 Social Adept, is this wrong? |
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 Dec 3 2007, 04:47 PM
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#26
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Deus Absconditus  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566  |
I figure it goes like this:
1) Mr. Talky can burst into a room where people are waiting in ambush or are about to screw up the PCs just after combat starts and he can shout, "Wait, wait, put down the guns!" And if Mr. Talky scores the requisite successes, the enemies will be confused enough by his amazing voice and fancy clothes to lose that init pass as they go, "Oh, okay, they've surrendered, awesome." And then the PCs can fill them with lead. 2) Mr. Talky can also try to stand up in the middle of a fight where gunfire has been exchanged and people have been wounded and say, "Wait, wait, we give up!" And he can roll, but I'm gonna dock him some serious dice or ramp up the basic threshold because chances are, the enemy... -is not listening, because they're concentrating on killing; -is pissed because Talky and Talky's friends probably hurt them or their friends; -might just shoot him anyway because they're not interested in surrender. Bucky cannot, however, stand up in the middle of a firefight that's already in progress and shout "You guys throw down your guns!" and expect any result other than being shot to pieces. No level of con, intimidate, negotiation, or any other social skill is sufficient to get people to throw away their defenses when the PCs have made it abundantly clear that they are out to kill these guys. That's like accepting "Walk into that blast furnace" is a valid command, when the blast furnace is obviously running. Or perhaps, "Jump off this building." It's just not something that anyone will do, no matter the level of dice you roll. That's where you need Control Actions/Thoughts. |
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Dec 3 2007, 04:47 PM
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#27
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Yeah, the current write up of Kinesics is affordable and scales up as high as you want and it stacks with Improved Ability, which is pretty powerful stuff. On the other hand, old school Kinesics used to lower the TN by 1 per point (to a minimum of 2), so it wasn't exactly a slouch either.
See, I don't agree with that. I think if you roll a stupid number of hits or a victim glitches then Commanding Voice should occasionally be alowed to accomplish some amazing things (Note that I consider any command that'd take longer than 3 seconds to accomplish, aka, a combat turn, as grounds for automatic confusion rather than performance). I believe this for a number of reasons. First of all, I've seen a guy lose a finger because a boss pointed out that a pepperoni slicing machine needed to be cleaned. The operator unthinkingly tried to wipe it while the blade was still spinning. And this guy isn't even (usually) stupid or anything (hell, he's the same guy who wears kevlar gloves and is trained to replace the blades), he was merely tired and wasn't thinking; the time span between boss's offhand comment to the loss of a digit was like a second or two. My father's seen similar phenomena at construction sites; combine fatigue, commands and the opportunity to immediately perform without thinking and you have a recipe for the odd horrifically stupid event, and that's not even with magic involved. Mind you, I'm not advocating turning it into a really inexpensive save or die ability, I just think rendering it useless the second a gun hits the scene is weak sauce. This post has been edited by Whipstitch: Dec 3 2007, 05:24 PM |
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Dec 3 2007, 05:30 PM
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#28
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I left the cost alone, but basically let it replace Improved Attribute: Charisma, so instead of being bonus dice it falls within the Modified Attribute Cap. It's still stupid-cheap, but it's not so out-of-control and IMG I don't want improved attribute: charisma to be as expensive as IA: Agility. I say let you face be awesome (within reason), and be glad you actually have someone who wants to play a face. |
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Dec 3 2007, 05:45 PM
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#29
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,168 Joined: 15-April 05 From: Helsinki, Finland Member No.: 7,337 |
Im also for the fun aspect. If a face player(and i really dont mind any character in the end if the player really likes them, has a good personality for them, and has fun), comes up with a rather outlandish, but creative plan, ill tell them to roll. I might give them a high threshold, i might axe some dice, but ill let them try if they took the time to do it. And i really don't mind the costs of everything; im also in the boat of ''if someone wants to play an uber specialist, let them. If someone wants a generalist, thats cool too.'' I even axed hard skill caps(with ratings 7-8 costing new rating x3, 9-10 new rating x4, etc), because i feel that people should be able to grow up OR out, OR both....depending, again, on what they want. A little off topic; but i guess just to show that being a little flexible can help everyone in the end. |
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Dec 3 2007, 07:59 PM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
If you're talking about applications of the leadership, con or negotation skill, then I agree totally to all your points. But, if this is about the Commanding Voice power then you've misunderstood something. Commanding Voice is a magical/mystic power that allows an adept to give a short command to anyone that understands and hears him, that they either obey right away or stands confused. It doesen't only works when the target wants to do the action, and the whole thing works on a subliminal level so they target may not even think in response to the command. Have you read/seen Dune? There is the perfect example of how I envision Commanding voice: The Bene Gesserit Voice. For skilled Bene Gesserit you can command a person to almost anything, as long as it can be immedeately accomplished and the command can be said in a few words. It can be "Untie me" said to your captors (who surely would never do so if only asked), "jump off the cliff" (provided the target can reach one in one turn), or similar. As for your examples, this is how I would have done it if commanding voice is used: #1: The ambushers could lower their weapons, not because they thought it over, but as am almost instinctive reaction to the adept's magical words. I probably wouldn't require more than 4 net hits here, perhaps as few as 2. #2: In this case there need to be a brief pause in the gunfire for the targets to hear the adept, or the power will fail automatically. I might allow it with the use of the throw voice power (or whatever it's called) to speak directly into someone's ear, but then it would only work against 1 person. Since the targets are full of adrenaline and in "fight or flee" mode, their instincts would be less vulnerable to "wait wait" command and more towards "shoot them!" or "flee!." However, according to RAW if the adept scores a single net hit the power works and at least makes them stand confused for a pass. I might be incline to give the targets 2 bonus dice on the opposed test though. Had the command been "surrender" I would require 4 net hits or perhaps more. #3: He normally can't expect a result, but with the aid of magic he can. Again the main obstacle is audial: The targets can't hear him. Other than that the command is fine, just as "walk into the blast furnace." You need Control Actions/Thoughts or similar power, which Commanding Voice is. |
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Dec 3 2007, 08:48 PM
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#31
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Mr. Talky yells: "Drop your weapons!" They drop their weapons. They lose a turn picking them back up again. Same difference. This isn't D&D, with attacks of opportunity. If someone drops their gun, they can pick it up at only a cost in actions. If the lose a turn to confusion, or lose a turn to dropping their guns, it amounts to the same thing... and I'd let a player do it, for that very reason. |
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Dec 4 2007, 12:01 AM
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#32
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Then answer me this: why would the speaker dick around with "drop your guns?" If ANY command must be complied with, he should be saying "Kill yourselves."
But if I recall correctly, the command cannot be something like "Kill yourself." |
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Dec 4 2007, 12:14 AM
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#33
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Target Group: Members Posts: 91 Joined: 24-September 07 Member No.: 13,404 |
"Shoot the man next to you."
or, to get them to run out of ammo (when using automatics) "Squeeze and hold the trigger." or, if they are just behind cover and hard to shoot at currently "Flee" |
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Dec 4 2007, 12:35 AM
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#34
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
..."behind you!"
or .."XYZ" :grinbig: |
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Dec 4 2007, 01:22 AM
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#35
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
In a second of confusion, haven't you ever dropped something you were holding? Now, in a second of confusion, have you ever killed yourself? :P |
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Dec 4 2007, 01:34 AM
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#36
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I imagine a moment of confusion is a pretty common experience right before dying.
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Dec 4 2007, 02:35 AM
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#37
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
You can command people to kill themselves, but since it conflicts directly with perhaps the greatest of all biological imperatives it's a hell of a lot more likely that the victim will ignore it or just stand there like a slack jawed idiot until their brain works through the sudden bout of cognitive dissonance rather than put a bullet through their own head. Commanding Voice is essentially handled like any other social skill; you make your intentions clear to the gm, you roll your dice and then he takes the net hits into account when deciding the outcome of the exchange. There's no real cut and dried threshold that turns it into a save or die scenario unless the GM wills it. This similarity to other social skills is also exactly why I believe Commanding Voice is actually intended for use in the occasional raging firefight. It doesn't actually do anything that other social skills couldn't theoretically do in a more round about fashion and it has a far more limited duration; Commanding Voice nets you one knee jerk reaction while great Con rolls can get you a new BFF. This leaves the ability to quickly force a limited social encounter upon an unwilling victim as about the only decent reason to bother picking up the skill in the first place. |
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Dec 4 2007, 06:59 AM
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#38
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Yeah, it's magic, but so what? We know what the magic does, exactly and precisely, because this is a role playing game and the magic functions within the rules of that game. In this case, the magic adds dice to social tests. Period. Improved Ability: Negotiation or what-the-fuck-ever makes you better at Negotiating. Period. Kinesics does what it does through body language and subtle social cues, not zany Jedi mind control (and even with zany Jedi mind control, you have to say something that makes sense at the time, for someone to believe what you're saying). So here's the scene. Shadowrunner Driver (whispered on the way to the checkpoint): Holy crap, dude, what are we gonna do? We finally lost that Mafia hit squad, and we know they won't follow us into another country where our contacts can protect us, but how are we going to get past the border? This is a stolen car and my fake SIN rating blows goats. Shadowrunner Face Dude (whispered): Don't worry, I'll scam our way past him. Border Guard At Checkpoint (bored gov't employee voice): Hello Sir or Ma'am, welcome to the Sioux Nation. I need your SIN and vehicle registration. What's the reason for your visit? Shadowrun Face Dude (leaning over from passenger seat, waving two fingers in front of his face: THESE ARE NOT THE DROIDS YOU'RE LOOKING FOR! Border Guard: lol whut?! cum on in fellas welcome to the sue nashun!!! And...cut. See what I'm saying? Sp what if someone can very convincingly babble nonsense about droids and wavie his hands in front of his face? Does it matter how smooth a negotiator you are if you're not even having anything remotely like the same conversation as anyone else? Why does the clatter of dice sound louder than the voices in your head telling you this is ridiculous? How does it matter how sincerely the character says "these aren't the droids you're looking for" if the person you're talking to isn't fucking looking for droids? You're moving very, very, far out of the realm of what social skills can do (and the Adept powers in question do nothing but add to the effectiveness of social skills) and into outright mind control magic. Which is -- to me -- sloppy GMing. In the above scenario, let's say the team had decided to blast their way through the border instead of try to talk past the guard. Okay? Violence has become their tool of choice. The driver floors it, and everyone goes for guns (Border Guard included). If the team's gunslinger Adept (using MAGIC) had decided to use his awesomely augmented Pistols skill to shoot some guy in another car sitting at the checkpoint, instead of shooting at a Border Guard, would that automatically get the Border Guard out of their way and remove him as an obstacle? He was using magic, after all -- why does it matter if he was addressing the actual problem (responding to the Border Guard raising assault rifles at them) or just shooting someone in another car the way Mad Max did, that one time, in a popular film? If a social Adept can quote a movie and sling some dice and still achieve an objective whether his action makes any sense or not, why can't the gunslinger (whether he's shooting a viable target or not)? If the social Adept is using his social skills in ways that just don't matter, they just don't matter. Quoting a movie instead of responding to what's being said to you is just silly. No wonder people think "pornomancers" are overpowered if they get away with stuff like that. It doesn't matter how good a liar you are or how likeable or charismatic, sometimes. When you get pulled over and they ask for your license, you can't say "Rhubarb chicken in my purple waffles!" and flip a cop off, and then just sling some dice and expect the cop to just chuckle, give you a warning instead of a ticket, and go on with his day. Social rolls in Shadowrun still require you to be speaking the same language as your desired target for a reason. You don't just spout random words and roll dice, then call it a day, because Adept powers are just massive social skills (those skills are augmented, not wholly replaced, by the magic in question). |
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Dec 4 2007, 07:05 AM
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#39
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Amen, now I might let an OOC comment like that be used as an example of what the Face really said, but if it was meant to be IC then there is no way in the nine hells I'd allow it to work.
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Dec 4 2007, 07:08 AM
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#40
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
QFT, Critias, seriously.
Chris |
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Dec 4 2007, 08:06 AM
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#41
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
The pornomancer is using inappropriate(to those looking on OOC) words to try to convince him to let them through. It would be analogous to the gunslinger holding on to his pistol with his feet and firing the gun with his manhood - it is going to be tough but it doesn't mean it cannot be done. The gunslinger shooting someone else is analogous to the pornomancer talking to the guy in the other car to get them past the guard. The target is wrong. And the traffic cop thing? Well, you would be wrong, because I did it, in a different language even. I was let off with a warning, "Not more than this, here, ok?" *cop points to the speedometer* |
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Dec 4 2007, 08:25 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 12-October 03 From: Germany, Regensburg Member No.: 5,709 |
Isn't the big question if "These are not the droids you are looking for" was what the PLAYER said or if it was what the CHARACTER said? It could have been a simple pseudo-funny comment from the player while rolling the negotiation test. Some groups want to play the whole conversation before rolling dice, other groups simple allow "I'll talk my way through" *roll*. Of course, if the character said "These are not the droids you are looking for", I wouldn't even allow him to roll Negotiation, perhaps Bluff if there's a slight chance that he could make it sound funny to relax the situation. |
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Dec 4 2007, 09:11 AM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Yup, in theory the command can be anything. I checked specifically if any commands are automatically ignored, or if there is any limit at all. There is no limit save one: The GM decides. In your game you may of course rule that killing yourself is just something that cannot be done. Heck, you may even say that it is impossible even with control thoughts etc. (as they do in D&D). It's your game. Or you can just say you need an incredible amount of net hits to pull it through, like 15, 20, 50... sky's the limit. And you would still be well within RAW, the rules are THAT vague. Personally I'd go with 20 net hits for the kill yourself order, unless the target was already suicidal. It's damn unlikely to happen (the highest in our games have been 17 net hits till now), but it CAN happen with the use of edge. And when it does, I'm going to say; Fuck it, he's dead. After all if the adept can pull this off then by jove he can probably kill the target in another fashion also. |
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Dec 4 2007, 09:59 AM
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#44
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Toturi, there's a difference between a "no hable englais" (or however you spell it in Spanish) and a humble apologetic shrug, and someone gesticulating randomly while spouting gibberish in a cop's native tongue. At best, the person with the uncontrolled body language and the nonsense babbling is going to be questioned some more and brough to a local hospital for a psych eval. At worst (in the dystopian blah blah blah ooh-dark-scary future of Shadowrun) a beat cop might think they're doing that "centering" stuff he heard about on This Awakened World ™ last night, and smack 'em with a stun baton or something. But, hey. You shrugged and gestured your way out of a speeding ticket once, so obviously waving two fingers in front of your face and saying "these are not the droids you're looking for" (and nothing else) would have gotten you out of the same ticket, right? My whole point's moot now, I guess.
Ta da. That's the quote we've got about the situation that got me started. When the player in question even says out loud "despite the words having no bearing (sp) on the situation, we got through," it tells me that their GM does not look at the game and the rules and the world and logic itself the same way I do. |
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Dec 4 2007, 10:02 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 12-October 03 From: Germany, Regensburg Member No.: 5,709 |
If you want to reply to Toturi, it would be a really good idea to quote his posting instead of mine :-)
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Dec 4 2007, 10:04 AM
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#46
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
If one of my players decided to use Commanding Voice to say "these aren't the droids you're looking for" (assuming I ignore the length of the command), and gets enough hits, he'll have succesfully convinced the border guard for a few seconds that he was looking for droids, that there are some in this car but not the one he's looking for.
So... yeah, a bit confused for 3 seconds, and a lot more confused for the next seconds, before considering that he may have been the victim of some awful mind controlling spell (or that he should cut down on whatever mind-altering substance he uses). |
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Dec 4 2007, 10:07 AM
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#47
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
Using a joke - and quoting star wars can be funny if done right - is in my opinion a possible - but slightly riskier - way to demonstrate how harmless the joker is, and evade a more thorough border check. So, the GM could have ruled the border guard, if hit with enough successes, to laugh at the Star Wars reference and wave the runners through since the line was deliered with just the right touch to convince him those were harmless tourists and fellow movie fans.
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Dec 4 2007, 10:14 AM
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#48
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
In that case I'd have the border guard roll a movie knowledge test to get the joke... And I won't allow this to work with commanding voice (maybe with a house "joking voice" power).
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Dec 4 2007, 10:25 AM
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#49
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
No, I was speaking in Chinese and gesturing to my speedometer. This comment was made in point to this quote of yours:
It was not meant as a counter example. It was made in illustration that there is a difference between what you'd expect in the real world and the fictional Shadowrun world and vice versa. But yes, your whole point (by my view of your straw man argument) is moot.
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Dec 4 2007, 11:58 AM
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#50
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
"These aren't the droids you're looking for" isn't even a command. I'm not all that sure it would even fall under the province of the power at all.
"You will believe you are looking for droids, and you will believe that there are droids in this car, and you will believe that these aren't the droids you're looking for," would be a command. Last I checked -- and I'll admit it hasn't been very recently -- the power's only supposed to work when you invoke it (IE, not every time you casually laugh, punch your buddy, and say "hah hah, shut up!" or something), and when you actually tell someone to do something, very directly and purposefully. In all my posts thus far, I haven't even been taking that particular power into account (because I didn't see how it was applicable to that patricular line of Star Wars quotes and a border crossing). I've just been assuming that saying nothing but quotes from a movie, a series of "negotiations" that even the player character in this instance readily admits has no bearing on the situation, was nothing more than an attempt to use actual skill rolls (for various social skills, though I can't for the life of me think which one is appropriate for the quotes) augmented by Kinesics and/or Improved Ability. Maybe I'm just a stickler that social powers work as written (along with being a stickler that people role play a little bit instead of just tossing 20 dice at every problem), though. I'm glad everyone is having fun in that game, and I'm by no means about to contact Synner and DE and AH and everyone else that works on Shadowrun and demand that they stop selling books to the dude's gaming group or something. I'm not out to revoke anyone's gaming priviledges, or shut down a game, or say they're even doing it wrong, necessarily. Just that they're certainly not handling it the way I, or the folks I play with, would've. |
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