 Spy Game.., What are some good ones? |
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 Jan 4 2008, 04:15 PM
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#26
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760  |
The SR4 system has its own flaws which have been discussed to death already. The simpler solution I was thinking of is, when a dX explodes, instead of adding the full value of X, add X-1. For example the d6/d8 problem rolling against a TN of 9, it would effectively become a TN of 10. For a TN of 8, it would effectively be a TN of 9 for the d6, TN8 for the d8. If you're at truly astronomical TNs it becomes problematic to remember how many times you subtract, but if it only explodes once it's not hard.
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Jan 4 2008, 08:40 PM
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#27
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Holy crap, you're exactly right. That is a horribly inherently flawed dice system. So target number 9 was a very bad example. Oopsie. See, I thought we were just talking about a problem of player perceptions, I never realized that a d6 really was more successful than a d8 in certain situations, which is partly due to my misunderstanding you, and partly due to my shooting my dumb mouth off without thinking. So since I thought we were talking about a perception problem, not an actual problem, I didn't really mean to call you bad at math, (I thought I was calling out imprecise language) but since we were talking about an actual problem, I realize I did say that, and I was very wrong. I'm sorry. :oops: Darn, and I thought I was good at math, too. |
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Jan 4 2008, 09:11 PM
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#28
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
(a further attempt to correct my prior stupidity) Right. For any pair of dice d4 & d6, d6 & d8, d8 & d10, d10 & d12, if the target number is the die size of the larger die, then the smaller die has better odds. Ex1: One person is rolling an exploding d6, one person an exploding d8, the d6 has better odds than the d8 for TN 8 Ex2: Exploding d10 vs exploding d12. For TN 12, the d10 has better odds. This is very much a problem. There is a simple fix, though. Well, a fix, anyway. House Rule: If your target number is equal to your die size (i.e. TN 8 when rolling a d8), simply use the next die size down. Your odds are still worse than if the target number had been one less (using the correct die), and still better than if the target number is one higher (again, using the correct die), so now as TNs increase probability of success remains monotonically decreasing. This is actually an improvement, since with standard exploding dice as the TN increases the probability of success is monotonically non-increasing, but is not monotonically decreasing due to the "6=7 problem" (and similar problem for each die size) This rule corrects that. Unfortunately, that replaces it with a new d6=d8 for TN8 problem, but at least now the skills are tied, which is far less inherently broken than the inferior skill being better. Okay, it's not a pretty fix, but I maintain that it's less inherently broken than having the d6 skill be better than the d8 skill for certain TNs. This introduces an interesting fix for the Shadowrun 6=7 problem. That is, when the target number is 6, roll exploding d4s instead. You end up with a 18.75% chance of success per die, which is in between the odds of getting a TN5 on a d6 (33.33%), and the odds of getting a TN7 on an exploding d6 (16.67%) This "resmoothes" the probability curve. Unfortunately, it does nothing for the 12=13 problem. And when rolling for TN7 you're back to using an exploding d6, so you don't really need to reroll it, so it feels like rolling a TN6, (but if you'd actually been rolling for TN6, you'd be using exploding d4s instead) but hey, it works. :-) |
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Jan 6 2008, 02:51 AM
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#29
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I prefer the minus one each time you reroll, as it doesn't require I buy a new set of dice.
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Jan 6 2008, 07:53 AM
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#30
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
But that dramatically changes the odds for lower dice like d4s. Target numbers of 11 are not too unusual in Deadlands, and your 'fix' would require and entire extra re-roll on a d4 to achieve (4 + 4 [-1] + 4 [-1] + ? ... as opposed to 4 + 4 + 3). I'm not sure if the problem is as bad as the cure.
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Jan 6 2008, 12:59 PM
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#31
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
You're complaining that when using small dice against highly improbable TNs, you have to reroll one more time?
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Jan 6 2008, 01:32 PM
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#32
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yes, because in my experience, facing a TN of 11 in Deadlands is not a terribly uncommon occurance. That's just one example though. Your cure scews the whole spectrum of TNs, making each level of success (and all that accompanies that) harder to achieve.
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Jan 6 2008, 04:06 PM
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#33
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Hah. Hah. Yeah, it certainly did elude them. Using D20 mechanics also apparently eluded them, or F.A.T.A.L.'s mechanics. ~J |
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Jan 6 2008, 07:46 PM
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#34
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Don't knock F.A.T.A.L.'s mechanics. Which totally insane and only slightly less impossible to use than Spawn of Fashon's rules, they do allow a great deal of granularity. |
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Jan 7 2008, 12:52 AM
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#35
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
I may be generating some confusion for using the term deadlands (which is a stand alone RPG system in its own right first released in 1996) for Savage world's Deadlands: Reloaded (which is a different RPG system, and an instantiation of the savage worlds system, kinda like Gurps black ops or whatever, first released in 2006).
As savage worlds is striving to be an easy to use generic gaming system, imho, d20 really isn't an option as it is best for 'heroic' games, but SR4's core dice mechanic of dice pools with a fixed TN and sucesses is quite a bit more flexible and generic, so I don't think the idea is quite so silly as you make out. As the system they did use for savage worlds generic RPG system is a modified version of that taken from the original deadlands RPG, which uses a dice pool mechanic with successes, I'm not so sure why the suggestion of using the slightly less bizarre dice pool with successes mechanic from shadowrun provokes mockery. |
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Jan 7 2008, 03:02 AM
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#36
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I haven't played Reloaded, but it seems to me that upon glancing over the product that the dice system mechanics are pretty much the same as the non-d20 Deadlands (of which the second edition was the best). No mockery from me. I love Deadlands almost as much as Shadowrun, but haven't had the chance to play it nearly enough. |
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Jan 7 2008, 03:21 AM
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#37
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
d20 deadlands is best avoided from my limited experience with it.
The dice mechanics are similar, but there is a significant difference between Savage worlds and Deadlands. Instead of rolling a selection of exploding dice as in deadlands, with the size of the dice and the number of dice varying by your skill and attribute, you roll a single exploding dice varying on only by your skill (or for soak tests and the 'pinning' test that isn't guts checks based on your attribute) in reloaded Player characters or BBEG NPCs get to roll an addition d4 (unless they are legendary characters in which case it is a d6, I think), called the edge die, with every test. So it is not really a 'dice pool' system. Also, AFAIK, every single suggested dice modifier in both the core savage worlds book and the reloaded book is an even number, but that may be wrong (but it is what clued me into the fact that I'd forgotten to clearly demarcate between reloaded and the 1996 product) |
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Jan 7 2008, 03:24 AM
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#38
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Oooo yucky!
Deadlands is better! |
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