The NAN, Talking the talk Options

[Sir_Psycho]

So what's the deal with language in the Native American Nations, and shouldn't they be called Roundtines?

But really, I'm writing up an ex-Nan (Sioux probably) Wildcat sniper, and I have no idea what language skills to give him.

Do Native Americans speak the one "native american" language? Are there regional dialects for the Iroquois or Mohawks? Is it all done away with and they just speak American inflected english? Unfortunately I couldn't find anything about language in Dr. Danchekker's primer.

Wisdom, please.

[Pendaric]

The most speak American English with a good percentage speaking their tribal lingo too.

[CircuitBoyBlue]

There's tons of different tribal dialects, even within each Native American Nation. English would probably be the "official" language, just because it's the only thing that nearly all residents are likely to speak. In the Pueblo council, Spanish is probably really common, especially in communities that are primarily refugees from Aztlan that got out before all the ORO stuff went down. A good number of Sinsearach tribals probably speak Sperethiel, and Cascade Orc might speak primarily Or'zet (or whatever the Orc language is called).

Also, remember that the same sorts of language hegemonies that exist in the rest of society (like in real life, where the US pushes English on everyone like the British Empire did before it) would exist in the NAN, as well. More powerful tribes are going to have their languages spoken by other smaller tribes who want to interact with them. Also, it might have to do with how well the language is developed. To my knowledge, in real life the only native tribe with a written language is the Cherokee. I have no idea what happened to them, seeing as they're also one of the most populous tribes in real life (I think, could be very wrong), but their territory is primarily in the eastern half of the country. I don't know if they get arbitrary territory within the NAN, or just seats on other tribal councils, or what, but I bet their language would be a hot commodity, just because it's already a very well developed language with a system of writing.

[DTFarstar]

I would probably go with a knowledge skill "NAN dialects" where you can speak the languages with a language rating = to 1/2 that knowledge skill. Then you could gain fluency in the important ones while being able to puzzle through the others since you've heard them so much/they are similar.

Chris

[CircuitBoyBlue]

I'm not sure they ARE similar. I doubt that Tlingit sounds anything like Seminole.

[Mercer]

Usually if I'm playing a Sioux tribesman, I'll give him English and Lakota. But that's mainly because I had a Lakota to English dictionary.

[martindv]

Well, plus it helps to speak the language of your enemy if your job is covert operations/sabotage/behind the lines stuff, so I think English would be pretty well expected.

[Snow_Fox]

The main language would probably be english with the official language probably being the tongue of the most powerful tribe in each nation.

It is unrealistic to think all american indian languages can interact. Look at Europe, sure there are some language groups that are close- Romance, Germanic etc but even within themselves they cannot always understand each other.

2nd ed page 74 has several language groups showing their groups and sub languages:
Salish: Chehalis, Salish, Okanagon

Tsimshian

Tllngilt

Siouan: Catawba,Crow, Dakota, Omaha, Osage, Hidatsa

Iroquoian: Cayuga, Cherokee, Erie, Huron, Iroquois, Mohawk,Onandago, Oneida, Seneca, Tuscarora

Muskhogean: Chickasaw, Choctaw, Creek, Seminole

Caddoan: Caddo, Pawnee, Wichita

Athabascan: Apache, Chipewyan, Navaho

ETC

So while people in the same language group might be able to understand each other, they also might not. like How Yiddish and German are close enough for communication but English and German are not.

As time passes it might become more fractured as some indians get more defensive and anti-pink skin, We're the Ute'sparticulalry militant? and others might become more open and global embracing english or even Japanese at least as a common 2nd language the way English is a common 2nd language in much of western Europe today.(PCC maybe?)

[D Minor]

West Coast -Hiada..Salish..Kingit(sp?)

[Mercer]

This is from the introduction of the Dakotah Sioux Indian Dictionary by Paul Warcloud, published in 1971:

There are three major dialects in the Dakotah (Sioux) language. These are the Teton, Yankton and Santee. Before we proceed any further, I would like to clarify two important words pertaining to us. These two words are "Sioux" and "Dakotah". The Ojibwa Indians, also known as the Chippewas, who are members of the Algonquian language stock, called the Dakotah's "Nadowessioux" meaning "little snakes". Now, the word "Dakotah", truly, is our tribal name meaning "allies" or "friends". This is what I would like to clarify before I proceed any further. "Dakotah" is in the Santee dialect. In the Teton dialect, it is pronounced "Lakotah" and in the Yankton dialect, it would be "Nakotah".

The Dakotah's, however, are members of the Siouan langauge stock. Some of the other tribes in the Siouan stock are Winnebago, Osage, Iowa, Ponca, and Catabwa, just to name a few. Although these tribes do not understand each other linguistically there are some words which tend to sound the same, are pronounced nasally-gutturally, and in some cases, mean the same. Some tribes, although not of Siouan stock, have words that sound the same, are pronounced the same and also mean the same as in the Dakotah language. For instance in the Aztec and Inca tribes of Central and South America. One good example is the Inca word 'huacan" meaning "holy", "sacred" and "spiritual". The Dakotah word "wakan" sounds and strangely enough means exactly the same thing.

And for your enjoyment, a few handy phrases in Dakotah, spelled phonetically. (The underlined n's are the nasal sounds like in tatanka.)

Pink Skin: Ha SHA-son
Piss: deh-ZAH
Wildcat: e-H'MOO-ton-ka
Wound: tah-OH; Wounded: ta-OH-pe

[Sir_Psycho]

So how shall I write out the skill and roll it? Let's say he speaks "Siouxan" or Dakotah.

Should I write that as NAN Dialects (Dakotah) 4 (6), or as Siouxan (Dakotah) 4 (6), or singular like Dakota 5 or Siouxan 5?

Also, let's say our friendly native american sniper (or any native tongue speaking shadowrunner) runs into some-one who speaks who speaks Siouxan (Crow) 4 (6). Do I default or do we both just roll four dice?

Secondly, if I run into a Cherokee who speaks Iroquian with the same proficiency, do I default with a 2+ or a 4+, and do I use my Siouxan (Dakotah) or my Intelligence for the default?

[Mercer]

For simplicities sake, I'd take Siouan. The various dialects were probably simplified into a coherent language by the Sioux. You could specialize in any particular tribes dialect, although that seems more like a flavor choice rather than something that would come up a lot in play. Sioux (Dakotah) might be the dialect they speak in formal situations, or conduct official government business in.

Paul Warcloud, in 1971:

Unfortunately, the Dakotah language is rapidly vanishing. There are very few Dakotah's living you can speak it fluently and still less who can speak all three dialects. Our younger Dakotah generation has completely lost track of this proud language because in most Dakotah homes, only English is spoken. This is a hold-over from the older generations when the U.S. Government forbade the Dakotah's to speak their proud native language. Sadly, ours is a vanishing language.

I've never come across a situation where two people who had the same language listed had to roll dice to determine if they could understand each other. If you had 1 die in a language and someone was throwing a lot of info at you, I could see rolling. But I don't really see how two people with decent language ratings would need to roll, unless something else was impeding your ability to communicate. In any event, if you had different specializations of the same base language, you'd be rolling the base language.

Iroquois is a different language altogether, so Sioux won't help you much there. (As pointed out, even though I can suss out that "Informacion" means "Information" in Spanish, that doesn't mean I can understand someone speaking Spanish. The occasional similar word isn't that helpful.)

Interesting tidbit: The word "Sioux" which comes from the Algonquian word "Nadowessioux" was actually shortened by the French traders to refer to the various tribes of the area. Its just funny that the name of the language group (and for that matter, the SR country) is a bastardization by the French of an Algonquian word.

[kzt]

I've been told that the common names used for a lot of tribes actually mean "enemy" in another Indian language.

[Snow_Fox]

That's in many languages around the world. The name a people give themselves is often some variation of "the people" or "friends" and strangers are usually variation on: different.

Just look at the english word- "stranger" clearly a variation of the french word "estranger' (my spelling may be off on that one) meaning foreigner.

[D Minor]

Good point ...."Hiada" means the peps also

[CircuitBoyBlue]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that in real life (I know, it's a drag bringing that up), the Sioux prefer to be called Blackfoot. I don't think it's something they get offended about, if you call them Sioux, but it seems odd that their nation within the NAN would be called "Sioux."

[Daddy's Litt...]

I think that is one part. Lakotah is another. 'souix" is an overall title like "European" but they have a much closer attachment to their particular group with in the "Souix" nation.

[Mercer]

It does seem odd that the nation would be called Sioux, but you can look at it like all the tribes got together and argued that it should be called Lakota, or Dakotah, or Yankton or Blackfoot or Pawnee and so on, and they settled on Sioux as a compromise that would make everyone equally miserable. Or, maybe the official tribal name is fairly long, and "Sioux" is just an easy shorthand. Or, we can just not worry about it. (Maybe they were just really big fans of Siouxsie Sioux and the Banshess, we may never know.)

For what its worth, my Dakotah-English dictionary spells Dakotah with an "h" at the end, and my Lakota-English dictionary spells it without the "h". I don't think its especially formalized, and it wouldn't surprise me to find Lakota spelled with an "h" and Dakota spelled without one, but that's the reason I include an "h" with Dakotah but not with Lakota. (My Dakotah-English dictionary when referencing Lakota spells it with an "h", for example.)

[Snow_Fox]

Really? Think of the original United States. They are Americans but were made up of New Yorkers, Georgians, Virginians, Marylanders, Rhode Islanders etc.

In europe the walloons and Flems make up Belgium.

[Sir_Psycho]

For what it's worth, Europe and Asia are the same bloody continent, but people make a big distinction between Asians and Europeans.

[Mercer]

That did occur to me, that as Americans we're all basically named after some Italian guy (kind of lucky we're not called Vespuccians, come to think of it), but at least the name "America" predated a large portion of the people. If your home is in a place called America, there is some sense in being called an American, even if you subdivide it further. (An American and a Bostonian or Californian, "American by Birth, Southern by the grace of God", and so on.)

"Sioux" is an abbreviation in another language of some tribe's nickname for a wide group of people. It would be like if aliens landed in Canada and asked what the people to the south were called, and the Canadians replied, "We call them Yankee-Doodles." And from then on the aliens referred us to everyone south of Canada as Doodlians.

[Sir_Psycho]

That would be awesome. :|

[Kagetenshi]