Target Number Modifiers, How bad can it get? Options

[RedmondLarry]

Last night in a fight
I fired my weapon at extreme range (TN 9)
with my 6 boxes physical (+3)
and my 6 boxes stun (+3)
While astrally perceiving (+2)
and maintaining 3 spells (+6)
I ran over difficult ground (+6)
to where I was behind 75% cover (+3)
with 5 melee or blocking opponents within 1 meter (+10)
against a target who had run (+2)
while invisible (+8 )
and concealed by a spirit (+6)
and in complete darkness (+8 )
to behind a car providing 75% cover (+6)
whose exhaust covered him in heavy smoke (+6)
but whose headlights glared at me (+2)
so I made a called shot (+4)
even though I had to default to attribute (+4)
to fire my vindicator minigun's
15 shots with no recoil comp (+30)
though dwarf am I with heavy weapon (+4)
in my off hand (+4)
while confused by a spirit (+6)
in a Chaotic World Spell (+6)
facing a Flash-Pak (+4)
after the HMG in my right hand (+2 dual firearms)
had missed someone else (+2 second target)
with its 10 uncompensated rounds (+20 recoil).

My GM said, OK, TN 166.

My highest roll was a seven, so I asked my GM
if I could use a 1st edition rule, pretty please.

He said OK, just this once.

So I spent two Karma and purchased a success
and blew the sucker to kingdom come.

[Traks]

Pretty high :)
And no, you wouldn't get autosuccess for 2 karma at my table.

I admit that once player tried to get over 96 TN and of course rolled nothing.
On another hand, different player manages to get 12-14 with rolling 4-6 dice pretty often. He is just lucky bastard, not cheater. But he gets to know too many things and too fast *sigh*

Nice rhyme, btw

[Lilt]

:eek: Yowzer :eek:

Must remember to say no if my players ask to use 1st ed rules... Or yes if they really f**king need it and I'm trying desperately not to kill them all.

In a game last sunday I actually made a pray roll (on my char's religion skill) to attempt to invoke the hand of his god. I don't know if it's actually going to save us, but it did do something even though it seemed less than helpful (the lake which our stone sky-ship was falling towards drained)

(I'd like to point-out that it wasn't DnD, it was a friend's home-grown system)

[Sphynx]

Well, since the book says that 10+ is 'nearly impossible' we just never put a TN over 12. In your 166 case, the TN would have been 12 (only an insane GM would count up all the negatives to come up with a TN of 166).

Highest TN I ever had to roll was a 24 on a RadioShack Tortoise without a datajack, and I had a computer skill of 4 and no pool to add in from.

Sphynx

[Traks]

[Sphynx]

Traks: I honestly have no clue what you're talking about, sorry (where did you hear we have so many successes? I don't even recall the last time a TN 12 was made...). I think you're trying to flame me (not really sure) and doing so without even taking the time to look or think before you speak.

Play to a 150 or 250 karma once and see how many dice you can roll in your speciality. And even then, TN 12 is nearly impossible (unless you're playing the 50+ skill Adept character of course)

Sphynx

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Earthwalker]

There is definatly some justification for not applying some modifiers and of course th 166 example was just being over the top.

We did have a situation of an unaugumented character trying to shoot someone at medium range with a pistol. It was late at night with cloud cover in the barrens so the light was poor. it was raining heavily and the target was using a flash pak.

Target numbers were

Base 5
+6 (light)
+4 (Rain)
+4 (flash pak)
-1 (laser sight)

Total target number - 18

Now if the same guy closed his eyes and shot at the place he hear the splashing

Base 5
+8 blind fire

Total target number 13

Now it is of course better just to close your eyes and shoot. Of course the target numbers only got that high as the shooter was unauged. Add in themo eyes and flare comp and a smart gun link and its.

Base 5
+4(light)
+0 (rain)
+2(flash pak)
-2(smart gun)

Total target number 9

Of course I havent my books here and cant remember the light mods for themo cyber.

[Sphynx]

Ok, Austere, try reading what I wrote. I didn't say crap about 18 dice being nearly impossible. I said 150 to 250 karma characters still being nearly impossible (as they won't have that many dice in their speciality). Most will maybe have a skill of 12 (probably lower). Even if you get 12 dice, that's a 30.666 % chance, at 10 (a more common number at that karma level) it's less than 25% chance. With how often TN's of 12+ come up (that should be kinda rare...) your chances of rolling a 12 on the roll that needs a 12 is nearly impossible.

Sphynx

[Traks]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Sphynx]

Trak... I don't even know where you get that my players start with 12 dice. Only one even started with a skill over 6 at char-gen (the physical adept with the swords). Please point me to where that is not the case... you can see the starting characters at http://shadowrun.i-sphynx.com/orig_characters.htm. All except Cronus (who will be our GM's PC when I take over the game first weekend of January).

I appreciate that people are annoyed that I play 'power' games, but at least keep the fact straight on how 'power' gaming they are. You're way off on the numbers.

Austere. I agree that 18 is better if I want to keep things 'impossible' that are rated as impossible, and if I ever go for a grittier game, will definitely do that. However, 12 is perfect BECAUSE of the type of game we play. Spending 3 karma pool to make sure you get a 12 is part of the fun. Spending 3 karma pool and still failing on 2 rerolls because of an insane TN kinda convinces alot of players to not spend karma pool for 'cool' effects. I think 12 is perfect, even if the base percentange is 25+%.

Sphynx

PS. And actually, you ARE allowed to reply in that manner, even though I may seem annoyed, I'm never really bothered by flame comments, I just wanna know that's what they are so I can flame back a bit without sounding like I took the offensive. ;) Sorry if I seemed too offensive in my reply.

[Earthwalker]

Yeah most of the time we do cap the limit of vision mods people recieve as anything about +8 is worse then just closing your eyes and shooting. Of course thats just for vision, recoil and cover would add to this.

And is it me or would the shooter with a minigun in one hand and a HMg in the other just be better off firing them both into the area the bad guy is and letting suppersion fire do the work ?

[mfb]

nice, OurTeam, but haiku is only three lines and seventeen syllables.

my TN last night
was one hundred and sixty
six. that was teh suck.

[kevyn668]

[Austere Emancipa...]

No worries Sphynx. I can see how capping TN at 12 might be good in a game where heroic stunts are encouraged. I get a bit irritated sometimes, but I calm down almost as quickly...

[Lindt]

Sadly, a number of those mods dont stack I think. Like the invis, conceled, smoke, with cover. And I wanna know how (by cannnon) you could fire a minigun with one hand (not on a tripod, there is no recoil comp)

[Siege]

Well, you could do it -- but I'd like to see the mechanic for "missing limb due to minigun recoil". :grinbig:

-Siege

[Game2BHappy]

[spotlite]

[Zazen]

[Dende]

Well to start:
Tn of 7 NOT 9 for Extreme range -2
The 6 boxes physical AND stun? Realistically if you have a huge wound, that bump on the head isn't going be bothering you. -3
Astral Perception to see the guy would negate a lot of the visibility mods, which shouldn't stack anyway. So invisible is negated, concealed by a spirit, well since it would be visible on the plane, I suppose leave that one there. Complete darkness negated. -16
Exhaust wouldn't be visible on the plane and we have hit -6, to be an ass I suppose the GM could make it 2 worse...but not a full 6...so -4
Glare would also negate the lighting negative by providing this, thought at extreme range of a gun that large...I doubt you would see them at all, no negated -2
15 shots no recoil comp...moving, from a gun this large...a +30...I dunno, I will leave it but shit...
Confused by a spirit? In Chaotic World...
Flash pak again negates the darkness, but this you may be able to see. So I will leave this on here.
HMG in main hand...the offhand modifier covers anything else in the other hand...only the recoil adds(the way I think it works, I could be off there) another -2.
2nd target, I will leave, and 10 uncompensated rounds...No, I think the +30 to using the gun is enough.Realistically a gun can only be so hard to fire before you say, no you just plain can't do it, target numbers or otherwise. Assuming allowing the full 30 before, no way is there gonna be a total of 50 because of the gun...If you have 50 from the gun alone...why bother? I say -20 as the +30 is plenty for a gun mod...

The way I call it: At most 115 but really if you have more than a +50 you shouldn't be able to do it at all..even with a cap of rolling a 24 or 36...that assumes you can do it. this situation just can't.


I appreciat4e you were making it as bad as humanly possible for sake of the tale...but don't strecth it. A 50 is huge...a 166 is rediculous.
A called shot, yeah...why? It should still stack, but come on. Defaulting to attribue firing a gun like this, how and why? Obviously you are a mage, why use a gun like this? that is horrible...but since you are, leave it for now. Okay one handed was bad enough, but offhand?
Why does dwarf with heavy weapon give a +4? Because I don't know the rule I will leave this one alone.

[Zazen]

He's defaulting, so he can't take the TN 9 extreme-range shot even in full daylight with a giant glowing arrow pointing to a stationary, aircraft carrier-sized target. :P

[RedmondLarry]

Zazen Wins. You can not default if the TN is 8 or higher before the defaulting modifier is applied. SR3 p. 85. I had forgotten this.

And I agree on all the limits on vision penalties described above, and the astral perception getting past most of them. Also, Called Shot can only be done with a weapon capable of SS, SA, or BF firing modes (Called Shots, SR3 p. 114).

I've been working on a TN calculator for ranged fire for a few days, and yesterday I clicked all the boxes that give penalties and none of the ones that give a benefit and was amazed at the result. I decided to post it here, along with a lot of modifiers that the calculator doesn't handle (it's for use by GMs that haven't yet memorized all the mods). And yes, mfb, I tried for a poetry affect, but I'm clearly no poet. I appreciate the vote of confidence though.

The discussion (on another thread) of TN penalties due to Glare, Thermal Smoke, and White Noise came from observations made while trying to program the rules for Visibility into the calculator. I'll post the calculator soon.

[thunderchild]

(im going to interject first up and let you know that you actualy used IMHO 3 complex actions IN ONE PHASE, you ran to cover, fired your hmg for a 10 round FA burst, then fired your vindicator, i scrubbed the firing of the hmg)


I fired my weapon at long range (TN 6) ( extreme is at 900+ meters for a vindicator, you couldnt realisticly see them at that range)

with my 6 boxes physical (+3)
and my 6 boxes stun (+3)

(ok first of all i find it hard to believe your doing anything buy lying in a pool of your own blood atm, but for the sake of argument ok)

While astrally perceiving (+2) (all visibility mods removed cause your viewing in the astral, glare and flashbangs mean shit all)

and maintaining 3 spells (+6)
I ran over difficult ground (+6)
to where I was behind 75% cover (+3)
with 5 melee or blocking opponents within 1 meter (+10)


against a target who had run ( had run not is running, he is either taking cover or running, not both)

and concealed by a spirit (+6)
to behind a car providing 75% cover (+6)
so I made a called shot (+4)
even though I had to default to attribute (+4)
to fire my vindicator minigun's 15 shots with no recoil comp (+30)
though dwarf am I with heavy weapon (+4)
in my off hand (+4)
while confused by a spirit (+6)
in a Chaotic World Spell (+6)

Its now at 109, still next to impossible, but a whole lot less painful than 166.