 Shadowrun without Earthdawn as past, Quick Poll |
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 Dec 5 2007, 06:03 PM
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#51
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 28-March 05 From: NA/UCAS/IN/ Member No.: 7,246  |
I never really used the ED connection very much when I was GM'ing SR games myself. I only got the ED big book because of the SR connection. After looking through it a little bit (and feeling completely lost :( ) I sold the book to a friend and pretty much ignored it, except for discussions on Dumpshock and looking through Ancient History's files.
So, like others have said above, I think it adds some to the background, but unless your game is Uber-level, it ain't gonna make much difference to Joe Runner. |
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Dec 5 2007, 06:33 PM
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#52
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
..all I remember is what I read from the limited amount 1st ed stuff. Don't tell me that those blasted IEs went & mucked with that too. |
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Dec 5 2007, 06:35 PM
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#53
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, it was half-IE. and half-horror! Thais, son of Aina and... Ysgarth, or something, i think? he taught the injuns how to ghost dance. twice, actually--once back in the 18th or 19th century, and then again in the early 21st.
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Dec 5 2007, 06:35 PM
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#54
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
We won't tell you, then. Uh, wait - too late. |
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Dec 5 2007, 06:36 PM
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#55
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Ysrthgrathe.
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Dec 5 2007, 06:37 PM
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#56
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...isn't that a minion of Cthulu? :grinbig:
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Dec 5 2007, 08:08 PM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
You laugh, but I think that's what it was intended as, actually. If I recall correctly, about the time I heard of it was about the time I started hearing of concepts like "Cthulhu-punk."
As a disclaimer, when I heard of something is not neccessarily an indicator of when it actually happened. I'm just saying that's how it seemed to me. |
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Dec 5 2007, 08:16 PM
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#58
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
Cthulhu-Punk?
well, now there's Cthulhu-Tech . . which quite heavyly steals from NGE, if i read that right *g* |
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Dec 5 2007, 08:30 PM
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#59
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...SR & Cthulu... hmmmmmm...
There already is Delta Green - CoC in the modern age. Why not Cthulu in the Awakened Age? Better than a pointy-eared-scaly-hided soap opera. :Cthulu: |
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Dec 5 2007, 08:39 PM
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#60
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Aside from the races, there's not that much overt Tolkien in SR. (I'm not a huge fan of Tolkien, I read most of the Lord of the Rings in high school, I saw the movies, that's about it. I have friends that can discuss the Silmarillion ad infinitum, but I've never been that interested. Not a knock against Tolkien, just identifying my bias.) If anything, the racial stereotypes come out of Tolkien, but those are basically just identifiers of in-game racism. (And Tolkien took a lot of his stuff from legends and myth, going back to my theory they there's nothing new under the sun.) Also, there was some Tolkien influence in SR originally (it pretty much was fantasy at the time SR was written), and ED grew out of SR, but ED isn't Tolkienish Fantasy-- at least it never seemed so to me. (Having identified my bias above as someone who hasn't read a lot of Tolkien or a lot of ED, I might be missing something there.) There's a lot of Lovecraft in the Horrors (and a lot of the Alien Movies in the Insect Spirits), and you can say that Tolkien and Lovecraft were recipients of fever dreams of past ages and interpreted them as best they could, or you could say the game designers were ripping off popular sources; either works for me. Almost everything in rpg's is derivative. But the Paranormal Animals guides aren't a list of creatures from Tolkien, and the magical traditions don't come solely or even primarily out of fantasy. (And fantasy, as a genre, tends to be mined from the same real world sources.) SR derived from myths, and ED derived from SR. That was one of the original ideas of SR, that our myths and legends had been inspired by actual things in previous high mana cycles. The record was imperfect, but when magic returned to the world it redefined in history (as well as the present) what was impossible. Adding ED seemed like an unecessary step, essentially saying, "Its possible that all the magic and myth in history is factual. And also, here's a completely new set of magic and myths no one knows about." I think its an easier claim to make that the SR metaplots are harder to separate from ED than the system, since ED was developed as the backstory to the metaplots that were developing in SR. But even so, the metaplots aren't the game. |
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Dec 5 2007, 09:25 PM
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#61
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Indirectly and partially, that was my point. There are quite some games based more directly on legends, and most of them come from WW.
Sure. The game is pure perspective. |
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Dec 5 2007, 10:02 PM
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#62
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I actually find that Earthdawn is pretty hard to justify against the backdrop of Shadowrun. Seriously, the ancient cities, the massive wars, the untold devastation caused by Horrors - it's all way too recent. And it just isn't in our records.
A past age of magic would have to have been much... lower key than Earthdawn was to fit smoothely into the way Shadowrun has always portrayed the 4th Age as speculatory for the people of the 21st century. We just don't have any lost floating mountains, planet smashing invasions, flaming seas, or teleporting cities in about 4000 BC. We have the Old Kingdom of Egypt and Sumeria. It's just not... not Earthdawn at all. Earthdawn has no real place in Shadowrun. The stuff that happened in it could not have happened. We could have had immortal elves from a past age of magic. But they would have had to have been people like Enkidu, not people like Sorcerer God Queen Aina. -Frank |
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Dec 5 2007, 10:16 PM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
Enkidu would be more like an immortal Obsidiman. Except clearly not immortal...
But yes, you make good points. |
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Dec 5 2007, 10:18 PM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
Well, there is GURPS Cthulhupunk... |
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Dec 5 2007, 10:20 PM
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#65
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
..and there is CthulhuTech...
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Dec 5 2007, 10:24 PM
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#66
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
as mentioned a few posts farther up there *points*
but that's more like NGE the RPG than anything else, if i read that correctly <.< |
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Dec 5 2007, 10:38 PM
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#67
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Sure, just based on another legend than NGE.
Which means that most likely we won't have a dragon running for president, either. Of course, 4000 BC is around the time of biblical Eden, so there was some pretty weird stuff going on... according to legend. |
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Dec 6 2007, 03:36 AM
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#68
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Eh? I don't follow why Big D wouldn't have run for prez without Earthdawn (I think it is rather silly for him to have actually won, but that is another debate.), but FrankTrollman brings up some really damning points, WHERE is the evidence of the Fourth World? Legend of High Fantasy just isn't enough on its own.
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Dec 6 2007, 03:38 AM
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#69
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Something that occurred to me today at work is that there's really no reason for magic in SR and ED to be that similar. I know, we're gamers and we tend to think of magic as a hard science, but one of the cornerstones of SR is that belief influences reality and that certain magical traditions work because people believe they work.
Magic in SR should be totally different, because the world is totally different. There might be a handful of IE's and Great Dragons running around saying, "No, magic should work like this," and while that may work for them, the 6th World is making up its own laws. I suppose a certain number of SR games will deal with the published metaplot, a certain number with a metaplot of the GM's own devising, and a certain number with no real metaplot to speak of (beyond "Who are we blowing up this week?"). Of those three, only the first ties into ED and that tie is, at best, optional. I've always treated SR and ED as separate games. Not intentionally, but my understanding of the SR world was formed before ED existed, and it just never got added in. |
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Dec 6 2007, 04:05 AM
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#70
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...the schedule for Tungsten Rod production has now gone to 24/7. Pele's Wrath on Standby mode...:grinbig: |
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Dec 6 2007, 04:10 AM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
Man, ED ruins everything.
Sorry, had to be done. |
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Dec 6 2007, 04:24 AM
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#72
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I so disbelieve in magic, I so disbelieve in magic, I so disbelieve in magic... *Zap!* Hell and tarnation! That Manabolt still hurts... :grinbig: @CBB, I'm totally with you there. |
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Dec 6 2007, 04:28 AM
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#73
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i don't think that's a cornerstone at all. it's a theory that only really began to show circumstantial rules support in Dot6W, and gained a bit more circumstantial support in SOTA:64. it's more accurate to say that belief's influence or lack of influence on magic in SR is a point of hot debate, both in-game and, to some extent, out of game. |
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Dec 6 2007, 05:41 AM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 28-March 05 From: NA/UCAS/IN/ Member No.: 7,246 |
One of the little tie-ins, purposeful I'm certain, is in Street Magic. The "new" metamagic technique of Filtering (Street Magic page 61). When I read this, it actually made one of the things which really threw me about ED magic make some sense finally. About 10 years too late. :wobble:
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Dec 6 2007, 06:08 AM
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#75
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
You could completely ditch the ED stuff and not lose a thing. If anything, it feels forced and contrived to me, and has gaping logic holes, which SR has enough of already. The whole ED thing was from when they owned both games, and thought it would be cute to put in some oblique hints that ED was one of the previous ages of magic. It's still canonical, but like others have said, it's more like Easter Eggs than anything else. It has little or no actual relevance to the SR setting.
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