowrun setting. Consider: The NAN used, in addition to a successful guerilla war backed by magic, the idea that their 'lands' had been stolen from them and they were simply reclaiming what was theirs by right. This had a massive effect on the geopolitical landscape that, by rights, is still unsettled in the setting to some degree.

Yet, with equal relevance: The elves of the NA Tir took Oregon by force, pushing south to Mount Shasta, where, if I recall my lore correctly, Hestaby said 'um... no.', and ended their push for lands. Now, technically, the Tir is part of the NAN by virtue of the Salish-Shide council, but in reality, the Elves merely took land that didn't really belong to them, by virtue of force.

Now, as I stated in the 'Trolls' thread, we can go back endlessly through history and find all manner of people and nations that have lost 'their land' to some conquerer. By some lights the current Israeli/Palestinian conflict is unimportant if some group claiming descent from the Canaanite shows up and says 'Hey! It was ours FIRST', as absurd as it may be.

Now, from a purely practical standpoint, land only truly belongs, aside from legal fiction, to the people using it 'right now'. USING it, mind you. Simply owning it, and fencing it in, is not important.

This brings us to the truly relevant, rather than incidentally relevant, portion of the post.

Trolls.

Let us review the facts: Trolls are massive. On the order of twice as large as a big human or an average orc, though not quite twice as tall. They need, therefore, twice as much space to be remotely comfortable, their houses and even sidewalks must be twice as big. No one is providing these things for Trolls, not in any meaningful way.

Concurrently, there are also two massively lawless, ownerless chunks of real estate in the Seattle metroplex. You might know them as 'The barrens'.

True, the land IS occupied. But there are a lot of trolls out there, many of the already IN the barrens. And coincidentally, trolls are worth two or three times their numbers in a fight, possible more if limited to scavanged melee weapons and light pistols.

What happens when a hundred, maybe two hundred trolls stomp into a 'neighborhood' in the barrens and order everyone else out? What happens when they tear down existing structures and ruins and begin building 'troll sized' accomodations, businesses and infrastructure on a troll scale? Who is gonna stop them? You think the local street gangs will? Gangs are bullies, like any other opportunisitic predator they avoid fights they can't easily win. Organized Crime? Why? Why not cut a deal with the newly minted 'Trolltown', sell them building materials and other goods they can't easily get, barter for muscle.

It only takes one 'charismatic' visionary troll to put it together. One troll who is tired of cramped spaces and flimsy furniture. One troll who knows other trolls that work in those hard labor jobs like construction and the like who also are tired of living in a small world. And when it happens, how many other trolls, trolls that had heard of it but dismissed it, or who hadn't heard at all, are going to drift in and expand this 'Trolltown' until almost all of Seattle's 11,000 trolls are spending at least a part of their time in what was once viewed as unlivable shantytown lands, until you start seeing entire industries springing up, By Troll, For Troll (BytFot, the hot new fashion trend, specializing in 'Urban Trollwear'... in troll sized, and later in Humansize for all the troll rock fans out there...)...

Then the only question becomes: Why did it take 50 years to happen?

[Stahlseele]

*cause Trolls are supposed to be the minority by about only 1 to 10% or something . . having 99% to 90% of the rest of the World WILL stop such plans untill you get to the size of Dragons . . if the Dragons actually all acted together FOR ONCE . . they'd pretty much be an unbeatable force who could easyly overthrow governments and take over whole continents . . untill the rest of the world decides:"fuck it, where are the thor-shots, where are the rail-guns, where are the orbital laser guns?" In Seattle it would be the Star and Metroplex Guard and probably at least a token unit of most corp. security guards that would have to put their foot down and say HELL NO . . else? massive loss of face, people laughing about them, not taking them seriously, not FEARING them any more . . they simply can't afford that, 'cause that would lead to a state of civil war like existance. . urban riots and poli clubs closing in on their targets because:"hey, who should stop us? the star? they didn't even manage to stop some frigging dumb trolls from taking over some parts of town". .
As for the Charismatic Leader Figure . . Boom, the Troll who inherited a Nightclub(sadly in Boston) from Dunkelzahn because of his good work as his watcher/operator . . or Ultra, the Troll who won at least 1 Million NuYen in a Game Show i believe *g*

[mfb]

[Spike]

Stalhseele: there is a reason I put this notional Trolltown in the barrens. Nobody with real power CARES about the barrens. In fact, more than a few might actually welcome the mass migration of trolls to the area, might even appreciate the work they are putting into claiming the land, which is otherwise a blight and an embarrassement to the powers that be.

Why would the metroplex guard risk a battle against a large number of highly motivated trolls in the barrens? Never mind the logistical nightmare of moving troops and supplies in and out of the area. Trolls are only part of the problem at that point. An ironically small point, depending on how you run your 'barrens'.

[mfb]

see my edited post, above. the Guard, and Lone Star, would care because it would draw attention to the Barrens. places like the Barrens aren't something that governments are happy to have around, however useful they may be to certain sectors of the establishment. those in power are willing to let things slide--but only as long as those in the Barrens keep their heads down. the second the Barrens gets riled up, Lone Star's going to jump in and start swinging. and if that doesn't work, yeah, the Guard is next.

[Jaid]

[HappyDaze]

[FrankTrollman]

Shadowrun posits a setting where there is a lot of unoccupied land. Even in cities. The population is much the same as it is today, but a lot of people moved into arcologies. "Land" is virtually worthless. Less than worthless in a lot of instances because 1% of animal life has super powers. Firebreathing feral dogs and lightning shooting crows prowl the shattered remains of the horizontal metroplexes built in the days of subsidized fuel and tamed landscapes.

In the days of Shadowrun people flee from suburbs because their exposure and low population density make them dangerous. Dangerous because your town house could get attacked by invisible bears or filled with lifestealing balls of light and if you don't have sufficient neighbors noone will be there to save you. Population density is a form of protection - we're back to the days when the world was a scary place filled with leopards in the night.

And yeah, Trolls are big and scary. They get picked on by less para animals. They don't fit into cities well. As a people they feel less comfortable in crowds. They naturally gravitate to the countryside and they are better at homesteading than other races. It is entirley possible that in 200 years the trolls will have wandered off and claimed enough of the wildernes to be a major force.

They could well do something similar in areas of the barrens. Sometimes they do. But really there's no reason for them to do so in any organized fashion as a race. going off and claiming a portion of the barrens to build stuff on is pretty standard procedure. Noone is going to stop you because noone wants the plot of land you've chosen (at least, not until you build something on it).

-Frank

[Spike]

[Stahlseele]

funny how people seem to latch onto ONE thing (not even the reason) they think of as being wrong and forgetting all about the real reason why they will HAVE to act . . they can't afford NOT TO . . they don't NEED to atually CARE about ANYTHING . . they just NEED to save face with the rest of the City at least . . it would be against the law, the star is SUPPOSED to be the law(and are a bunch of racist bastards) . . If the DON'T step in, the next who try something like that will be the Ancients . . 'cause you can bet your purdy little elven mouth on the Spikes and Lord Torgo being all the way with the other Trolls on that, like the Disassemblers will too . . who in turn can't afford to lose face against the spikes . . and so on and so on and all because the star did not step in and stop the first bunch who tried . . By the way, if the reasoning were correct, there would not have been the corp. raid on el infierno and the corps would not have marched into east berlin and . . yadda yadda yadda . . enough of that . . i will now be going on my very own war against tiredness . .

[Spike]

[Spike]

[martindv]

[Jaid]

actually, a lot of the gangs out in the barrens basically *have* set up their own personal domain, with themselves being effectively the government. sure, you pay 'protection money' instead of 'taxes' and instead of police/military, you have groups of thugs driving around making sure no one else comes into their turf, there's no social services, but the gangs basically have carved out their own little kingdoms in the barrens before, and will likely continue to do so until someone else cares enough to go take it back.

i mean sure, the metropolitan guard *could* force them out. but unless they're gonna sit there and occupy that land indefinitely, someone is just gonna come right back in and start up the exact same thing all over again. it's a waste of time and money to bother stopping it, really.

[Riley37]

This works just fine as long as no one besides gangs loses out. Our hypothetical troll Moses would do well to reassure the corps and the AA neighborhoods that she only intends changes in the Barrens. Trolls kick ass in melee and small-arms fights; not so well against airdropped napalm.

The best opportunity to bust the move is when a section of territory is in transition for other reasons, eg a go-gang gets decimated when they mistakenly attack a heavily-armed Ares convoy, they limp back to base, and the competitors to take over their base area include Trolls United.

[FrankTrollman]

While it seems that people are gravitating to the Treasure Hunters option, I am still perfectly willing to run a game based on seizing portions of a city in the upcoming online game I'm running (discussed Here.). The thing about Trolls is that the reason that they gravitate to the wilderness is the same reason that troll centric settlements are rare: trolls don't like crowds.

The worst thing you can do to a human is solitary confinement. It causes them brain damage and depression. Humans need social contact or their health suffers. Elves, orks, and even dwarfs are like that too. Trolls are not. Trolls can take or leave social contact. It's useful, it makes sense to do it from an economic standpoint. But trolls don't have the same biological need for constant interaction with other sapients that other metahumans have.

They aren't as off the scale as dragons (who outright become uneasy when exposed to social contact), but trolls are not well suited to making social frameworks because they don't have a biological imperative to do so. The reason they are often seen as hangers on to orkish society is that orks are very sociable and actively seek out other orks and trolls. Trolls don't usually think of finding social interaction on a moment by moment basis, orks do. So the social interactions trolls have are quite frequently initiated by orks.

-Frank

[Spike]

Frank: That sounds like a very interesting extrapolation of why trolls don't like crowds, but is is supported?

My understanding would be that they don't like crowds, not because they don't socialize much (though here, the low Charisma would be 'explained' quite neatly, I must admit), but because they don't FIT. The size thing. A troll in a crowd is a threat to everyone in it, purely by virtue of his size and relative clumsiness. Further, I'd suggest his 'comfort zone' is going to be much larger than the cultural average, meaning that, much like an american in, say, the Middle east, he finds other people get 'too close' for his personal comfort. It may be irrational subconcious behavior (however, reverse extrapolation, a troll from a close culture, like the Middle East, may find his personal comfort zone very neatly matched by pink Americans, and that American Trolls tend to stand too far away...)

In our day and age, I'd suggest that the Troll/crowd situation is a lawsuit waiting to happen, but I suspect its quite different in the sixth world.

[Paradigm]

[FrankTrollman]

[kzt]

[Spike]

[hyzmarca]

The polarizing effect of obvious organized troll settlements is enough reason to allow it, particularly in the case of those politicians who base their platforms on racial enmity. In other to effectively control a group, you need an "other" an irredeemably evil outsider what wants to destroy everything you know and love. There are plenty of good "others" out there including Arabs, Hispanic immigrants, Free Blacks, Jews, Liberals, Corporations, Homosexuals. Of course, Black politicians get to use on Whites and Cops as their others.

The thing is that if you are a politician then you must pick something to hate. Usually, you must pick many somethings to hate. The idea is to pick things that most voters hate.

Homosexuals is a good one. Most voters hate Homosexuals. Arabs is a no-brainer. Everybody hates Arabs, these days. But after those two it becomes a real struggle to pick the right groups. Sometimes, you have to go out of your way to ferment hatred to give yourself an edge.


Now, a troll takeover of the Barrens will produce enough paranoia to catapult the politicians who hate trolls (and that would statistically be most of them, simply because hating trolls is the same no-brainer in the Sixth World that hating homosexuals is today). So, the "troll menace" will allow politicians to court the "We Hate Trolls" vote even more readily.

[mfb]

[hyzmarca]

If we have learned nothing from the second World War, it is that displaced people take up much less space if you cremate them.

[Paradigm]

After everything that's happened in the world since the awakening, I can imagine how people would get a bit antsy if a group of a certain metatype were to start separating themselves from society totally. The low intensity warfare in the barrens is one thing, after all, they're just the drags of society and too unruly to do anything about. But I think that the idea of a stable small troll city in the barrens would not appeal to a lot of people.

Aside from the political hatemongers, it's not hard to see how Humanis and the likes would start comissioning runs against the settlement. Metas in the slums are one thing, but metas setting up their own society can't be a good thing. Just look around the world, we have Tir na Nog, Tir Tairngire and other meta kingdoms would they really allow a 'Tir Troll' to go unmolested?

Then there's of course the corps, would be very hard to consider how they'd react. Some might be opposed to the idea, others might welcome the project as a good place to market that new troll line of clothing in a specialty store. As long as there'd be no threat to corporate interest, they'd more likely than not just try to exploit the situation.

Organised crime might find it a bit hard to really get a foothold, as a lot of the set syndicates aren't the most meta friendly. Regardless, there'd likely be some vying for influence over the 'locals' between the various syndicates, as there's a profit to be made in any enclave of civilisation, trolls have their vices, same as normal people.

EDIT: forgot the local government.. it'd be something for a large part out of their control, in their territory. This most likely wouldn't sit well in any case, but probably even less well than it otherwise might because of the friction between Seattle and the UCAS, in which both these groups would actively try to stop anything that'd diminish their control.

This post has been edited by Paradigm: Nov 17 2007, 01:25 AM