 Shadowrun without Earthdawn as past, Quick Poll |
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 Dec 5 2007, 07:44 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537  |
And it went belly up pretty soon - the homepage vanished, the forum is closed... Last thing I heard was the rules now being used for a home-brew Star Wars campaign. I would have liked to see it actually released just to see how it would've turned out. I know there were quite some bets going on after the announcement of that "superior™" game that would appeal to "every SR player" but just be "better™" than SR in "every aspect". |
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Dec 5 2007, 08:29 AM
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#27
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Well, like psykotisk_overlegen put it - that 'as long as' is growing quite large if you think about it.
Actually, Shdowrun would be a completly different game if it was based just/heavily on RL legends extensively... and we would have more people complaining about historical accuracy. ;) |
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Dec 5 2007, 08:55 AM
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#28
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Why not just call this poll "do you like the ED links?" because that's all that's really being asked.
You can't really vote in a poll like this with any accuracy, or argue about what "Shadowrun" is or isn't -- because it's so many different things to so many different players, GMs, and (obviously) even game developers. To some people it's all about gritty crime on the rough streets of Seattle, to others it's slick operatives living the high life of a freelance superspy/assassin, to others it's nothing but a sort of futuretech-augmented fantasy setting chock full of the machinations of powerful Elves and ruthless Dragons, and to some it's nothing but a Michael Mann flick with magic for a bigger special effects budget. It varies so very wildly from campaign to campaign, and sometimes even session to session, that pinning down what's "essential" to Shadowrun, what makes it whatever it is, is like trying to staple Jell-o to a wall. Good luck. |
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Dec 5 2007, 09:19 AM
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#29
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Or rather: "Does the combined history with Earthdawn distinguishes Shadowrun from any other modern-fantasy system"? |
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Dec 5 2007, 09:36 AM
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#30
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
The point of the poll is exactly that - to see for how many players and GMs the ED links are something that defines Shadowrun.
Having started in SR1, ED does not define SR for me. |
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Dec 5 2007, 09:53 AM
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#31
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Well, the SR1 definition of the setting is pretty different than the current one.
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Dec 5 2007, 10:05 AM
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#32
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
Magic - check
Megacorps - check Metahumans - check Social issues - check Dragons - check Shadowrunners - check Cyberware - check Private Police - check Paracritters - check Matrix - check Native american, elven and other new states - check Doesn't look like there are that many differences between SR1 and SR4 to me. The toys changed a bit, some borders changed, a few logos of corps changed. |
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Dec 5 2007, 10:07 AM
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#33
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
Another question is: If ED is essential for Shadowrun, if it defines Shadowrun, then where are the sourcebooks detailing it for Shadowrun? The "Secrets of the 4th World"? The "Neo-Anarchists' Guide to Barsaive"? The "This is what you need to know about Earthdawn if you want to play Shadowrun" Guide?
All we have are obscure and veiled hints, nothing concrete, nothing on the level of what we have on other threats like insect spirits, or on cities, or corps. Even LoneStar has a ton more info available for GMs and players than the ED link. Either FASA and Catalyst have been messing up for years by neglecting to give us crucial information, or ED simply is not essential for Shadowrun. |
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Dec 5 2007, 11:01 AM
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#34
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Earthdawn is essential,. to some degree, if you want to dig that deep into the historic metaplot. But you don't, really. You aren't supposed to. There are only small hints for things past, PCs are supposed to see them but they aren't supposed to know what they mean. The truth is more of an Easter Egg than anything else. It helps when dealing with GDs and IEs and Sprites (Windlings) and Obsidimen, things which are rarely dealt with but which do exist in the canon. It isn't meant to be out in the open.
It also provides a good and useful foundation for dealing with Metaphysics, since the people of Earthdawn have a much greater understanding of magic and metaphysics than those who live in the time of Shadowrun do. It is easier to keep them mostly separate, so SR will never have many specific details of ED. |
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Dec 5 2007, 12:07 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 8-November 04 Member No.: 6,817 |
Earthdawn provides the "this is how it is" explanations that GMs need to present the magical leftovers from 4th correctly (unless they just want to make stuff up as they go along, which is also fine). Players in SR will never have a need of knowing how the magic of the 6th world really works, but will appreciate the relative consistency that a GM basing his magic on that of ED will present. |
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Dec 5 2007, 12:30 PM
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#36
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
Back when we played both ED and SR, we were rather annoyed by the differences in magic. Stuff like "Hey, if ED is sooo much more advanced, why can't we astrally project as easy as every mage in SR?" and "Why are our spell selections so limited?" not to mention "Why on earth do my spells have less range in ED than in SR?" were much more common than "oh, nice, now we know why this artefact works like it does" - since it usually did not work like in ED.
The whole "crossover" felt rather forced, and not really logical based upon the system differences. |
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Dec 5 2007, 01:15 PM
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#37
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
There needs to be a 4th world. That world does not have to be ED, but any consistent world brings with it the things that annoy the cyberpunk players. So I voted No.
One could "purify" SR by removing the 4th world and all references to it. Dragons do not awaken but come into existence by the power of collective myth. Awakened creatures still awaken due to metagenes. Some shadowtalk has to die, Harlequin is a lunatic and The Darke a toxic mage. It would not affect most campaigns, but it would not be SR as written. All that should not stop anyone from ignoring ED. I´m doing my very best to un-see all information on Battletech: The Dark Age. |
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Dec 5 2007, 01:31 PM
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#38
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
"Powerful" so much more "powerful." No one said anything about advanced. |
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Dec 5 2007, 01:43 PM
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#39
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
Not even powerful, to be honest - compared to what we did with magic (and karma) in SR1 and SR2, even high-circle ED spellcasters felt weak. Aerea of effect, range, and the effect itself (easily boosted with Karma Pool/bought successes) made magic far more powerful in SR than in ED. Especially the elemental manipulation spells, like flame thrower, were much more powerful than just about every spell from ED since they were much harder to resist even with Shielding.
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Dec 5 2007, 02:24 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
Maybe, but I wouldn't even say you need all of that. I don't really see why you need magic to be "returning." Nobody really knows about the 4th world in game anyway, except for the IE's, and you can just ignore them, too. You need Dragons, but you don't need them to have come from some 4th world, and you don't need Horrors, either. And if you want them anyway, you can make them unique spirits like the Bugs. But honestly, I don't even see most of that stuff as being "setting" at all. It's plot. Things like the IEs and Horrors haven't really been confirmed in setting books; it's all modules, if I'm not mistaken. And the thing about those is, modules don't happen until you run them. For instance, the events of, say, Harlequin don't happen in my campaigns until and unless the group plays the Harlequin module, if for no other reason than so that the group can play Harlequin later if they choose. |
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Dec 5 2007, 02:26 PM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Take a look at the Fifteenth Circle spells sometime and think again. |
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Dec 5 2007, 02:30 PM
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#42
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I don't really see how it would be all that different. SR came out of the real world, more-or-less, and the real world came out of the history of the world, and most if not all of the magic and creatures in SR were based on real-world legends. If ED had come first, I could see your point, but it was a retcon. I never really saw the need for concrete backstory. Was there magic in past ages? Yes. What it looked like, no one really knows. There might be Immortal Elves from a previous age, or perhaps the Dragons remember something but 1) It doesn't really matter and 2) there are so many more people claiming to be from a past age that would be impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff. (This is similar to the Vampire cliche of vampires claiming to be present at the Crucifixion, called about by Spike in 2nd Season of Buffy, "If every vampire who claimed to be at the Crucifixion were really there it would have looked like Woodstock. Now, I actually was at Woodstock...") I have never minded a setting including something unknowable. There are so many unknowable things in the real world that I find putting them in the fiction increases the verisimilitude. I think if you define too much, ultimately you cheapen it. Magic is supposed to be the mysterious, fantastic and, well... magical thing, but most of the time in games its handled with all the mysticism of applying for a small-business loan. Which is not meant to take anything away from ED, viewed as a stand-alone setting. I've never really associated ED and SR together, because I prefer to keep the lost ages lost. Not everything needs to be defined. Whether or not Achilles was a mythical invention or a grade 4 phys as is something for the in-game scholars to debate, its not a question that needs an answer (and even if you have one, what difference would it make?) It just strikes me as a little hubristic to say (and for whatever reason, I picture Futurama's Bender saying this), "The history of the world? I guess that's a pretty good world history. But I think we can come up with something better." It has taken billions of humans thousands of years to cook up the bizarre shit we call history (what little we know of it, anyway), anything that can fit in an rpg text is going to be reductive. I mean, its the history of the world. Its the richest tapestry imaginable. |
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Dec 5 2007, 02:40 PM
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#43
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Shooting Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,755 Joined: 5-September 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 9,313 |
The original question is a little confusing with a quick glance. Earthdawn is by no means needed for SR. But SR was "evolved" into Earthdawn with its release.
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Dec 5 2007, 03:08 PM
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#44
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, SR has more in common with Tolkiens artifical legends than real ones. Local legends & myth still are barely touched by SR - there so many of them and some so extensive that even some of them suffice to create a new RPG. Neil Gaimans American Gods is a nice read. |
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Dec 5 2007, 03:58 PM
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#45
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...in a way Rotbart is correct, Yes you have the same key elements, but the "legends" fluff back then tended to revolve more around Native American myths and appeared it would continue along those lines as the game grew. Instead the NA influence has almost disappeared in 4th ed. There are no more Shamans in the sense that they were totally distinctive from Hermetics. Now you can choose if you want to follow a totem Back then, as a Shaman, you had to have a totem. A Mage can say she follows the "Shaman's Way", but now she too can bind a spirit (a number of sprits mind you) just as a Hermetic bound elementals. I miss the old Hearth, City, Street and other Nature sprits. It added a wonderful and "different" feel to the game. In homogenising magic with 4e, the developers blurred the old traditional lines to the point of non-existence. Besides the Awakening, one of the large turning points in SR fictional history was the Great Ghost Dance. It brought about the balkanisation (for lack of a better term) of North America and pretty much spelled the end for the last remaining western Superpower, the old United States. That is pretty heavy stuff in my book. Now all this appears to be overshadowed by the presence (and ties to the 4th world) of IEs and GDs. To tell the truth I would much rather the developers continued developing the Native American angle (and native traditions in other parts of the world). |
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Dec 5 2007, 04:04 PM
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#46
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
..and the setting revolved heavily around neoanarchism and music. There were even rules for playing a rock star that ran the shadows. Those times are gone for good. |
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Dec 5 2007, 04:08 PM
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#47
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I know :frown:. I still have my original copy of Shadowbeat and in previous polls on "Your Favourite SR Books" it always topped my list. I also have the NeoAnarchit's Guides as well and even wrote one of my own up called The (Unofficial) NeoAnarchist's Guide to Near Space for a campaign I was running back then.
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Dec 5 2007, 04:18 PM
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#48
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Ouch... one steak too much it seems: The rabbit told me, too. |
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Dec 5 2007, 05:21 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
You might want to look for spoilers about the Ghost Dance, Kyoto Kid. Or not. I can't remember which book it's in (Harlequin's Back, maybe), but it will break your heart.
And yes, I love the Neo-A's guides and Shadowbeat, too. Unfortunately, it was the guys in my old group that had them, and life turned out to be our Yoko. A guy in my new group got me Shadowbeat as a present the other week, though, and now I clog up the bureaucracy I work for by reading it all day instead of doing my job. Unfortunately, it doesn't make me want to play 4th, it makes me want to play 1st. Anyway, I'm fairly certain it has nothing to do with Earthdawn, yet for some people, it's the definitive "setting" book of SR. |
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Dec 5 2007, 05:31 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
I can't answer the question with yes or no. I like the elements of Earthdawn that I know about (not too much, I never played it), and they are increasingly integral to my game. But Earthdawn does not define my Shadowrun. I define it. And I define what parts of Earthdawn (and what parts of Shadowrun canon) are relevant to my game.
In truth, though, you never need to mention anything at all about Earthdawn stuff, mana cycles, horrors, immortal elves, etc. in a Shadowrun game. It's not necessary, least of all in a gritty street-level game. |
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