Counterspell: Active Declaration v Unaware use, Question from a new SR4 player Options

[GentlemanLoser]

Sorry if this has been bought up before, I tried a search, by as usualy my seaching skills were weak. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'm a little confused with Counterspell, how it works on the Mage themself, especially when targetted unawares by another Mage.

First, the Main SR book says;

a magician never needs to declare that he is using counterspelling on himself

Cool. So unlike helping your Sammy friend out, if you were the target of a Manabolt, you always get your CS dice to help you resist the spell.

But how does this work when unaware of a spell being used on you?

Under counterspelling in the SR4 book;

To do this, the Magician must spend a free action to declare who she is protecting.

But that's only on others. As clarified by;

Note that a magician can always use Counterspelling to defend herslef, unless surprised

Does unaware use count as being surprised? Otherwise, wouldn't the magician be able to use thier counterspelling to resist any unaware targetting?

A magician who is actively Counterspelling can even defend against spells she is unaware of

But what's actively counterspelling? CS doesn't casue any Drian (in this use), require any tests, nor impose any dice penalties, unlike sustianing spells.

So aren't (or rather shouldn't) Mages considered to be 'actively' CSing themselves all the time?

Unless surprised...

Then Street Mages adds;

a Magician who is unaware of being targetted by a spell may not use spell defense to counteract it if thier spell defense was not already "on"

Now I'm confused. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

While I understand that you would have to turn "on" spell defense on others, using a free action, the Mage themself doesn't require the use of an action to turn SD on on themself. So isn't it *always* "on" for the Mage?

This post has been edited by Redjack: Feb 21 2008, 02:24 PM

Reason for edit: Flagged as sr4

[Magus]

Typically your CS is latent until you are hit by a known incomming spell, if your mage is simply walking downtown shopping, I would consider him surprised if he is hit by any spell unless it has a physical appearance ie fireball.

Now if your mage is a paranoid sort ( and tell one who is isn't) then he DECLARES at the start of every action/movement I have active CS on myself.

That is how I interpret it.

[GentlemanLoser]

But he doesn't need to declare it.

Or if you rule he does, as it offer absolutly no negative to the mage to do so, whydoesn't he prefix everything he does, and every in combat action with "I SD myself", so much so that you can just safely ignore the player having to admit it and just rule that for any mage, SD is always declared "on".

Are Mages always surprised by unaware spells?

If so, then there's no way they could SD themselves to unaware spells as per;

[DireRadiant]

You can always decide "Active" counterspelling, while not taking any mechanical rolls, always counts as an action of some kind that imposes the standard +2 penalty modifier for any other actions.

[GentlemanLoser]

What then is Active Spell Defense?

If a Mage already in combat with another Mage get's hit by a Manabolt, would they need to use Active SD versus it and take the +2 Penalty?

If not, what's the justification (bar house rulling for balance...) of imposing a +2 Penalty when not in a complex activitly like combat, and they're just walking down the street?

[Ol' Scratch]

Being surprised and being unaware are two completely different things.

Being surprised is being shocked and momentarily stunned by a hostile action that came out of nowhere. You're a doe in the headlights, and even simple tasks are momentarily beyond you until you can recover and get a handle on the situation. So even though you could perform an action normally, you can't right now because, to put it bluntly, you're scared shitless.

Being unaware means exactly that. You're just unaware of something going on around you. Like a guy walking down the street with an Invisibility spell sustained on himself. Your mind is just fine and dandy, and your magical protection (Counterspelling dice) are working at full effectiveness, so you get to add them to your test... assuming you had your spell defense "on" prior to the encounter. (ie, They don't defend you all by themselves; just because you have the skill doesn't mean you remembered to "activate" it.)

Now if Mr. Invisible jumped off a ledge and tried to throw a Firebolt at your face, that would require a Surprise check. If you failed, you wouldn't have access to your Counterspelling dice until you recovered.

[Whipstitch]

Well, first of all, walking down the street doesn't take a test. Ergo, the increased threshold penalty from the days of yore could return just to try and ruin your Sunday stroll and it won't matter until something pertinent to the plot turns up. For example, if the Mage is strolling down the boardwalk and is extending his Counterspelling to cover his date, the penalty won't matter until say, some gangers start tailing him at which point there's a -2 penalty to his Perception/Shadowing test to realize he might get mugged. So a global -2 penalty is justifiable because it really well might as well not exist until something complex is up and because you as a player may not even be in a position to realize that the -2 penalty is doing more harm than good at any one given moment.

[GentlemanLoser]

Doctor, once you've (somehow) turned your SD "on", it's remains on until "the magician decides to end it".

So if it's up before being surprised, shouldn't it remain up? Or doe sht eact of surprise jolt the mage so much any active SD goes down?

Whip, in that case, why bother with the penalty at all, and assume SD is up all the time, and you get it versus unaware spells?

[Dashifen]

I think I can handle this question, GentlemanLoser. I run it like you describe in your second question: a mage can always defend themselves with counter spelling without declaring it, without spending an action, unless they're surprised (which requires loosing a Surprise Test, see p. 155) in which case the shock of the situation causes a momentary lapse in their defenses. After the shock wears off, their defenses snap back into place.

Where are you guys finding information about a penalty for counter spelling? I don't see it anywhere.

Edit: Oh ... rereading DireRadiant's post above, it looks like he's suggesting a house rule for the penalty. Am I correct?

[Whipstitch]

[GentlemanLoser]

Yes. ;)

Which was the original reason for the post. I tohught I was misunderstnading the rules, and that SD either took an action, orhad some inherant drawback.

But it doesn't, and should probably be house ruled.

Like who needs a ward to stop Invisible Mages, when you not only get an innate CS boosted roll to negate the spell, but can also (on a good enough roll) sense your SD going off, alerting you to the presence of said Invisible Mage (probably negating and "Surprise" of them dropping out of Invis and/or Fireballing you).

Not only that, but for a free action you could have used hours if not days ago, all yoru friends, regardless of distance or location to yourself, get that support as well.

To me, CS is just a 'little' too good. ;)

Edit: As a little off topic to CS. Do you only get the CS boosted resistance roll to detect Invisiblity once (for each instance of the cast)? I suppose if you recognised your CS going off, you could probably try to actively dispell the Invisbility. But then you'ld need to be able to perceive the spell...

[Earlydawn]

Counterspelling should definitely impose some kind of standing penalty to give it a price for use.

[Ophis]

On the Invisibility thing, there are no indications that you notice your Counterspelling being triggered, unless you glitch it and eat drain (A Risk every time you use spell defence).

Yes Counterspelling is good, but hey at least it's worth using in this edition(without Sheilding MM). Mostly it balances mages against other types, a Mage gets no real benefit from ambushing another mage where as sammies do. A win for the mundanes. I probably wouldn't allow use of Shielding and it's relatives when surprised though it seems more of a active thing.

[Ophis]

Actually if you want a "price" just have it make the source obvious on the astral plane making it much harder to hide. With how most mages use Masking once they get it that would limit things greatly. That and have it leave a weak, short lived astral sig if it actually does anything.

[Tarantula]

Gentlemen, counterspelling for your friends requires that they be within your LOS. If they aren't in your LOS then you can't counterspell for them.

Other than that, Dashifen nailed it.

[Eleazar]

[hyzmarca]

"Surprised" has a very specific meaning. It means that another character has made a "surprise test" preceding that combat turn and your initiative score is less than his surprise score. If you are surprised, you cannot make any test against the character who has surprised you, offensively or defensively, for the first IP of the CT. In other words, counterspelling can't be used when "surprised" because nothing can be used when "surprised". You can't even resist with a stat when "surprised".

Unaware and surprised are two different things. If your Initiative score beats his Surprise score, it doesn't matter if you are aware of him or not. If he doesn't make a surprise test, it doesn't matter if you are aware of him or not.

[GentlemanLoser]

[Ol' Scratch]

Counterspelling = The Thing That Keeps Sorcery In Check.
Penalizing Counterspelling = Overpowering Sorcery.

Your call. Me, I'm not gonna do it.

[Dashifen]

I'm with DocFunk. The mages in my game already almost never counter spell their team mates mostly because they forget. And I have blasted a few of them with spells, if memory serves, so counter spelling would have been handy. If there were a penalty to counter spell others, then I think you'd never see it.

[DTFarstar]

My GM generally just assumes that if I ever have a free action to burn, it's burned on counterspelling the team. He does the same thing for the opposition, which is mildly annoying sometimes.

Chris

[Riley37]

When questions on the gun rules come up, we usually get a few posts from people with gun experience, who tend to favor more simulation than cinematic approach.

So, first establish what counterspelling is. A quality of the mage's aura? An intentional gesture or word or thought that deflects the mana of the incoming attack? A rules mechanic tacked on without any conception of in-game imagery?

Anyone wanna post based on their personal experience of countering spells?

[Ravor]

Naw, because then all of you stinking Sleepers will know that we exist.

Oops, pay no attention to what I just said, nothing to see here. :oops:




:silly::silly::silly::smokin:

[Ol' Scratch]

[sungun]

Like most things relating to magic, it's whatever you (the player) want to describe it as. For one magician, it may be them projecting their aura around their comrades. For another it may be some crazy technomagical gizmo they cooked up that generates an antimagic field around those in range. For another it may be Dog watching over his friends. Whatever.

That's the best thing about Shadowrun's magic system.

i've always thought of sr's magic system as a sort of universal science. maybe it's the hermetic in me, but it's like painting. someone can sketch and measure and use rulers while another can just start waving the brush, but in the end it's paint on canvas. that's how i view mana. so a mage thinks something and a shaman feels something, but they're both using their psyche to manipulate mana in what are actually similar ways.

i'd try to explain counterspelling by saying that it's much easier to cause mana to be in a natural chaotic state than to be bound into the form of a spell. and counterspelling sustained spells is more difficult because it's not just shaped mana; there's the mage or focus or spirit actually holding the spell together.