HMHVV, Daddy, where do new ghouls come from? Options

[Ghost in the Mac...]

Next session may involve a run-in with the 162s. In preparing for possible ghoulish mayhem, I noticed that ghouls don't have the Infection ability (nor the pre-requisite Essence Drain).

So... exactly how are new ghouls created?

And what rules should I be using if PCs find themselves getting nibbled on?

-~GitM

[coolgrafix]

No rules exist yet for this in SR4. You can refer to the old SR3 Shadowrun Companion for ideas, but that's about it. You're on your own. Have fun. =)

[FrankTrollman]

There have never been rules that changed player characters into the characters called "Ghouls" which they encounter during exciting tunnel fighting mayhem.

When the flavor explanation for Ghouls was changed from "Ghouls are an unplayable alternate goblinization type of metahuman" to "Ghouls are a metahuman infected with a disease that gives them superpowers and insanity" - there was introduced a two tier system of Ghouls. The NPC ghouls had about the same stats and abilities that you see in the SR4 basic book. The Player Character ghouls had their stat modifiers generated randomly off a chart - but in no case were the modifiers as good as the ones that the NPCs got.

Basically it was like the Game Which Shall Not Be Mentioned, where monsters get one set of stats as monsters and a whole set of painful "Level Adjustments" if you try to play one.

Personally I never accepted the "Ghouls are infectuous" plotline. The fact that there has never been a set of published rules that would turn a PC into one is just ammunition in my strident objection to ever use it. Old school 4 life.

-Frank

[Mercer]

There was a lot of that type of bullflop in the Companion. The shapechangers going from an Essence 8 to Essence 6 when they became pc's was my favorite (in a bad way) example of that.

[CircuitBoyBlue]

I personally enjoyed just being a capricious dick of a GM about it. "You got scratched. You're a ghoul." The only time I actually did it, the player LOVED me for it, and had a totally awesome shaman after that, who lived in our basement, because the player lived out of town and wasn't able to make it to the game often. It was appropriate, because his name was Sleeping Bear. And we had a ghoul shaman with an axe sleeping in the basement. Take THAT, burglars!

[sinthalix]

If you refer to the SR Companion (3rd edition), pages 33-34. All the rules are given for a PC to be infected and turned into a ghoul when bitten or scratched.

The results are random, so a character who wants to become a ghoul that way probably won't like the results.

[Pendaric]

Sr3 Critters, ghouls have the pestilence power Kriger HMVV, infer what you will for SR4.

[hyzmarca]

When a mommy ghoul and a daddy ghoul love each other very much they take all of their clothes off and wrestle. 9 months later the stork comes.

[Lagomorph]

I'll enter my input here, I thought the SR3 rules for ghouls were both cumbersome and dumb at the same time, I got lost about the 5th roll in for what the hell was supposed to be happening to my character.

For SR4, I'd say that turning into ghouls is a character ending event, being bit would require a disease resistance test, and if that fails then the character must burn a edge point to continue playing.

Alternately, if you're feeling nice, make them a metahuman strain that isn't in the party, so that if they get bit, they will be a carrier but not a ghoul.

[Jaid]

treatment has been available that will prevent you from turning into a ghoul for quite some time. given it takes something in the neighbourhood of 1 month for the conversion to actually occur, it is generally not too difficult to avoid turning into a ghoul. burning an edge point is excessive.

[Lagomorph]

[Stahlseele]

don't forget that there's TWO tests involved in the turning . . one to see if you actually get infected or if your immune system says:"git outta here freak!" and one test to see if you actually CHANGE into a Ghoul or if you get to stay . . whatever it was you were before . . if you botch the first, you get the second, if you make the first, there's no need for a second . . if you botch the first and manage to be successfull enough on the second, you stay what you were but you're still able to infect other people with HMHVV if i understood correctly . . only if you botch both of those you do change . . and if you do change you get another test to see how much it affects you, based on your willpower . .

[HappyDaze]

I wonder what would happen if you throw gene therapy into the mix, for better or worse...

[JBlades]

Here's a quick version I just whipped up if you're interested. I listed a point value for it as a quality in case someone wanted to allow it at character creation, but it's REALLY expensive because it actually gives the critter stats instead of some mystically arrived at PC version.

Without further ado, I present the SR4 ghoul, ala JBlades:

Ghoul (80 Point Quality)
Ghouls are metahumans infected with the Krieger strain of the Human-Metahuman Vampiric Virus (HMHVV). The virus causes the victim to lose all body hair. The skin becomes a rough, scabrous hide, and the fingers elongate, with the nails hardening into claws. Teeth become sharper and more pronounced, while the eyes develop a white film of cataracts. The transformation destroys the victim’s intellect in some cases, but many ghouls remain quite intelligent. Ghouls feed on the necrotized flesh of metahumans, along with that of other animals. They tend to hunt in packs of anywhere from six to twenty. They live in isolated areas apart from humans and metahumans, but close enough for them to feed on the dead. Graveyards, mortuaries, and illegal chop shops are common ghoul haunts.

*B(+4, 5/10[15]) A(-, 1-6[9]) R(+2, 3-8[12]) S(+3, 4-9[12]) C(-2, 1-4[6]) I(+1, 2-7[11]) L(-1, 1-5[8]) W(+2, 3-8[12]) EDG(-, 1-7) ESS(-1, 5) M(1, 1-5 if magically active) Init(-, 5-15[23])

Movement: As metatype.

Powers: Dual Natured, Enhanced Senses (Hearing, Smell), Natural Weapon (Claws: DV 4P, AP 0), Sapience

Weaknesses: Allergy (Sunlight, Mild), Dietary Requirement (Metahuman Flesh), Reduced Senses (Blind)

Notes: Statistics given are for a standard human ghoul; apply metatype attribute modifiers as appropriate. Ghouls may have the Adept, Magician, or Mystic Adept qualities, allowing them to raise Magic up to 5 + initiate grade.

*Stats listings are given as follows:
First Initial of Stat(modifier, min-max[augmented max])

Krieger Strain of HMHVV
This form of the virus is not transmitted in the usual way, but rather is a blood-borne variant. Any time a potential victim’s wound track is filled as a result of wounds inflicted by the natural weapons of someone infected with the Krieger Strain, but the victim lives, the victim must roll to resist infection. The particular mutation of the virus is weak against a robust metahuman immune system, and only when it is weakened by severe injury can the virus take a strong enough hold to initiate the transformation.

This is similar as an injection vector toxin, and any modifiers which add to the victim’s dice pool against toxins apply as normal to this roll. Failure to reach the threshold means that the victim is infected and will transform into a ghoul over the next 5 days, a process resembling goblinization.

Note that during the transformation, the victim's body ejects all cyberware and bioware, and regenerates based on the original genetic code. All attempts to implant modifications into ghouls are also subsequently rejected by the ghoul's body, though the regenerative powers do not extend beyond this for unknown reasons, and no one has yet done enough research to find answers to the questions raised by this phenomenon.

Toxin Stats:
Vector: Special (see above), Speed: 1 Week, Power: 5,
Effects: Transformation into a ghoul.

EDIT: Edited for formatting and spelling, and to tweak a few things because I literally just pulled this off the top of my head based on the critter entry in the BBB. ;)

This post has been edited by JBlades: Nov 21 2007, 11:11 AM

[FrankTrollman]

[JBlades]

[HappyDaze]

[JBlades]

Ya, I can see that. Could work fine.

[FrankTrollman]

I don't actually see how spending an Essence point to get +1 or +2 to several attributes is going to make a street sam fight and kill dragons if they weren't already going to do that.

But in any case, turning it into a straight Toxin Resistance test makes it even worse. Now you are asking characters to get 5 hits on a straight Body test - which is rather unlikely even for a Body 10 Troll. They get to add bonuses for Antivenoms (which is weird, I would expect it to be a disease test that gave bonus dice for antivirals), but they still aren't going to get 5 hits very frequently.

Yea, I think I'm going to stick with my own 30 BP version. It seems to work much better.

-Frank

[Cthulhudreams]

Doesn't dual nature make it impossible to use goggles or whatever to access AR? I thought dual natured guys couldn't see/interact with AR? (datajack makes sense though)

It's come up before when discussion possession.

80BP ghouls seem like they suck. Sure they are fast and strong and whatever, but really its a game with guns were you shoot things, you interact with people and you sneak around and you get attacked by spirits.

Ghouls:

Shooting - Well, I don;t see how they can use a smart link without an image link. So they are just never going to cut it as a street sammie style guns dude, because they are just down on dice. No reflex recorders, no nothing.

Sneaking: Agility is nothing special, but when it comes to sneaking in plain sight they suck. Claws on your hands through a checkpoint? I'd rather have the monofiliment whip.

Interacting: Gimp charisma furthers the sneaking in plain sight problem, and charisma 4 max means that they are average at best.

Magic: As frank points out, dual natured, no ranged attacks in astral, astral dudes have ranged attacks, you have a problem.

I suppose they are fun in a hulk smash kind of a way, but strength is frankly a big waste of time in SR4 so they just come across as an orc/troll hybrid with the ability to do useful things, like use cybernetic enhancements to be crack shots, removed.

I think the only playable archetype would be a kung fu fighting adept, but even then you suck because you are already down a point of essence which the ork has spent getting some sort of IP booster and cyber bits, for cheaper than you can get enough adept powers to do something useful and have multiple IP passes?

And whats more, you're stuck using melee weapons, which suck, and you lose the main benift of the kung fu adept which is perfectly concealable weapons from mundane inspection. I suppose you hit even harder than the adept (hell, be a troll, have strength 1 bazillon) but your still not hitting as hard as a monofiliment whip.

What DO you see a ghoul PC doing that someone else cannot do better?

[HappyDaze]

[Cthulhudreams]

Well, no particularly. But we are looking at game mechanics here, and ideally things should be priced 'fairly' to ensure that people have a schtick that is theres and no wildly outshone by someone else.

So I agree that they don't need a massive advantage, they just need to be atleast as good as say.. an orc. And at 80 points they... are not.

[HappyDaze]

[FrankTrollman]

Also remember that regardless of what they can do or whether they have any racially exclusive niches, that the character has to be able to fill a niche. Remember, this isn't some tavern in the wilderness that is about to be attacked by goblins - it's a strike force of talented individuals brought together to complete missions of a dubious and illegal nature. People who don't pull their weight have no business being on the team.

Now pulling one's weight can come in many different forms. If you happen to know people who have the info your team needs, that makes you invluable. If you happen to be able to sneak into a building without setting off alarms you can accomplish some portions of a mission. If you can do good legwork, shoot a straight bullet, or provide a getaway car you've got a place in many master plans.

But seriously, you've got a character who can't see, who can't go through a ward or a voluntary check point without setting off alarms. He's bad at spellcasting, virtually incapable of ranged combat, not especially suited to the Matrix, a liability in social situations, and... what? Making a Ghoul Character who can contribute to a shadowrunner team is actually exceedingly difficult whether you're paying points for the fact that you're a ghoul or not.

Having big numbers in one or more categories does not inherently make a character who is broken or even decent. Behemoths aren't playing characters and wouldn't be even if they came with whipped cream and a cherry. If you can't fit into a target installation, chances are slim that you can help much on any particular mission.

---

On a side note: I am openly dubious about adding the Racial Mods of Ghouls to racial mods of other metahumans. There is literally zero precadent for it working like that. There has never been a published metahuman ghoul stat line. There has never been a set of guidelines pblished on how to "add" a 1/4 racial charisma min/max to a 1/5 racial charisma min/max.

-Frank

[HappyDaze]