 FASA video game rights back where they belong |
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 Dec 20 2007, 04:41 AM
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#76
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Midnight Toker  Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456  |
Why have "best gear" at all? How about just having different gear?
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Dec 20 2007, 04:58 AM
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#77
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Well, the queen did drop that helicopter. You're still pissed off that I rolled on a Rigger item with my Street Sam, aren't you? |
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Dec 20 2007, 05:14 AM
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#78
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'm gonna go ahead and say it's impossible to design a game where every piece of gear, or even most pieces of gear, are equal. the mechanics are going to favor some pieces of gear over the rest. the only way around that is to make gear irrelevant. besides, if all gear is basically equal, then there's no need to grind for gear (not to mention you're now short a large set of rewards for gameplay). in an MMO, that's a bad thing. doing away with the gear grind means doing away with at least a quarter of the possible grinding options available--you're left with the xp grind, the cash grind, and the faction reputation grind. unless you're talking about designing a completely new massively multiplayer online experience (which isn't really what's being discussed), MMOs are--and should be--based around grinding. the reason for this is that new content is hard to produce, and it's impossible to produce at high rates without either spending a lot of money or accepting a lot of low-quality product. the current style of MMO can be played as long as the player can remain conscious at his keyboard, and there are a lot of players sitting at a lot of keyboards for a lot of hours in any successful MMO. to satisfy them, you need to give them repeatable content--and it's got to be repeatably enjoyable content. that means you'll need to explore every avenue available for grinding options and reward options, and that means you're pretty much stuck with +5 predators. |
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Dec 20 2007, 05:48 AM
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#79
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That may not be the only option, but I'll discuss that more if I do end up doing my thesis on that.
~J |
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Dec 20 2007, 06:21 AM
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#80
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
It is not necessary to have every piece of equipment be perfectly balanced so much as it is to be sure that different sorts of equipment are more useful in different situations. Certainly, no one would use a rocket launcher in CQC no matter how powerful it may be.
MMOs should be about immersive cooperative roleplaying (and, to some extent, worldbuilding). Games based around grinding really suck. Ideally, a MMO should mirror a tabletop game as much as is possible, just on a much larger scale. The pressure to create new content should be sufficiently alleviated by player roleplaying ad politicing, which should have the ability to significantly mold the game story and landscape. Some games have this, most of them are text-only. Unfortunately, graphics seem to get i the way of actual roleplaying. |
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Dec 20 2007, 06:49 AM
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#81
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
hundreds and hundreds of thousands of gamers disagree. hell, i disagree. the grinding has to be interesting, and it has to be challenging, and it has to be as nonrepetitive as possible. but it's a lot of fun, if done right. the reason why large-scale immersive cooperative roleplaying rarely works is that there's no good way to regulate roleplaying on a large scale. people have different roleplaying styles, and they don't all mesh well. some people want to play Neuromancer with elves, and some people want to play Lord of the Rings with smartlinks. and some people--the majority of people, based on the way most MMOs are played--want to game the system and be the best <insert party role here> they can be. if the reward system is automated, it's easy--even expected--for everyone will do their best to exploit it. most people simply don't care about the roleplaying opportunities available in MMOs. if you wanted to create an MMO in which roleplaying is the motive force for the majority of the players, you'd have to throw out everything you know about MMOs as they are currently designed and played, and start from a completely different mindset. you probably couldn't even advertise your game as an MMO, because if you did, you'd attract MMO players, and MMO players are the death of roleplaying. the reward system would have to be almost, if not completely, ungameable; huge portions of the NPC populace would need live, or partially live, control; and you'd have to pay hundreds of guys to constantly develop new content. the end result would not be anything most people would recognize as an MMO. |
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Dec 20 2007, 11:52 AM
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#82
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Yeah. I've heard nothing but bad stuff about World of Warcraft, from the few people that have ever played it. |
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Dec 20 2007, 01:32 PM
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#83
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Yeah, I personally hate the idea of grinding, but I still play WoW like an addict. I don't do the solo grinding thing very often, but even the guild activities I do are certainly grinding in a different form. Farming the high-end instances repeatedly is still a grind.
Right now, making grinding fun and appealing is the secret to a successful MMO. There are possibly other options, but no one has been successful with them yet. And personally, I don't see Shadowrun as a setting that is well served by the grinding MMO idea. I'd much rather see it as a squad-based FPS RPG, where you build your squad and can issue commands while on runs. The setting provides tons of material for a good story built on a series of runs and then you add a quality multiplayer experience for replayability. |
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Dec 20 2007, 02:50 PM
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#84
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 19-July 07 Member No.: 12,304 |
I think the Counterstrike style FPS that the most recent Shadowrun game used is the way to go. They just need to make the environments more true to the setting, and actually use the IP. Perhaps use a persistent character, too, with limits on development based on attribute caps and essence. The whole "hacker" thing would be hard to utilize in a team based FPS, but I suppose one player could control drones and/or security systems. I don't think the IP would handle the MMO model very well. And I definitely don't want to see the dice mechanics codified... the SR combat system is not that good, IMO. I play SR because I love the setting. |
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Dec 20 2007, 04:00 PM
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#85
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 698 Joined: 26-October 06 From: Iowa, United States Member No.: 9,720 |
Our Shadowrun got derailed for a couple hours discussing how we thought the Shadowrun MMO should be set up. I thought I'd post some of what I remember of our discussions on here.
-Guild Wars (WoW and City of Heros also use but not as the main) set up, most runs are done through instances. -This said, we don't want a World, we want Seattle or some other Major City, with effort going into what we have not how big it is. They can do expansion Hong Kong later if they want. -Many Instances would be able to Randomly Generate (Maps, Goons, etc.) for the basic Extraction, Wet Work, basic scenario runs. This results in more instances for less work. -City of Heros style contacts, ie Johnsons as well. -Triple Layer world, Physical, Astral, and Matrix, characters would be able to perform and view the different levels. Most Matrix could be done without entering the actual Matrix Layer (ie AR), but for hacking enter Matrix World. -At times, have no Jobs available except for a single "On the Run", that would basically be Lone Star is after you or such and you will have to perform a series of tasks to loose the heat. Probably some type of "Karma Cap" similar to Final Fantasy XI's. -Parts of the on the run might require you to get rid of particular items that have been compromised. -Getting high end gear would be an instance in itself, possibly stealing from a company. With the costs being paying the contacts, blackmarket for the information. -Death during a mission effectively would remove you from the mission (Luckily SR has quick stabilization/First Aid rules already in place to get you back on your feet, just remove the 1 try per wound and we're good), ie you receive no further Karma for the mission other than completion if your team still completes and reward for the same reason -Safehouses for teams! Customizable again in City of Hero's style. -Personal Pads, to store drones/vehicles things that aren't easily put into your pocket, or at least you shouldn't be seen regularly on the street with. Upgraded with Lifestyle investments! (You're monthly RL payments get you Squatter Lifestyle :grinbig:) -Drones basically summoner style pets, unless you jumped into them. -Yes we want vehicles! I don't know how to pull this off to make people happy, and keep realities in check. Some vehicles would be go anywhere (skates, skateboards, hoverboards...), Larger vehicles would need to go to your pad, or possibly have instances be within the space of a city block, so you could park in the instance. Or if the instance involves a chase you need a car for it. -Factions (Gangers, Runners, Lone Star, Doc Wagon) completely different style of instance, perhaps these would be sets of instances available so you could act as one or any of these based on reputations. Start out as ganger, and develop into different role depending on which instances you do. End result is a FPS, with the MMO flavor of reputation, equipment, and Karma. You develop a character instead of being thrown into a 30 minute arena with guns. We're on the side of we want the Shadowrun world, not an MMO as exists now. |
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Dec 20 2007, 04:14 PM
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#86
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Man... The idea of role-playing a Johnson just makes me drool... Imagine that, the corporation gives you a bankroll and a job, you decide how much you tell the team and how much you with-hold. I'd with-hold everything just for the fun of watching under-prepared groups get nuked.
And security-system designers! Can you imagine that! Maybe you get money for every Shadowrunner you kill, which you can then use to buy more machine-guns and neuro-stun. |
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Dec 20 2007, 04:29 PM
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#87
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 698 Joined: 26-October 06 From: Iowa, United States Member No.: 9,720 |
Heh Still more, on the concept of Drops.
-Very limited carrying capacity, larger pad, and safehouse storages. -Diablo II style carrying capacities, larger items result in less capacity -Add a weight restriction as well. -Can loot practically all goons for ammo/weapons. -Most Nuyen is gained from the instance runs payout. Most gear is bought, or crafted. Similar to Final Fantasy XI. Black Market Auction Houses. -Equipment should be very fluid, we're runners not investors. Very rarely should we become attached to an item, we need to be able to ditch it when the heat is on. This is a very FPS aspect, if you're out of ammo, loot and hope they have the type you need, or ditch your gun and steal the security guards. -Mages will be on the Nuyen train as well if they need to get materials for spells (not standard SR, but needed here for balance) -Cybered, have cost of cyber repair added on to your medical costs. -Hackers... Fry the commlinks, or even just the software, like Cybered they need to get their comms repaired at times. -Make Lifestyle Increases look very tempting, spiced with costs of repairs, to keep Nuyen from piling up. Pay your contacts once in a while. |
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Dec 20 2007, 05:54 PM
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#88
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I've been toying for a while with the idea of an asymmetric game—one "team" plays a real-time strategy game, allocating funds, hiring troops, designing chokepoints, all that, while the other "team" plays either a real-time tactical or first-person shooter-like game which starts at some semi-random time during the first team's game.
~J |
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Dec 20 2007, 07:23 PM
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#89
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Wa, USA Member No.: 1,139 |
MMOs dont have to be WoW!
Eve Online is very popular... The Matrix Online is still online... You don't need 100,000 + people to keep an MMO going. I had a friend who played SWG back when it first came out, he didn't grind at all, He put a band togeather and went from cantina to cantina playing music. I personally love crafting. In EQ2 I love decorating my apartment, I would rather spend my time doing that than dungeon diving. One of the big problems I have with WoW is you dont get a place of your own, and I find combat boring. So there is a segnificant number of people who will shell out $15 a month to not grind. Hell look at second life, its way more popular than WoW. |
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Dec 20 2007, 07:57 PM
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#90
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
MMOs don't have to be WoW, but the SR MMO that people are discussing--and that you yourself outlined on the previous page--is basically WoW with cyberware. i've said before that it might be possible to create an SR 'MMO' by completely ignoring the standard MMO paradigm.
and Matrix Online is not a model that should be copied by anybody. i could write pages on what a failure and a travesty MxO is. |
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Dec 21 2007, 03:55 PM
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#91
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 174 Joined: 21-May 06 Member No.: 8,583 |
Back to the main matter.
Doesn't anyone find it at all ironic that Microsoft, as a reward for treating FASA's intelectual property with bad faith, now gets to sell a temporary licence to Shadowrun to the original creator of the concept? :rotfl: |
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Dec 21 2007, 06:19 PM
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#92
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Wa, USA Member No.: 1,139 |
No, its not, read it again. I never suggested levels or the ability to run around killing things for XP. Yes, it has quests. Shadowrun the RPG IS QUESTS... so thats not really from WoW but rather the nature of the game itself. I also didn't suggest bigger badder gear drops from bosses. In fact I suggested no drops and that you buy all your gear. I did suggest using a skill tree ala diablo or WoW but thats because improving your skill from 5 to 6 without getting a new technique would be a bit dull. After all what does athletics of 6 mean? shouldnt a character with a score of 6 be able to do backflips and such that a character with a score of 1 can not? I did suggest classes but much like quests, classes have always been a part of the rpg (archtypes), though not as limiting as D&D because you could create your own. |
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Dec 21 2007, 06:45 PM
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#93
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it's still the same style of game as WoW, or EQ, or DAoC, MxO, or FFXI: you control a single player, run around and fight mobs, get quests from NPCs, and so on. your suggestions are just variations on that theme. i don't think that style of game can both be fun and remain true to the SR setting.
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Dec 23 2007, 08:55 AM
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#94
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Wa, USA Member No.: 1,139 |
Single Player, finds some buddies, gets a mission from a Johnson, goes does the run. Sounds a lot like the PnP Shadowrun to me. I'm not saying it has to be played that way but with DNA/DOA being the first adventure (other than food fight) I could totally see it fitting. I'm really curious now what Shadowrun is to you.
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Dec 23 2007, 09:02 AM
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#95
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Keep in mind that DNA/DOA was not really in the normal style of other Shadowrun adventures, being more af a 'dungeon crawl', which is kind of fitting, seeing that it was penned by Dave Arneson of D&D fame.
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Dec 23 2007, 09:37 PM
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#96
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yes, on the surface, it sounds like the PnP version. the resemblance is only skin deep, though, because people play WoW-style MMOs differently from the way they play tabletop RPGs. as i've said, people grind WoW-style MMOs. that means that everyone is going to do all the 'cool' content over and over again. i don't want to form a group every week to kill Lofwyr.
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Dec 23 2007, 09:55 PM
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#97
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 102 Joined: 9-June 07 Member No.: 11,880 |
That should not be an option
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Dec 23 2007, 10:16 PM
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#98
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
oh HELL YES it should . . old golden snout gave me enough trouble to justify that <.< . .
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Dec 24 2007, 01:29 PM
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#99
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Then make the game world dynamic. From what I hear, Eve does pretty well at that. It'll take a hell of a lot more coding, but it could be done. If done well, it'd blow most MMOs right out of the water. ...Though, it'd also mean people would come in specifically aiming to kill all the Big Names just to fuck with the system. So... |
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Dec 24 2007, 03:35 PM
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#100
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
I've played quite a bit of Eve. It is very different, but a Shadowrun MMO that used a system like Eve used would not be terribly familiar as Shadowrun.
Eve is purely an economy-based game. The whole political system of Eve is player-generated content encouraged by resource gathering. You could make a "Shadowrun" MMO built around black market economies in the Sprawl, but it'd be more like a "Gangs versus Syndicates" game than anyone's typical idea of Shadowrun. |
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