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> Yet Another Matrix System, but far closer to canon
Blade
post Nov 18 2007, 07:47 PM
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This is yet another matrix system but this one tries to stay close to the canon rules and fluff. It just explains and expands some aspects. It is not a complete Matrix system, but I hope it’ll help some of you.

Fluff

History

After the first crash, the rising corps took the opportunity to create their own network, to their liking. Much more closed than the internet, full of DRM, and with far less free contents and services. This explains the way the matrix was in the first editions. Gradually, it opened itself, leading to SR3's matrix, but then came the second crash.
The corps were once again able to rebuild their own system, learning from their past mistake to make sure it wouldn't get out of control again.

Each crash also allowed governments to create new laws against "cyber-criminality". In 2070, all police forces have a hacking department and matrix threats are considered as dangerous as magical or physical threats. The means and methods of the Lone Star Matrix Department are roughly the same as those of their physical counterpart. And they don’t limit their action to the Matrix side. They can also do physical interventions to catch hackers.
Legally, corps can physically catch a hacker even outside of their territory.

Most of the population accepted the changes made to the Matrix, even if most of the time it meant losing freedom. Nobody wanted the crash to happen again. But some people realized that most of what was being made wasn’t made for better security, but just for the corps to get a tighter control on the Matrix. They started protesting about it and created alternative free networks. These networks and their creators became the first target of the new Matrix laws. This led many of them to stop the fight. Those who were left decided to fight directly the official Matrix. They created underground hacker communities everywhere in the Matrix.
In 2070 hacker communities are still going strong, but because of the constant fight by corps and governments (especially after the second crash), there are actually very few real hackers in the Shadows. Roughly the same number as mages, actually.


What is the Matrix?

Nowadays, most people use the Matrix term to talk about the international mesh network, but the Matrix term can also be used to describe any kind of network.

All Matrix-compatible devices (which cover nearly everything you can buy in 2070) can connect directly to nearby devices or route their connection through some router. Some devices, like commlink, can also act as a router. In most places, there are public routers which will connect the devices to the Matrix backbone. Most of this backbone is wired (wires weren’t affected by the second crash), but routers can also fallback on wireless communications if needed. This architecture has a lot advantages. Even if you’re far from a router, you can route your signal through different nodes to eventually reach one. It is also more resistant to crashes. If a big communication hub crashes, the traffic can be easily routed through another one, or even through any working devices.

DNI and the metaphor

The major feature of the Matrix over past computer systems is the use of DNI.
Together with the metaphor, it makes UI really intuitive. The metaphor has nothing to do with past virtual worlds, which were limited both in inputs and outputs. For example a 3D modeller can now shape his objects with his hands, feel it, rotate it, see it under different lights as he would do with a physical object. (Actually, most of the time he'll just have to think about the object to have it created)

Actually, the metaphor is also the best way to interact directly with the computer. It's the first UI to best command lines in speed and flexibility. After all the first use of DNI assisted computing was of course Echo Mirage squadrons. Previous system administrators were kicked out of the system as soon as they logged in. Thanks to DNI, the Echo Mirage members could see the streams of data rushing to them and dodge them with a single thought. They just had to look around them to identify the infected files...

The use of DNI and matrix metaphor give the user the data in the most efficient way, by doing it the way he is used to get it in the physical world, and receives input directly from the brain. Both inputs and outputs use advanced techniques to exploit this ability to the maximum. Even if the visual representation is the most common way to send data, it can also be directly sent to the brain, the way knowchips work.

Matrix views

The metaphor is great but how can we be sure that it will show us the best suited view? A customer will feel comfortable in the aisles of a virtual shop, but it's not really convenient for spiders who want to check everything without having inexistent aisles blocking their view.

That's why the matrix doesn't just store and transmit information but also tailor it to fit the needs of the user. This is done through the use of "matrix views".

There are three main matrix views:
1. Simple data: sometimes you just want data without having to go to a virtual world. With this view you get only what you need: schedules, pictures, music... There's not even a "webpage". The data itself is fetched directly. Of course some sites might refuse to send the data without the whole webpage around it, but these tend to be rare.
Example: A travel agency will send the offers matching your request, and they’ll be displayed (or read to you) just like what you can have today on the Internet.

2. The user view: the user view is the most common view, the system uses a user friendly metaphor to interact with the user. Most matrix sites now offer limited user view for AR browsing: rather than be immersed in the virtual environment, the user will interact with a few smalls ARO.
Most of the matrix sites generate a view for the user depending on the requested data and the metaphor but some force the user to experience it through one fixed representation. On the opposite some sites allow the user to use the user’s own metaphor to “dress� the data.
Example: In the full view, the user will be inside an office, talking to a virtual assistant who’ll help him find what’s best for him, just like in the physical world. If he wants, the user can have a virtual sample of the destinations; visit the hotels and so on.
In the limited view, the user will only have a small AR window showing the assistant, as if it was a vidphone call.

3. The system view (or dev view): this view still uses the metaphor, but the environment is arranged to be close to the machine's state. All useless objects are removed, the positions of each objects are mapped to the memory blocks they are running on... This is the view used by hackers.
If the developer wants, he can have the user view mapped to the system view, so that both view will be more or less the same. But both views can also be totally different even if most of the time they’ll both use the same metaphor to dress up the icons and environment.

The views also come into play in the global Matrix when immersed in VR (or accessed inside an AR window). Your view can fit your geographic position, showing you the icons corresponding to the nodes around you but you can also arrange the icons in any way you want them.

More on the system view
- In system view, the position of each icons show the exact position of the corresponding files, program or persona resources in the system’s memory.
- Even if the persona is running on the user’s commlink, it’ll appear inside the system view. Actually, connecting to a node creates some bridge between the node and the commlink. Part of the commlink’s system will “merge� with the node. In the system view, the persona will appear where the node handles its resources, but this part will be linked to the commlink system. Thus, programs running on the user commlink will impact the node as if the persona was running directly on the node and programs affecting the persona in the node will have an effect on the user’s commlink.
- Each icon will be able to “see� the icons it is allowed to. But if the icon is hidden, the only way to see it will be to have it come in range of the analyze program (and to be detected)
- Walls can still exist in the system view: processes and thread can lock some memory blocks, so that other processes won’t be able to see the content. In the system view, this will lead to walls blocking the view and the access.
- Matrix security experts are able to sculpt the system view to make the system more secure: ICEs will patrol near sensitive memory blocks, walls will limit the view of the hacker, and data bomb will be planted on strategic places. But even if they can turn the system view into a real matrix bunker, they will only do it for high security systems. A too secure system view is more complicated to maintain and might have bad repercussions on the user view.

Nodes and hosts, why size doesn't matter

In 2070 size and computing power aren’t related, except for some experimental systems. You can have the same computing power in a big computer and in a small commlink. Even using several CPU in parallel processing won’t give any significant boost. The only advantage of big node networks is that they can handle much more traffic and programs at the same time.
If one intruder breaking into a rating 5 commlink will face 2 rating 5 ICEs, 10 intruders breaking into a similar rating 5 host will face 2 rating 5 ICEs each. It’s as if each user connected to his own node, except that all users of the same host will be able to interact with other users on the same host.

But what if there are 9 legitimate users and 1 intruder? Will he be sent 10 rating 5 ICEs? It’s possible but this kind of situation will rarely arise because you can’t be sure that the 9 other users are really legitimate users. Sending all your ICEs on the same intruder would be like sending all your troops to attack an intruder in a building, leaving the rest of the building without anyone.

But what if the host is able to handle 100 personas at the same time, but there’s only 1 person connected? Will the 200 ICEs check him? Once again, it’s possible but they won’t, and exactly for the same reasons: you can’t be sure that the 99 other slots are really inactive. A good hacker can enter the node without being detected.
Besides, running too many ICEs on the same slot often leads to more trouble than it’s worth: a hacker can disguise himself as an ICE, so each ICE should check each ICE it comes in contact with. So when you have 100 ICE for 1 user, the probability that one ICE will check the intruder is much lower than if you only had 2.
That’s why most of the time you won’t have hordes of ICE defending a host.

Hacking

Hacking a system is really close to infiltrating a building. You first have to find its location (find the node), then you can spend time to study it, get a valid maglock pass and so on (probing the node) or you can go in straight, hoping to get through the checks (hacking on the fly).
Once inside, you can move around freely, but you can’t get through doors. Contrary to the physical realm, you can fly or even teleport everywhere as long as you’re allowed to. You have to be careful about guards (spiders) and drones (ICEs). You can try to hide from them or be disguised (stealth program), you can convince them you’re supposed to be there (spoof), or take the appearance of a known individual (spoof to get the matrix signature of a legitimate user). Your fake pass may not allow you to get everywhere and open every locker (you can have limited access rights), or you may need another one to get access to some places, even if you have the CEO’s pass (you need to get inside another node, with a new passcode).

Of course, as mentioned, there are some differences with the physical world, but it’s quite close and the best way to represent it. It helps players to get into it quickly and most problems and questions the GM can have can be resolved by comparing the situation to a similar situation in the physical world. Once players and GM are comfortable with it, they can move on to use elements that are specific to the Matrix.
Another benefit of this system is that it allows GM to handle the Matrix scenes in a way that every player can understand so that anyone can listen to it just like they’d listen to the battle the street samurai can have on his own instead of doing something else while you resolve the Matrix scene. But you also have to be careful to make it different from what a player infiltrating a building will do. Use the metaphor to show a totally different world.

Rules

Most of the hacking rules of the BBB apply.
In the Matrix, the Matrix skills are considered as attributes and the programs as skills. If you don’t have the program, you roll skill – 1, if you don’t have the skill, you roll skill rating (0 or -1 if you’re incompetent) + program.

This rule system doesn’t rely on a fixed set of actions. But to each action the hacker can try there’s a corresponding program. Here is a rundown of what is covered by some multi-use programs:

Analyze = Perception skill
Exploit = Exploit design flaws. Can be used to go through a Matrix wall, evade an ID check by an ICE by using a flaw (a master password, an action that breaks the check routine…)
Sniffer = Spying utility, akin to some detection spells or sensors. Can be used to “eavesdrop� data exchange between two icons (for example to listen to the passcode an ICE gives another when checked)
Spoof = Con skill. It is used to give false identification, to impersonate another user (if the hacker has analyzed his matrix signature before)…
Stealth = Stealth skillgroup. It is used to hide (passively or actively, in which case the hacker can roll hacking+stealth), disguise (as data packets or “anonymous� icons, impersonating someone is covered by Spoof).

Simple/quick hacking

In some situations all you want to do is a simple action on a device. In these situations a full hack takes is superfluous (and takes too long to play). This is especially the case in combat situation: you don’t want to spend all combat trying to hack one device, and you don’t want to spend 10 minutes to resolve your hacking in the middle of a tense combat.

That’s why this is resolved through a new system: simple hacking.

There are two simple hacks:
• Messages hacks: sending an order to a device to have it execute one action
• Exploit hacks: hack the node itself but only for one simple effect.

The limits of what a hacker can do with simple hacking are up to the GM, but they should be restricted to quick hacks when there’s no need to play the whole hacking session. Even if programs rating are less important in simple hacking the GM shouldn’t hesitate to give negative modifiers to a character who’d only take the programs taken into account for simple hacking.
For the hacker there is no difference between doing a simple hacking and the regular hacking. The difference is in the rules. You can compare that to rolling charisma+con for a whole conversation instead of playing it all, rolling all kind of social checks.


Message hacks are resolved by rolling a Logic+Electronic Warfare (target’s firewall or pilot rating) test, the number of hits are limited by the rating of the Spoof program. The threshold is the rating of the node or agent the hacker is trying to hack. If the hacker is successful, the device or agent does as ordered. The effect of a message act has to be something the device or agent could be ordered to do. For example if a camera is set to refuse all orders, it isn’t vulnerable to message hacks. If it can be remote controlled but not reset or switched off with simple messages, then the hacker will only be able to move it around.

Exploits hack are resolved by rolling a Logic+Hacking (target’s system+firewall rating, 1 IP) extended test, the number of hits of each roll is limited by the rating of the Exploit program. If the intended action requires admin or root access, raise the threshold as for hacking tests. Actually, the only difference between this and the regular hacking is that the node doesn’t roll to detect the intruder: if the hack is successful the intruder isn’t detected if it isn’t the intruder is detected.

Each hack after the first one will require a new test. If the hacker fails, he gets a -2 modifier for each following test on this node and -1 for any other node on the same “network� (for example if the hacker fails to hack the commlink of an opponent, he will have a -2 modifier if he wants to hack the commlink of another member of the team). The negative modifiers are cumulative. If he fails 4 simple hackings inside the same network, the hacker will have a -4 modifier. This modifier can be reset by hacking the controlling node and stopping the alert, which can’t be done with simple hacking.

Agents

Agents are assistants made for different purposes:
• Help with software: Advanced image editing software can do a lot of complex operations without needing much knowledge from the user: add or remove elements from a picture, correct the lightning and so on. But they still need the user to give their instruction step by step, and the automatic job won’t be as good as what an expert can do and can even sometimes totally fail. That’s where agents come into play. Agents are semi-intelligent. They can consider things in a more human way of thinking. For example, you want to remove a car from a picture. With the image editing software, you’ll have to tell it to select the car and ask for the software to remove it, then select the car’s shadow and ask for the software to remove it, then you might need to adjust other part of the picture (such as reflections of the car somewhere). With the agents, all you need to do is ask it to remove the car.
• Personal assistant: agents can handle your agenda, manage your money, and remind you of important dates and events…
• Answering machine: you’re not always online; sometimes you have to get some sleep. Your agent is still there (even if your commlink isn’t connected, it can load itself on another node) and can take care of any incoming information. It can do more than just store it, if you want, it can process it as well.
• Matrix tasks: Your agent can take care of tasks on the Matrix. As soon as the task is given, the agent will literally go around the Matrix, loading itself on the nodes to get a direct access to information, and going back to your commlink (or another node to wait for your commlink to get back online if your commlink isn’t there when its task is over or if the agent itself is stuck.)
• Guard: Agents can defend nodes, though commercial agents available to the mass market will only patrol and report intrusions. Security agency with the right authorization can sell combating agents, but those can’t be controlled by the client.

Agents and hacking

When building the Matrix 2.0, corps and governments wanted to prevent wide scale attacks and agents were a big issue. One of their concerns was the Agent Smith phenomenon: hackers using clusters of commlinks to send hordes of agents on the target nodes. To prevent this issue, they designed a protocol that prevented agents from connecting to a node the way a persona does, and created strict rules controlling the agent behaviour. In the wake of the 2.0 crash, they also created security teams whose job is to track down and eliminate every threat of virus (hacking agent) both in the Matrix and outside.

Of course, all protections can be broken, and as long as a persona can connect to a node, an agent should be able to do so but so far the corps did a good job of preventing hackers from breaking the protection. It has already been broken several times, but it took big teams of hackers and a long time of work to do so, and some of the teams have been identified and a lot of their members were caught. All in all, breaking that protection has become too difficult and dangerous to be really useful, except for a major attack.

The regular agent’s connection behaviour is simple: the agent requires a connection. To prevent DoS attacks, the port listening to the agent’s request can be closed if the number of agents or outstanding request is too high. If the request is accepted the agent transfers itself to the node. The node will then scan the agent and, if no problems are found, run it. Most of the time, nodes need to read the owner’s commcode in the agent to accept it (this commcode has to be good enough, because the agent uses it to go back to its owner’s commlink when its tasks are over). Nodes are free to apply whatever other limitation they want.

Because of this special security on agents, a lot of nodes actually grant bigger rights to agents than to standard users, or only allow agents to access some data. Agents can also be used for secure transactions: rather than send the raw data, the nodes send agents with the instructions loaded inside. When scanning the agent, they can check for any modification to the agent’s code.

Commercial agents aren’t able to do hacking. Even Cybercombat is restricted to security agencies. So the only way to get a hacking agent is either to program one or to get one from a hacker. As corps and governments track all hacking agent’s programmers, most hackers prefer to keep their agents for themselves and contacts they can trust. So finding a hacking agent isn’t that easy, but anyone with a hacker contact hope to get one.
Hacking agents still need to load themselves on the nodes they’re attacking. Of course, they are programmed to get around the protection systems, but you’ll need an up-to-date agent to be able to hack a node properly. Accordingly, hacking agents have a +2 modifier when trying to exploit a node, and a -2 modifier when trying to evade removal when detected. If the agent isn’t up-to-date, another -2 modifier can apply. All these modifiers can be nullified if the agent is tailored for the node.

Of course, another way to hack with an agent would be to have the persona load the agent and send the persona with the attacking agent. In that case, the agent doesn’t have any modifiers.

Encryption

By request from a community member my encryption house rules were sent for playtest. I’m not sure if I can publish them here.

Technomancers

I didn't really have time to think about them but if I had to rewrite their rules, I'd have them use complex forms that are as different from programs that spells are different from gear, and I'll have them work exactly as spells (you don't have to buy ratings, you have to thread it each time you need it)...

Other rules

Check page 2 for additional details.

----

Congratulations if you’ve read anything. Feel free to comment, as long as it’s done politely and in a constructive way.
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kzt
post Nov 18 2007, 08:11 PM
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Having real encryption work isn't hard to handle if you remember that:

-People are terrible at remembering lots of passwords.

-People are terrible at creating good passwords.

-People are lazy.

-Having written books of passwords is impractical, terribly insecure and generally silly, not to mention frowned upon by security officers everywhere.

So you have to use automated tools. Automated tools automatically encrypt and decrypt files for users using the correct, highly secure, good passwords.

Automated key management tools will decrypt the files for user123 for anyone who is logged in as user123 or has the correct rights to do this (like their boss). The user never has to enter a decryption password, as it's all part of their account.

Hence hackers pretty much NEVER have to actually try to decrypt files, they get them handed to them by the computer already automatically decrypted once they break into the users account. Also, somewhere in the system is a set of key management data that has a list of users, files and decryption passwords.

The only time they would have to try to decrypt files is if they actually choose to steal hardware full of encrypted files without having hacked the system with the passwords first. And then they are pretty much screwed unless they have a million years or so to wait.
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FrankTrollman
post Nov 18 2007, 08:50 PM
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So let me get this straight... your solution to the army of Agent Smiths is to ostrich yourself and hope it won't happen? Your explanation of the why and how you won't get sucker punched by an arbitrarily large number of IC, or why your unlimited horde of agents won't conquer Earth is that it's "probably too much trouble." I find that hard to accept.

But the real thing I have a hard time accepting is how in your universe every single icon, Hacker and IC alike, can simply tag out all of their Matrix Damage every IP as a free action with no limit to how many times you can do this. How? Unfortunately, the answer is simple.

You've gone the other direction from me on computer abstraction. but where I said "no matter how large a number of physical devices you have, you still only have one network", your answer is "no matter how small a number of real devices you have, you still have as many networks as you feel like." This means that the classic BBB cheese of simply running an asstonne of commlinks simultaneously and then simply swapping which one you were acting through each IP is even easier - you don't even need to carry extra hardware.

When you face IC there is an arbitrary amount of it, but the network only bothers assigning one of them to fight you. When you damage an IC, that IC fades to the background and another takes its place as a free action because it's still in the same node.

Your level of abstraction is to my mind unworkable. The actual player character is completely unnecessary: mere software can generate dice pools and actions. and hardware of any size can run an unlimited number of copies of any programs.

This means that everyone everywhere is already an infinity threat before they have left the house or done anything. Only one round takedowns have meaning, and even those frankly mean very little because you can still jus switch to another "device" for free at any time.

There's no way to force people to risk anything of any value in any Matrix confrontation, nor is there any way to stop people from playing arbitrarily large number of seats at any table. The poker game would be completely nuclear if anything meaningful was actually being done to the other side (which it is not).

-Frank
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Blade
post Nov 18 2007, 09:19 PM
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Okay, there are a few things I've forgotten to mention. Thanks for reminding me.

About agent Smith: compare it to terrorists using nuclear bombs. It's the ultimate weapon but no terrorist got hold of one. Why?

About icons crashing, I've forgotten to mention a few details: when you crash an IC it doesn't disappear. It appears as fully working but it doesn't, or it behaves eratically. If there's a spider around he can see that remove it and load a new one. So you can potentially have IC coming back each time it's crashed, but you need someone to use his actions to do it.
As for switching between commlinks there's a big problem in your reasoning: either the persona is the same for all commlinks or it's not. If it's the same, you'll switch to the other commlink but will have the same damage. If it's not, then the new persona won't be connected to the node and you'll have to hack it once again. Or if he is, then he's getting kicked at the same time as the first one is and because of the clusters of nodes, each and every other persona you have will get his ass kicked at the same time by the same number of ICEs.
And by the way, you can't have mirror personas (using various commlinks at the same time with more or less the same inputs), and you can't use more than one commlink to run a persona. To each commlink its persona.
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FrankTrollman
post Nov 18 2007, 09:57 PM
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QUOTE
About agent Smith: compare it to terrorists using nuclear bombs. It's the ultimate weapon but no terrorist got hold of one. Why?


Possibly because it's more difficult to field a nuke than it is to write a perl script that sends copies of your instructions to all 500 partitions on your computer when you send instructions to Killbot455?

QUOTE
So you can potentially have IC coming back each time it's crashed, but you need someone to use his actions to do it.


Yeah, but those are free actions, so who cares? You're literally just sending the instruction "Killbot456 go!"

QUOTE
If it's not, then the new persona won't be connected to the node and you'll have to hack it once again. Or if he is, then he's getting kicked at the same time as the first one is and because of the clusters of nodes, each and every other persona you have will get his ass kicked at the same time by the same number of ICEs.



Once you're in you have an account. An access code if you will. This means that you can swap in icons at whim. For a defender it's even easier as they can simply have as many icons logged in as they want.

QUOTE
And by the way, you can't have mirror personas (using various commlinks at the same time with more or less the same inputs), and you can't use more than one commlink to run a persona. To each commlink its persona.


This does not fit with your "size doesn't matter" rant at all.

Any commlink is able to run limitless numbers of programs taking actions and getting initiative counts. If it can run multiple icons with actions and separate damage tracts, what possible limitation does it have?

-Frank
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Kyoto Kid
post Nov 18 2007, 10:04 PM
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...hmm, Matrix Specialists as uncommon as mages?

I am not sure what I am missing that would make a 4e Matrix Specialist as "unique" as even Deckers were in the older editions. Back then it was she sheer expense of your primary tools: the Cyberdeck and Programmes, that pretty much meant the character was "dedicated" to her profession if she wanted to be any good at it. For example, Black Hammer 5 in 3e could run you 200,000 :nuyen: alone and took up 1,000 MP of active memory (that is the total memory of a stock Renraku Kraftwerk which was the best deck a character could get a chargen). In 4e Black Hammer 5 costs 5,000 :nuyen: and uses one programme "slot" against your commlink's system/response rating.

I was able to outfit my Matrix Specialist with a 5,5,6,6 Commlink (built as a "custom" design) and rating 5 programmes for under 90,000 :nuyen: leaving a lot for implants a couple surveillance drones with maxed out autosofts, and other gear to make her more survivable (and effective) in the meat world than her 3e counterpart. The 3e version of her sank over 70% of her resources out of 1,000,000 :nuyen: into her deck - a Kraftwerk with several custom upgrades - and utility programmes (with no Black Hammer or Blackout utility). Outside of the Matrix, she was pretty much useless except for springing maglocks with her Electronics/Electronics B&R skill (as long a the mage made her invisible) and understanding a few things about the corporate scene.

The bottom line is, 4e makes it easier (and therefore more attractive) to be a Matrix decent Specialist than the earlier editions as it is a lot more "cost effective".
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Blade
post Nov 19 2007, 11:11 AM
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QUOTE ("FrankTrollman")
Possibly because it's more difficult to field a nuke than it is to write a perl script that sends copies of your instructions to all 500 partitions on your computer when you send instructions to Killbot455?


You obviously didn't get my point:

* Agents normally have to be loaded on the node they need to hack. If they do it this way, they won't be able to load too many agents on a node because of the restrictions I've mentioned.
* Getting agents to work without being loaded on the node IS extremely difficult and dangerous.

Besides, I don't see how it'd matter: if you send your agents on a node cluster, each one of them will face their own ICE. And if you send too many agents for the cluster (or for a single node), the server will simply refuse further connections.
If the agents are loaded directly on the node, the node can just decide to remove some of your agents (they should have some mechanisms to prevent such DoS attacks, and they've got total control over your agents).

If you went through the hassle of developping a self acting agent, you might get a DoS attack... Which isn't worth all the trouble you went through, since you can simply probe and hack the node in one day instead of spending several months to develop your agent.

QUOTE ("FrankTrollman")
Yeah, but those are free actions, so who cares? You're literally just sending the instruction "Killbot456 go!"


Deactivate agent : simple action
Run program or agent : complex action

QUOTE ("FrankTrollman")
Once you're in you have an account. An access code if you will. This means that you can swap in icons at whim. For a defender it's even easier as they can simply have as many icons logged in as they want.


More or less, but your PERSONA has the account. Besides if you disconnect one persona to get another one online, the system will probably remove the previous persona's account and there'd be nothing you can do to prevent it while you're switching.
It is indeed a bigger problem with the defender. But if he wants to act like you say, he has two solutions:
1. bring each persona one after another to the fight then start to fight and switch between personas
2. reconnect with another persona and bring it to the fight after taking damage with the previous persona.

The first solution takes time at the beginning to bring all the personas to the scene, and if the hacker moves you'll need to move everyone once again.
The second solution takes time to disconnect (well, you don't have to), switch to another commlink (simple action) and reconnect (log-in, complex action).

QUOTE ("FrankTrollman")
This does not fit with your "size doesn't matter" rant at all.

I fail to see how.

QUOTE ("FrankTrollman")
Any commlink is able to run limitless numbers of programs taking actions and getting initiative counts. If it can run multiple icons with actions and separate damage tracts, what possible limitation does it have?


There's a limit to the number of programs a commlink can run (and there's response degradation when you run too many).
Besides the persona is not a program. It's not something you can run. It's a part of the system of the commlink itself. You have only one system on your commlink, and this system has one Persona, period.

The only way I can imagine having more than one persona is to use different commlinks with different commcodes, switch between them and order them each one after the other... A bit like controlling multiple drones using only jumped in mode.

@Kyoto Kid: It's not only about BP. Everyone can buy the mystic adept quality for a few BP, but there aren't that many around. A Rocket Launcher isn't that expensive, yet you won't see many people running around with one. As I said, cybercriminality is considered as standard criminality, the Matrix system is closed and hacking programs aren't that easy to come by. The script kiddie will have a hard time finding hacking programs and won't last long if he starts using them. And if someone is good enough to be hacking, he can probably get a good job in the legitimate business. That's why real hackers aren't that many.

Of course, you can create a shadowrunner hacker without too much problems... But shadowrunners aren't exactly the norm.
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Zak
post Nov 19 2007, 01:29 PM
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Is it possible to point out where exactly this system is better than the BBB one?

Handwaving away the scriptkiddies isn't something I can easily buy. It is not hard to get hacking tools. Even if you up the availability abit. And there are loads of people with too much time on their hand. You might be able to rule out the quality, but not the quantity.

Sure, alot of people prefer solid jobs inside a save corporation. But what stops the corps to utilize that? Its even better and cheaper than corp military. And we know they fund that.
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FrankTrollman
post Nov 19 2007, 01:38 PM
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QUOTE
Besides, I don't see how it'd matter: if you send your agents on a node cluster, each one of them will face their own ICE.


Gosh, maybe you'd get a probability distribution where some won, some lost, and the instant one of them won you'd get the paydata you were after! And maybe actually playing out a series of opposed rolls to generate this gausian distribution is exactly the fucking waste of time that makes us hate the Agent Smith problem in the first place!

That's why it matters. In any situation where arbitrarily large numbers of computer programs fight other equally large numbers of other computer programs, the attacker wins. In any situation where the defender can choose to simply not get attacked, the attacker loses. Your system has both problems. Meaning that the question of whether the hacker succeeds or fails has absolutely nothing whatever to do with his own skills, his own luck, or his own plan. It's just a question of whether the enemy has chosen for whatever reason to be hackable righ tnow. If they are, then a gaussian distribution is generated where some fraction of agents succeed in compromising the target's system and then the system is compromised. If they are not, then the hacker sits on his hands and the player wanders off and plays Hellgate.

QUOTE
There's a limit to the number of programs a commlink can run (and there's response degradation when you run too many).

So what? You're not running them together, you're running them separately so there's no problems according to this:
QUOTE
In 2070 size and computing power aren’t related, except for some experimental systems. You can have the same computing power in a big computer and in a small commlink. Even using several CPU in parallel processing won’t give any significant boost. The only advantage of big node networks is that they can handle much more traffic and programs at the same time.
If one intruder breaking into a rating 5 commlink will face 2 rating 5 ICEs, 10 intruders breaking into a similar rating 5 host will face 2 rating 5 ICEs each. It’s as if each user connected to his own node, except that all users of the same host will be able to interact with other users on the same host.


But honestly since your assumption seems essentially that the game won't break because it relies entirely on GM Fiat and doesn't actually have a consistent formulation, I don't really care. It is obvious that your set of "rules" is not actually intended to be indepently playable in the ways I care about. So I'm no longer going to pick apart your system but merely give it a thumb's down.

-Frank
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Blade
post Nov 19 2007, 01:40 PM
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As I said this system is more intended to explain and expand a bit the system of the BBB than to rewrite it totally. The only real addition is the simple hacking system.

How can you say that getting hacking tools is easy? Because of the availability? Because you can create a character with a complete hacking set?

Okay, let's go your way and consider that there are script kiddies everywhere. Everyone also has a smartlinked Ares Predator, an armored jacket, grenades and a rating 5 pistols active soft. I mean, it's not hard to get these. Oh, and they are awakened too, it's only a few BPs.

I don't see why I can't consider that hackers are as rare as, let's say Street Samurais, or Faces, or any other kind of shadowrunner?
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Cthulhudreams
post Nov 19 2007, 01:51 PM
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Whoops!
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Thanee
post Nov 19 2007, 02:05 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Nov 19 2007, 03:38 PM)
That's why it matters. In any situation where arbitrarily large numbers of computer programs fight other equally large numbers of other computer programs, the attacker wins. In any situation where the defender can choose to simply not get attacked, the attacker loses. Your system has both problems. Meaning that the question of whether the hacker succeeds or fails has absolutely nothing whatever to do with his own skills, his own luck, or his own plan. It's just a question of whether the enemy has chosen for whatever reason to be hackable righ tnow. If they are, then a gaussian distribution is generated where some fraction of agents succeed in compromising the target's system and then the system is compromised. If they are not, then the hacker sits on his hands and the player wanders off and plays Hellgate.

These are certainly problems and if they are solved in a house rule system (like yours), that's a good thing.

But there is another solution to the problem as well, one that almost everyone playing Shadowrun today most likely utilizes (whether it is known to them or not).

It simply doesn't happen.

Why? That's unimportant. It doesn't, that's all that matters. There surely is some explanation, which could explain why it does not happen, even though the rules allow it, but noone really needs to know this explanation (though some surely would like to just for curiosity's sake).

It doesn't happen for the same reason why you do not get shot by a random sniper every 37 seconds (although it's easy to get a sniper rifle and shoot random people with it and get away with it; gladly those annoying kids that frequent MMORPGs do not frequent the shadowrun 'real' world, or they would probably do that... LOL).

It's the same reason why shadowrunners and fake SINs even exist and are not overwhelmed by security measures and why runners do not need to get their whole face and DNA-structure replaced after every other run.

It's likewise the same reason why not every security mage has Magic 6+ and lets off Force 12 Stunbolts/-balls all the time to accompany those Force 10+ elementals.

Because it's no fun otherwise and not supposed to be and therefore is not.

It's not a perfect solution and certainly not a satisfying explanation, but it works. :)

Bye
Thanee
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Blade
post Nov 19 2007, 02:08 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
But honestly since your assumption seems essentially that the game won't break because it relies entirely on GM Fiat and doesn't actually have a consistent formulation, I don't really care. It is obvious that your set of "rules" is not actually intended to be indepently playable in the ways I care about. So I'm no longer going to pick apart your system but merely give it a thumb's down.

Same thing here.

Since your critics only rely on the fact that you want this system not to work and make all the assumptions necessary to break it, I don't see why I should waste my time answering to you.
Sure, my system doesn't work if you assume it doesn't, just like yours doesn't work if you assume that brain hacking is impossible.
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Zak
post Nov 19 2007, 02:13 PM
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QUOTE (Blade)
How can you say that getting hacking tools is easy? Because of the availability? Because you can create a character with a complete hacking set?

Okay, let's go your way and consider that there are script kiddies everywhere. Everyone also has a smartlinked Ares Predator, an armored jacket, grenades and a rating 5 pistols active soft. I mean, it's not hard to get these. Oh, and they are awakened too, it's only a few BPs.

Oh, that is exactly the reasoning of the RIAA that puts copying a CD on par with shooting people and robbing a bank.

Being awakened is a thing of being born with (more or less). Buying an Ares Pred or a hackertool is not. It actually is just a matter of contacts, money and time.
And hackertools might even be free because you know someone who knows someone who is a 'real' hacker. COOL, let's check that out! And your mom won't even notice because it is on the comlink together with Miracle Shooter and your homework. Remember, I wasn't talking about quality here.

I really can't make a difference between the script kiddies now and in 64 years. And tbh, I don't want to.

But thanks for answering my question of what your intent was. That's cool, and the fast hacking is an improvement over the BBB.
I really think there needs to be a solution to the Agent Smith thing. And I don't write that just because a certain Troll is living dangerously close to me. ;)
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Cthulhudreams
post Nov 19 2007, 02:17 PM
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The problem with the 'GM/Player ambigiously agree not to do something' way of stopping the rules breaking down is that its an undefined solution that the players are agreeing too. You could just make a house rule like 'people are only allowed one agent each' or whatever instead of 'don't abuse agents' which sets a defined limit on what you can do rules mechanicy.

The problem with your solution Thanee, and indeed blades approach to agents is it really is just a 'GM/Player detente' with undefined limits around agents that the GM on the spot has to rule, which is fine if you want to play 'Fiatrun' but thats what your doing.

The other problem with agents as presented by blade is thats is seriously confusing the logic behind them. Making independant agents is presented as 'difficult' and 'not worth the cost' but I'm not sure why it's not worth the cost, and even if there is an inter-corp dentente not to use them. MAD and all that.

I think things could only be improved by saying 'One agent per DNI' Thats a defined, clear unambigious concept that gives everyone a clear perspective on how agents work - tapping into someones brain for decision making, at a rate of one agent per brain.

As for blades comparison of 'axiom of my system is that people don't abuse agents' to franks 'axiom of my system is that people have discovered how to influnence arbitary electricial devices including brains together at a distance' is a matter of logic.

Players in a co-operative storytelling game need a common framework for understanding the world and predicting the outcome of their actions within the framework of the game. Basic scientific principles work well for this (say, star wars' approach to FTL travel), but behavioural ones don't, because there is no reason for the players to do the same thing as they are free actors. And if the players consistently do something radically different from everyone else, something is up.

So ideally you want to define basic principals of how the world work 'FTL travel is possible with special engines and requires special computers and astrogation to drive the engines and navigate' or 'connecting to the matrix gives you +3 dice to everything due to the vast fonts of infomation and computing power that can be harnessed to your tasks' rather than 'people bring along R2D2 astronagivation driods' or 'everyone connects to the matrix'

In the first examples, it is obvious why people choose to engage in the behaviours - a driod like R2D2 can provide special computation and navigation skills, making him very useful, and +3 dice at everything makes the average guy 50% more effective, so matrixing is going to be wildly popular. Without that underpinning reasoning, it comes off as rather strange.
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Thanee
post Nov 19 2007, 02:25 PM
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QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)
The problem with your solution Thanee, and indeed blades approach to agents is it really is just a 'GM/Player detente' with undefined limits...

Yeah, I know. :)

I just wanted to say, that there are tons of those problems around (not just Mr Smith and his invincible army of clones), and most of them are not really a problem, since otherwise most people wouldn't play this game as it wouldn't work at all.

It's better to have rules that work well and have a reasonable explanation as to why something doesn't work a certain way or another, but you will always find some hole somewhere which could pose a similar problem if exploited.

And don't get me wrong, I definitely prefer if there is a satisfying explanation.

Bye
Thanee
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Blade
post Nov 19 2007, 02:37 PM
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@Zak: Actually, the reasoning of the RIAA you're mentioning is exactly what I say is happening in the 6th world. Now hacking is serious as dangerous as murder. There's a Matrix Police out there.

Because of this, the hacker scene is far more discreet than today and don't distribute their hacking software everywhere (because it can lead to him). Also the general public consider hackers as we consider murderers today... I'm not sure the average kid wants to try shooting people for fun.
But even if he does it'll be hard for him to know a hacker (and know he's one) or to find a hacking tool. And even if he does, he'll likely get caught with his first hacking attempt.

That's an important part of my Matrix rules: the Matrix is not the Internet. 2070 Hackers aren't 2007 Hackers (actually they are closer to 80's hackers).

@Cthuludreams: not worth the cost because it's not that powerful. The best you can get with them is some kind of DoS attack. Well maybe you can get a successful hacking, but the results may even not be as good as what you could get on your own (or with a team of hackers). And the next thing you know there'll be a VTOL landing on your roof with a strike team to shoot you on sight.

And if the corps don't use them it's because they don't want them. They actually designed the system to prevent their use: they have much more to lose if they allow them (remember the Crash virus) than if they don't (they can hire efficient hackers who'll do the job for them).
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Kyoto Kid
post Nov 19 2007, 04:06 PM
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...so basically what you are implying a character like my Violet (#56) could not be a Matrix Specialist (again I hate the term Hacker) in the shadows given her backstory because she would have been caught and slapped down the first time she went out into the matrix on her own. By this rationale, she would have become MetaTech's (and later Neonet's) little gene-engineered matrix wageslave (e.g. an NPC) and I would be playing a different character.

...sorry, too restricting & I do not think my GM would go for that.
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Blade
post Nov 19 2007, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...so basically what you are implying a character like my Violet (#56) could not be a Matrix Specialist (again I hate the term Hacker) in the shadows given her backstory because she would have been caught and slapped down the first time she went out into the matrix on her own. By this rationale, she would have become MetaTech's (and later Neonet's) little gene-engineered matrix wageslave (e.g. an NPC) and I would be playing a different character.

...sorry, too restricting & I do not think my GM would go for that.

If she got caught she'd probably got sentenced to something, not necessarily recruited, except if she had some really interesting skills.

I don't say she'd have been caught anyway... I'd say it's as probable as a street samurai getting killed or caught by the Lone Star before having that much illegal ware in his body or such high skills.

My point is not that hackers don't exists. It's just that hackers aren't common, and it's not as easy to become a hacker in 2070 as it is today.
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Cheops
post Nov 19 2007, 04:57 PM
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I still fail to see the problem with Agent Smith.

If an Agent is working alongside a Persona it can only go where that persona goes and acts with Response = to Response of commlink. Agent counts as 1 program as well as any programs it is currently using.

If an Agent is working alone it is still controlled by the originating persona and acts at Response = to Response of currently Accessed node. Agent counts as 1 program against commlink as well as any programs it is currently using.

Okay so you have 10 commlinks, rating 6, all running Agent, Attack, Armor, and Medic 6. You log on to the target node with first commlink and send your agent to attack. You now have to bring the other 9 in. How do you do this?

1) Log out of current commlink and log in with another. Okay Complex Action to log off, free action to switch commlink, and Complex Action to log on with new commlink. Assuming you have Access to target node with all 10 commlinks this also takes a Complex Action. So your first Persona has been sitting in the target node for 3 IPs totally defenseless. Any security could dump you in 3 IPs.

2) Stay logged in with current persona and spoof all the other Agents. Okay lets say it is a free action to switch from one node to another. Spoof Command is a Complex Action, but you have to succeed in a roll against 12 dice (probably with your 14). Then you have to Issue Command which is Simple. The Agent is now acting independently and begins to take time to log onto the system (again Complex Action and we assume that you can give it automatic access). Once again you are looking at 3 IPs for each Agent that you want to bring to the party. So 27 IPs to bring all 10 in.

In Case 1 the Agents are limited by your Commlink (which is no problem) in the second they are limited by the target Node (which likely is reducing their Response and therefore their System). So in the best case scenario you are being beaten with a big stick for 3 IPs without any defenses nor are you Redirecting Trace. I'm pretty sure they'd know where your meatbod is with 27 IPs to trace you.
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Cheops
post Nov 19 2007, 05:08 PM
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Sorry got it slightly wrong. In Case 1 it would be a Free Action to get out of the first Persona. So it only takes 2 IPs plus a Simple Action to bring the other agent to bear. So 2.5 IPs worth of free beats for Security
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Kyoto Kid
post Nov 19 2007, 05:09 PM
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QUOTE (Blade)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Nov 19 2007, 05:06 PM)
...so basically what you are implying a character like my Violet (#56) could not be a Matrix Specialist (again I hate the term Hacker) in the shadows given her backstory because she would have been caught and slapped down the first time she went out into the matrix on her own.  By this rationale, she would have become MetaTech's (and later Neonet's) little gene-engineered matrix wageslave (e.g. an NPC) and I would be playing a different character.

...sorry, too restricting & I do not think my GM would go for that.

If she got caught she'd probably got sentenced to something, not necessarily recruited, except if she had some really interesting skills.

I don't say she'd have been caught anyway... I'd say it's as probable as a street samurai getting killed or caught by the Lone Star before having that much illegal ware in his body or such high skills.

My point is not that hackers don't exists. It's just that hackers aren't common, and it's not as easy to become a hacker in 2070 as it is today.

...for one, she was constantly hacking into MetaTech's matrix which his how she learned what the corp intended for her.

She also hacked into an competitor's matrix (at the age of 17) where she sold the schematics for the (then) prototype MT-5X commlink.

...under the rationale of this system she would either again have become MetaTech's "drone" or the competitor's & never made her way into the shadows.
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post Nov 19 2007, 05:13 PM
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She could have somehow been caught by G.O.D. or LoneStar Matrix Police and gotten a Criminal SIN instead.
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Kyoto Kid
post Nov 19 2007, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE (Cheops)
She could have somehow been caught by G.O.D. or LoneStar Matrix Police and gotten a Criminal SIN instead.

...she already has the standard SINner quality. A Criminal SIN really does not make for a viable character as you basically are "tagged".
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FrankTrollman
post Nov 19 2007, 07:14 PM
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QUOTE (Cheops)
Okay so you have 10 commlinks, rating 6, all running Agent, Attack, Armor, and Medic 6. You log on to the target node with first commlink and send your agent to attack. You now have to bring the other 9 in. How do you do this?


Um... who cares? You don't fight next to your agents, you send your agents, all of your agents, instead of yourself. You spend a free action to send a bulk email to all your agents and tell them that it's fuckin Go time, biatches! and then they all jump in to attack.

Some of them will successfully hack in. Some of them will not. And you honestly don't give a damn because once one of them has successfully hacked in you've actually won.

---

In a hacking scenario, the defender doesn't actually get anything for having stopped a hacking attempt. For the defender to win, he has to stop all the hacking attempts. For the attacker to win, he just has to get the paydata, shut down the node, delete the camera info, or whatever the goal was. In short, he just has to succeed once and he has won. So if he throws [Fill In Large Number Here] agents at the problem and they individually have any chance at all of succeeding, then after an unfortunately extremely large number of dice rolls the hacker has won. He doesn't need to have any hacking or cybercombat skills himself.

And indeed, a Rating 6 Agent has dicepools of about 12. That is really exceedingly large and awesome. So there's really nothing that any hacker could possibly do that a Rating 6 Agent wouldn't have "any chance at all" of succeeding at.

---

Blade's attempt here actually makes the whole Agent Smith thing worse, because IC (which of course are a kind of Agent) can simulatenously and separately act on as many different ports as they want. So with just a single Agent you can automatically have it function [Fill In Large Number Here] times all at once. And while he keeps waving his hands about how people aren't going to do that because each copy has the same chances as the first one, that is in fact exactly why they are going to do it every god damned time.

Taking the "same chance" over and over again is exactly what you want in the game where nothing happens if you lose and your mission is successful if you win. The wheel isn't going to come up Black forever, so copying and recopying your bet onto Red is a virtually guaranteed payout. Hell, with those odds, you might as well go for it on 17 Black.

-Frank
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