 Effective cyber for mages, What is worth the loss? |
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 Dec 5 2007, 07:00 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 9-February 07 Member No.: 10,958  |
I'm making a shaman, and I vaguely recall folks talking about using a single point of essence to great effect on their magical characters. I think cybereyes were specifically mentioned.
So... what do you good folks use the single point of Essence for? What is worth the loss in Magic? |
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Dec 5 2007, 07:05 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275 |
I got Cerebral Booster 3 (alphaware), Damage Compensators 3 and Platelet Factories. That's .98 essence for very few problems with Drain.
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Dec 5 2007, 07:21 PM
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#3
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Anything that enhances stats. Muscle Bioware, Cerebral Boosters, Reaction Enhancers, Synaptic Boosters... use it to shore up weaknesses. Cerebral Boosters are a no-brainer for all astral fighters, strong spirits throw many dice.
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Dec 5 2007, 07:22 PM
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#4
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
everything that con not be accomplished without paying with essence . . smartlink/eye-mods? noo . . contacts . . for example . .
everything that you can get by paying with karma or using magic is better done that way |
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Dec 5 2007, 07:25 PM
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#5
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Trauma dampener, pain editor.
Stahlseele, the problem with having thermo on your contacts instead of cybereyes, is that when you have to resort to thermal only (such as in full darkness) you can't cast on them as it wasn't paid for with essence and isn't an optical only targetting. |
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Dec 5 2007, 07:29 PM
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#6
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
so if you use thermal in contacts, you'd have to switch them off and fire an elemental spell into the general direction?
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Dec 5 2007, 07:29 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275 |
Given that most BP and Karma are spent on Magic and Spells, enhancing stats is key. My Mage has the aforemention Cerebral Boosters, 2 Quickened Increase Attribute Spells and a sustaining focus for one more Increase Attribute Spell. There are also some gene enhancements in Augmentation that give you bonus dice for not much essence, but don't increase the Attribute directly. |
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Dec 5 2007, 07:32 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
Cybereyes, because you can't use the mods from your contacts and stuff to negate penalties for casting spells. Only things paid for with essence. So I generally spend .5 or .4 for Rating 4 Cybereyes with everything in them so I don't get negative dice pool mods for smoke and all that crap. Also a big fan of platelet factories and if logic based cerebral boosters. If non-logic based I generally get some agility or reaction enhancers to spend as close to the full point as I can.
Chris |
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Dec 5 2007, 07:34 PM
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#9
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
I suppose that could work, with a -6 for target hidden, though, a strict reading of the book is that you can't target them because you can't see them, even with an indirect combat spell.
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Dec 5 2007, 07:34 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
That's basically right, and you know what is incredibly dangerous? A open area and a mage with vision magnification in their cybereyes. Say hello to getting nailed with a spell from a mile or three away. |
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Dec 5 2007, 07:43 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275 |
My GM is WAY too lenient with that kind of thing. He allows spells to be targeted within LOS, regardless of illumination. In our game, if you have thermo on your contacts, you can use them to target just because you know where the target is. Thinking about it, that's kind of lame, because by the same logic you could use thermo to see through walls and cast through walls, which is a big no-no. But my character is the mage so I doubt I'll call him on it. ;) So does this mean that a blind mage cannot cast spells on the material plane? |
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Dec 5 2007, 07:45 PM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
I had a blind mage and I had to be able to make a successful assensing test and identify them as a mundane before being able to fire a Ball Lightning at them.
Chris EDIT: then again my GM has as yet to use visual modifiers for guns OR for spells so... it really wouldn't matter in his game. His girlfriend is a mage as well and she gets petulant when you tell her to take a negative or that she can't do something so he just leaves it all alone. |
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Dec 5 2007, 07:45 PM
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#13
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
exactly that
with astral vision you can see everything, but you're casting on astral plane . . |
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Dec 5 2007, 07:50 PM
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#14
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Uhh, no Stahlseele. Yes, you could spend a simple action to astrally perceive, and then cast on the guy who is in full darkness that way. You are not casting on the astral plane. The spell is still on the physical plane, coming from your physical body, and hitting his physical body. You're just using the astral plane to see where to direct it.
Only mana spells cast from an astral mage (perceiving or projecting) at an astral being (spirit, perceiving/projecting mage) are actually cast ON the astral plane. Well, other mana spells like mana barrier are too, but this was the easiest example. |
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Dec 5 2007, 07:53 PM
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#15
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
You can, you just have to burn some simple actions to perceive. Then cast away. Then stop perceiving to avoid having spirits thwomp you from astral. Thermo doesn't let you see through walls, ever. Though, by that logic, if the mage got a radar sensor implanted, then your GM would let him target anything around him within 100m? |
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Dec 5 2007, 08:05 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Where are the rules concerning mages can only cast through cybereyes and not non-optical vision enhancers? I seem to have heard it before but I couldn't find the rules so I haven't enforced it. So far I've been letting our mage cast spells in darkness by using low-light vision contacts with no penalties.
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Dec 5 2007, 08:10 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275 |
I'd say it depends on the wall and depends on the thermal source. As an extreme example, you could see a person in behind one of those rice-paper japanese walls when you couldn't in the normal spectrum. Interestingly enough, my mage is a dwarf, so the infrared spectrum is in his normal spectrum. I guess he can cast past (infrared light transparent) barriers?
Just visual enhancements, not other sensors. |
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Dec 5 2007, 08:18 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275 |
From Page 173 of the Main Book: Physical cyber- or bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used. So visual enhancements installed in cameras mounted on eyeglasses or contacts do not allow targeting- they give the mage information on the distance of the object, not any astral connection for spell casting (which metahumans seem to only achieve via visual perception, direct contact or ritual). |
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Dec 5 2007, 08:20 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 12-October 03 From: Germany, Regensburg Member No.: 5,709 |
Core Book, p. 173: "Choosing the targets". Edit: Too late. |
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Dec 5 2007, 08:22 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 715 Joined: 4-September 05 From: Metaplane GEPLK136 (The one with the lizards. You remember the lizards, don't you?) Member No.: 7,684 |
It's my belief in general that if you are far enough from your target to need vision magnification, you have time to pull out some trusty optical binoculars. Also, what mods have what effects depends on your race. Here's a handy chart (because I do love me my tables!)
This shows the effective "bonus" to spell casting with the different mods (it's really canceling negatives, but it's easier to think of it as a bonus over the normal, negativly modified state.) Now, there are other benefits to getting full function cybereyes besides the ones listed here -- flare compensation being a big one. There is also the convenience of not having to carry around smart goggles (or contacts), vision enhancement goggles (or contacts), and a pair of optical binoculars. There are also style concerns, and a few other nifty eye mods out there, so it's up to you to weigh that against the added essence and nuyen costs over just the standalone eye mods. There are, of course, ways around being shut down by total darkness. Flashlights are fine, just don't hold it. As a mage, you're enough of a bullseye as is. Or, just summon a fire elemental. If it turns out there's trouble hiding in the darkness, well, you've just killed two birds with one stone. One big, fiery, angry stone. The one thing you seem to be stuck with though is if you are a dwarf or a troll, your spell casting can be shut down completely by thermal smoke if you don't invest in low-light cybereyes. Well, I guess there is another option to both the natural thermo and complete darkness effects: Just astrally perceive. Just hope that sheds some light (no pun intended) on the basic vision mods and cybereyes for mages dilemma. ************************************* One exciting piece of 'ware that hasn't been mentioned so far: the Daredrenaline gene mod from Augmentation. +1 to willpower tests -- it seems like it would give you an extra drain die for any tradition! Another from the "somewhat random" category is Skin Pockets. They're great for hiding your smaller focii in, if you are worried about loosing them. Lastly, I'm starting to think that shadowrunners should just be born with natural platelet factories. It seems that they are a good addition to pretty much every character. |
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Dec 5 2007, 08:23 PM
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#21
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
By RAW, radar is a visual enhancement. It even says "overlays (or replaces) the user's visual senses." |
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Dec 5 2007, 08:27 PM
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#22
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Thermal smoke is still light or heavy smoke as regular. Just because you turn off the thermo portion of your eyes doesn't mean you can suddenly see through the smoke too. You just don't get the negatives of thermal smoke, it just acts as regular smoke for your other vision.
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Dec 5 2007, 08:30 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 715 Joined: 4-September 05 From: Metaplane GEPLK136 (The one with the lizards. You remember the lizards, don't you?) Member No.: 7,684 |
Heavy smoke doesn't completely block vision (give a -6 modifier.) Thermo smoke *does* give that modifier to thermo users, while normal vision only gets a -4 to heavy smoke (even if it is thermo smoke.) So thermal smoke completely blinds the thermographically inclined, unless they can shut it off and rely on normal or low-light vision. (this is a good reason to avoid the bioware "Troll's Eyes" in augmentation, by the way.) |
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Dec 5 2007, 08:31 PM
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#24
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Yes, but my point was this. Thermal smoke to someone with thermal vision is -6. Turning off the thermal vision doesn't make it -0, it makes it -4 for regular heavy smoke, or -2 for regular light smoke. Your table makes it look as though turning off the thermal vision completely eliminates all penalty from the smoke, that isn't so.
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Dec 5 2007, 08:38 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Thanks guys, that helped alot.
And why can't a Troll adjust for smoke like humans can adjust for light and darkness? In my game I've let them use the best modifier. For instance, if there is light in a room and someone throws a thermal smoke, a Troll sees as good as a human (-4 for smoke), while if in a dark room a Troll sees as good as a human (-6 for total darkness and -6 for thermal smoke). IF said Troll had low-light vision also, and the darkness wasn't complete than I'd not give him any more penalties than a human with similar gear would have. I mean, you let humans chose the best between their natural darkvision (-6 in total darkness) and their vision enhancement (say thermo), so why not let Trolls and Dwarves do the same? You racists! ;) |
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