 Shadowrun without Earthdawn as past, Quick Poll |
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 Dec 9 2007, 09:05 PM
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#126
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600  |
Well, belief isn't just what you want to believe, its also about your deep and primal fears. Insects are popular focuses for phobias and nightmares. As was said in the old pseudo-documentary, The Hellstrom Chronicles (which is a great inspiration for insect spirits), "that, from childhood nightmares to adult schizophrenia, the insect is a common fixation on the human mind - partly because his face seems so evil, partly because he is so indestructible." Just because belief might influence reality doesn't mean its all going to be happiness and sunshine; to quote Agent Smith, human beings define their existence through misery. Or to put another way, the first rule of hell: sinners get what they expect. Actually, the real reason magic works is because we roll dice and get successes. Dunklezahn even said so, way back in SR1 (although its been reprinted in subsequent editions): Why do things happen the way they happen? For all I know the world is one big game and all of our actions are determined by the roll of a die. |
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Dec 9 2007, 10:02 PM
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#127
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Let's say 'butchered by Eismann' instead of 'picked up'. |
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Dec 9 2007, 10:49 PM
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#128
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...@MikeTrevin. Well said. I remember that line from MitS.
Yes SR has been a world stage now, something I have been trying to do, but often players in my neck of the woods (the Pacific NorthWet) tend to be "homers" for the more familiar shadows of Seattle (which for me has become somewhat stale after 18+ years) I have run past campaigns set in London, the Kingdom of Hawai'i, Australia, and the Balkans. One of my favourite site-fluff books is the old London Sourcebook which I still used in 3rd ed. When Shadows of Europe and Shadows of Asia came out I was at my FLGS immediately. The only thing with 4th ed, is we have to wait for time to catch up in all these other locations again. Corporate Enclaves is the next step (Tokyo and Europort), but there eventually needs to be more for in the revision the world has returned to being primarily Seattle-centric again. I would like to know what has transpired concerning the Pendragon and Lord Marchmont in the UK, is there finally real peace in the Balkans (hinted at in SOTA 2064), and what the situation in Russia is like concerning the Trans Polar Yakut and Poland? |
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Dec 10 2007, 07:29 AM
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#129
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
IMHO it wasn't "butchered" but resolved nicely (yes, there are medieval dwarves underground, no, that's not connected to Earthdawn) - just considering all the crap Alpers introduced in his novels. |
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Dec 10 2007, 09:25 AM
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#130
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
It also doesn't explain why Jesus, Muhammad, and Shiva aren't locked in a three-way-death-dual which threatens to destroy huge chunks of Eurasia and North Africa. :cyber: If magic were a product of belief, then the champions of the big 3 belief systems should be walking around, kicking ass and taking names.
Or it could just be that the actual Dragon Totem, after centuries of boredom, noticed that there was finally a nice little dragon cult out there and decided to give its leader a hand just for fun.
Well, actually, given what we know about dragon life cycles, if the World Numbering is accurate then the dragons must be removed from Nightslayer's sacrifice about as far as we are from WWII. Assuming that it happened at the tail end of the Zeroth world, then Dunkie's mommy would have had to have been there. My preferred explanation for the varied traditions is that they are all objectively correct. There exists, at a level of reality more basic that that which we can percieve, primal Ideals, basic Ideals, which cna be viewed as Platonic Ideal Forms. All things which exist, in this wold and all others, are simply inperfect copies of these Ideals, like a bunch of crappy xeroxes. Certain powerful beings, mostly spirits of absurdly high force with absurdly high karma reserves, and weave threads to these Ideals, binding themselves to them, and becoming as Gods. The animistic Ideals, Totems, are generally monopolized by single individuals, Insects being an exception, where this power is split between all of the Mother spirits, allowing them to choose Shamans but making them much less than divine. The more human Ideals, the Idols, however, are wide open. Many powerful spirits have been able to grab divinity from them, filling up countless pantheons. |
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Dec 10 2007, 01:01 PM
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#131
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Nothing about it was 'nicely', as it simply took another authors work and butchered it. Eismann simply removed a possibility he didn't like (Alpers never set in stone that it was really a Kaer - how should he, it's a novel told through the perception of the protagonists). That being said, the novels were the usual german crap... just, the sourcebook was the usual german crap, too. If I had to choose between a dwarven kaer deep down or forests infested with ghost platoons of the Panzer SS... |
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Dec 10 2007, 01:10 PM
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#132
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
You mean you actually consider an official sourcebook "crap"? Yet you still use it, right, or according to your own opinion, your game would not be shadworun anymore otherwise? Oh, and of course, SS Ghosts all the way. Reminds of the run when my runners encountered a ghost ship - an old trade raider from WW2, still shooting at "enemy merchantmen". |
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Dec 10 2007, 01:19 PM
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#133
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Don't need to worry about that - the most recent kanon description of the AGS is Shadows of Europe, thank you very much. ;) On the other hand, if the "System Failure & Emergence - done right" campaign planned actually gets online, I'm not entirely sure.
In Africa, perhaps. But given the actual rules für ghosts... not as impressive as one might wish. |
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Dec 10 2007, 03:36 PM
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#134
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...SS? I thought the Ghosts were from the TT...? :grinbig:
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Dec 10 2007, 04:21 PM
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#135
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
The only thing I like less than Belief Influencing Reality is Objective Truth. Personally, I don't mind that there aren't 400'-tall Jesus Free Spirits roaming the Earth, or anything else based on a major religion. Because all the major religions-- and certainly the Big 3-- are thousands of splinter groups who agree on almost nothing and think the other worshippers are to some degree heretical. And they've been trained for the last two thousand years to expect nothing. And we're only talking about the people who are reasonably sincere, not the ones who get into religion for the money, or just pay lip service to it, or have never really given it any serious thought. And most serious people don't believe in God as a giant, invisible superhero who lives in outer space, but as a metaphorical guide for the way we live our personal, temporal lives. Now matter how many people believe in something they call by the same name, ulitmately, belief is a personal thing. I think the instinct is that if you believe in Thor, Thor will grant you power; but there's really no reason for Thor to enter into it. Believing in Thor (or Elmo, or whoever) is what's important. |
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Dec 11 2007, 10:39 PM
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#136
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 8-November 04 Member No.: 6,817 |
And if you don't.. Thor will destroy you from orbit When was the last time your deity destroyed a navy flagship? No wonder neo-paganism caught on in the 6th world. |
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Dec 11 2007, 11:14 PM
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#137
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
bet Mars/Ares was royally pissed that the hammers were not named after him *g*
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Dec 11 2007, 11:19 PM
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#138
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Well, the corp named after him owns most of them... :D
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Dec 11 2007, 11:22 PM
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#139
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
am i the only one imagining the ares corporation headquarters being hit with a thor shot and ares/mars looking angryly down at it while thor is standing there gloating? *g*
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Dec 12 2007, 02:44 AM
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#140
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yes!
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Dec 12 2007, 02:57 AM
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#141
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I tend to think of mana as a force. Living minds (mostly) can manipulate it, but they lack precise control. Belief is that X factor that allows the brain (or the soul, or the chi) to harness that force. Its like the way a pitcher throws a baseball; he doesn't think about the muscles, about the physics, he just does it. He trains his muscles, he learns the physics, and he practices it to the point that when it comes time to throw the ball, if he's still thinking he's going to screw it up. He has to throw with an empty mind. This was pretty much the plot of the movie, Bull Durham. To wit:
Magic in SR is in a similar state. If a guy says he can fly because Tony the Tiger tells him he can, and then he flies, then he's right. He's more right than the guy who's telling him Tony the Tiger can't tell him to fly. Personally, I never cared for the D&D concept of giving the deities and demigods home addresses and stats. It doesn't take much faith to believe in Thor is you can cast a spell and ask Thor about it. (Given that divine magic works and the gods periodically show up and do stuff, it isn't faith in D&D, but plainly observable fact.) Which is neither here nor there, except as an example that I can turn anything into bitching about D&D. |
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Dec 12 2007, 04:57 AM
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#142
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 28-March 05 From: NA/UCAS/IN/ Member No.: 7,246 |
If I remember right from Gen-Con Indy, they said that one of the projects on the board is a big sourcebook updating the "Shadows of" series up to the '70's. Correct me if I got that wrong, official folks. |
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Dec 12 2007, 06:03 AM
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#143
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I see it the opposite way. It takes more faith to pick a God out of an entire objective Pantheon and stick with it than it takes to believe a fairy tale that has no possible effect on your mortal life. After all, your God could lose. Truth in Shadowrun is still subjective enough, though, due to the subjective nature of the metaplanes. Actual gods and actual spiritual experiences multiply fanaticism. If some crazy bloke is standing on a pulpit telling you that God wants you to kill all the Canaanites, down to the last infant, you're going to think that's his a crazy genocidal maniac. If you go on an Astral Quest and meet your God who tells you that he wants you to kill all the Canaanites, down to the last infant, you're going to go out and start killing Canaanites. This makes things really scary, since those creatures who portray themselves as divine can easily convert fanatics to whatever bizarre cause they might have. The fact that Spider Totem is a real personal entity with a penchant fir commandeering nuclear-equipped ballistic-missile submarines makes The Spiders members' faith in her even more scary than it would otherwise be. |
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Dec 12 2007, 07:03 AM
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#144
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I would say at that point it's not "faith" any more, though, but perhaps better described as "trust" or "confidence" or even just "obedience."
Faith is often defined as the belief in something despite there being proof as to it's existence. Picking a deity out of a pantheon and sticking to it is more like choosing a football team than showing "faith" in something. If you know that shit's real, you're not so much being faithful to it as picking a favorite. |
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Dec 12 2007, 02:41 PM
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#145
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
The latter sums up 'faith' nicely for me. ;) |
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Dec 12 2007, 07:41 PM
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#146
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Eh, without getting into a debate on religion (which as fun as it is, isn't terribly game related), the only reason it matters at all for us to have an idea of how magic functions in the game-- even if no one outside our group shares it-- is because not every eventuality can be covered in the rule book. GM's, and players to a certain extent, have to make judgment calls in every aspect of the system, but particularly in Magic. With Combat, Vehicles or the Matrix, you can fall back on a knowledge of physics or computers or action movies; a lot of the time what you're dealing with are updated versions of things that exist today (although that is more true now than when the game first came out-- nobody was controlling a pong game with their mind back then), but Magic is a complete fabrication, it obeys only its own laws. The only points of reference we have are the ones we or someone else makes up.
In the strictest terms, it doesn't really matter where magic comes from. I mean, it comes from the rules; characters have Magic Ratings, they buy Powers and Spells, the roll their Dice Pools. Cubes of plastic are the only true source of mana in the game, but beyond the mechanical function the fluff can be almost anything. But when situations come up that aren't covered in the book, when you're off the edge of the map with the mechanical functions, the fluff is all you have to go on |
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Dec 13 2007, 03:31 AM
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#147
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Most Christians and other deists believe in an actual God, and don't consider their holy books to be the equivalent of Dear Abby. You might want to cut down on the flamebaiting. |
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Dec 13 2007, 04:02 AM
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#148
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
I don't know about anyone else, but his sentiment seemed pretty sincere to me. Unless I'm mistaken about the definition of flame-baiting, the term doesn't really apply to everything that might possibly offend someone, just things which are designed to offend someone. I mean, if we want to start a flame war, we probably can, just by accusing people of flaming or flame-baiting left and right, but I'm not sure how relevant to the topic that would be. |
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Dec 13 2007, 06:00 AM
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#149
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
There's a difference between expressing your opinion and insulting anyone else who has a different opinion. There's a difference between saying you don't agree with something and mocking it.
I'm not starting a flame war. I'm just telling Mercer he needs to act with a bit more respect for other posters' beliefs. Sincerity doesn't have anything to do with it. I may sincerely disagree with, say, Catholicism, or the Islamic faith, or neo-paganism, but that doesn't mean you'll see me mocking those beliefs in my posts. |
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Dec 13 2007, 06:49 AM
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#150
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I don't see any disrespect there. He made no value judgments, or even disparaging commentary about any specific religion. In fact, I believe that Mercer is being quite sincere in his expressed belief that not many people actually envision God (or Jesus or Muhammad, or Vishnu, or ...) as a giant humanoid being standing among the stars.
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