Social Adept, is this wrong? Options

[Adhoc]

We've just started a 4th edition campaign and I've created a social adept. He's a person who uses adept powers to socially manipulate people.

My problem is that he seems massively overpowered.

He's an elf with charisma 7, Influence 4, Kinesics 4, Commanding Voice 4 & the "First Impression"-quality.

So if he enters a room and gives somebody an order (like "Everybody lower your weapons"), he'll have 21 dice to roll.

And in a "commen" negotiation, he'll have 15 dice.

Is this correct? does Kinesics & Commanding Voice stak?

He'd be capable of standing up in the middle of a fire-fight and yell: "Drop ypur weapons!" and people would do it.

Is this bad mojo for SR?

A.

[ElFenrir]

Welcome to SR4. What you did isn't even considered the most extreme, i'd even call it 'near typical' in terms of a social adept. Social Adepts are _stupidly_ good.

[hobgoblin]

[Backgammon]

[Adhoc]

[Irian]

Kinesics is simply to cheap. Imagine a "Better Combat" power that gives +1 to every combat roll and costs 0.5 points...

Anyway, the easiest solution is: Talk with your players and agree what style you want to play. If you want to play street level, 22 dice are probably to much.

[ElFenrir]

[Ol' Scratch]

[ElFenrir]

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, my group long ago doubled the cost of Kinesics. Even at 1 Power Point per level the ability is essentially like having more than 4 levels of Improved Ability, and the fact that it's a dicepool bonus rather being subject to maximum modified skill rating means it can still stack with Improved Ability, a great benefit, even if it is limited to face-to-face encounters only. Even at double cost Social Adepts can end up with really formidable piles of dice, especially if they mix in the Vocal Range Enhancer and Pheromone line of bioware.

This post has been edited by Whipstitch: Dec 3 2007, 12:05 AM

[Fortune]

[Glyph]

The GM would be within his rights to say that first impression wouldn't apply (using commanding voice isn't exactly "attempting to fit into a new environment" - First Impression gives a bonus in certain circumstances, not all of the time). The GM might even disallow Kinesics adding to the roll, also, since a power that improves your nonverbal communication cues wouldn't really apply to a purely verbal power. And keep in mind that the target needs to understand you - a target who has his cyberears turned off, or a Seoulpa Ring stringer who only speaks Korean, will both effectively be immune to this power.


Even with the full 17 dice to roll, though, the character still wouldn't be overpowered. You've spent lots and lots of build points to have one decent attack that lets you mess up your enemies for one action - you should get what you pay for. There are enough limitations to it that you shouldn't dominate every combat encounter. There are lots of overpowered attacks in SR4 - like someone else said once, it's a game of "eggshells with hammers".

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, you haven't really seen overpowered until you've seen a clever player milk Phantasm and Control spells for all they're worth. Commanding Voice is really the least of my worries when it comes to Social Adepts. It's not so much that I think they're overpowered or anything I just think Kinesics is just a pinch too cost effective and social adepts can lose a die or two without really being nerfed.

[FriendoftheDork]

[Irian]

I agree, neither "First Impression" nor "Kinesics" should help with "Commanding Voice", so the elf would have 7+4 dice vs. the highest defender (let's say 8-9) plus +5 for more than one target - makes 11 vs. 13 at least, seems fair. And even if the Elf wins, he only used one round to gain one round - a nice entry, but nothing more.

[Jack Kain]

As I read commanding voice it be charisma+leadership and kinesics wouldn't apply for some of the reasons stated above.
(keep in mind I'm currently playing a Social Adept with commanding voice so I'm not just some huffing GM)
I also read it as effecting only one target
Also the sound of combat may make using the power impossible as the target can't hear you clearly.

For amusement we role played through a border crossing and I mimiced Obi-Wans "these aren't the droids your looking for" lines. Despite the words having no baring on the situation we got through.

Stuff like kinesics are cheep because being a fast talker may help you avoid a fight get payed more or even get gear faster, but it won't help you in a fight.
It won't help in the matrix and alone it won't get you past security into the corp building.

Most runner groups will have but a single face. A second hacker, a second combat specialist, a second mage can add greatly to a group.
But a second face has very limited use if the group doesn't split up often.

[Critias]

[Jaid]

a second face can provide teamwork bonuses. sometimes, that can be quite handy ;)

also, a second face could be useful because of different knowledge skills and specialisations. a team with an elven face who specialises in corporate etiquette, diplomacy, and seduction is good... having an ork face who specialises in street etiquette, fast talking, interrogation, and bargaining in the same time means that they could both be useful in different situations (especially if they have different complementing knowledge/background skills). throw in a human face with matrix etiquette, impersonation, etc and you've got a third face who would be useful in completely different situations (though 3 faces in the same party does still seem a little bit much, i still can see it as being useful occasionally). frankly, as far as i'm concerned, just about every member of a shadowrun team should have at least a little bit of face in them... an inability to lie well on the part of even one member of the team can be absolutely crippling in certain situations.

this is not to say that everyone should be throwing 20 dice or anything... but everyone should be able to throw maybe 6 dice or so on at least etiquette and probably con tests, imo, just to keep them alive. having a good judge intentions check wouldn't hurt any either.

[Ophis]

[eidolon]

[Adhoc]

I fail to see the analogy (BTW: you'd be surprised at what you can get away with by using the right words; I use this in pick-up).

It seems to me that a lot of people seem to forget that the social adepts powers are magic, - and not just massive social skills. The criteria for whether of not a social adept could pull something of shouldn't be whether or not it is socially realistic, - but whether it's within the definition of the power and that fullfledged mage will be capable of doing it with spells. Adept powers aren't massive social skills, - they're magic.

A.

[Eryk the Red]

Actually, adept powers are generally magic used to grant massive skills (or similar). That's what I like about adepts. They're somewhere between plausible and "MAGIC!".

[Kyoto Kid]

[FriendoftheDork]

[Backgammon]