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> Magic Armors, Ruling opinion, Magic Question?
The Red Menace
post Dec 11 2007, 06:55 PM
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So for certain spells you roll Magic+Spellcasting and add the number of additional successes to the Force's damage or dispelling resistance. When rolling for armors do you add the number of additional successes to the character's armor force?
IE
Hungry Jack the magician has a Magic 5, Spellcasting 5. He decides before battle to cast an Armor spell on himself at force 5. He then rolls his Magic (5) + Spellcasting (5) and gets 3 additional successes. Is his armor rating a 5/5 with 3 successes over for dispelling resistance or is his armor rating 8/8?
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Karaden
post Dec 11 2007, 07:04 PM
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You need to go read the spell description.

The armor rating is equal to the hits scored. So in your example the spell would make a 3/3 armor. The force is just the upper limit on the number of hits you can get.
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Moon-Hawk
post Dec 11 2007, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE (Armor pg 202)
This spell creates a glowing field of magical energy
around the subject that protects against Physical damage. It
provides both Ballistic and Impact armor (cumulative with
worn armor) to the subject equal to the hits scored.

(Emphasis mine)
Neither. The armor rating in your example would be 3/3.
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The Red Menace
post Dec 11 2007, 07:38 PM
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Thanks for the info...and for proper clarity, it can not exceed the force of the spell?
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Moon-Hawk
post Dec 11 2007, 07:42 PM
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QUOTE (The Red Menace)
Thanks for the info...and for proper clarity, it can not exceed the force of the spell?

Correct. The Force of a spell always acts as an upper bound for the maximum number of spellcasting hits. You can have a spellcasting pool of 43 dice, but if it's a Force 2 spell only the first 2 hits will count.
So in your example, if the spellcaster scored 5 hits, the armor would be 5/5, but if the spellcaster scored 6 or more hits, the armor would still be 5/5 since the spell was cast at Force 5.
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Fortune
post Dec 11 2007, 07:46 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
You can have a spellcasting pool of 43 dice, but if it's a Force 2 spell only the first 2 hits will count.

Also keep in mind that the restriction is on total hits, not merely net hits in the case of opposed spells.
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DTFarstar
post Dec 11 2007, 08:11 PM
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Also keep in mind that edge opens that door again.
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Kyoto Kid
post Dec 11 2007, 09:30 PM
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...the downside of the spell though, as per the description, it glows.

Don't remember it doing that in earlier editions, but I could be wrong as I have played only one mage character ever and that was only for one session.
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psykotisk_overle...
post Dec 11 2007, 10:02 PM
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I'm pretty sure it glowed in SR3 as well.
Not that we ever included that side-effect in our games.
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Tarantula
post Dec 11 2007, 10:03 PM
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I'm pretty sure its always glowed.
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Cain
post Dec 11 2007, 11:24 PM
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It has.
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Whipstitch
post Dec 12 2007, 12:17 AM
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Yeah, which is why in all honesty, I vastly prefer Physical Barrier to the Physical Armor spell. Astral Armor fills a particular niche, I suppose, but Physical Barrier and Physical Armor have the same drain value and everything. Sure, you may have to reapply Physical Barrier on a case by case basis, and it can certainly collapse at any time, but you can't make an impromptu ramp, block an entrance or suddenly materialize a structure 5 wall (equivalent to small tree or ballistic glass!) in front of a speeding motorcycle with Physical armor, can you? I took out three pursuing lonestar squadcars once with a bit of Edge, a Physical Barrier and a Force 4 Spirit slinging Accident. Botched crash tests are hilarious.
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Stahlseele
post Dec 12 2007, 12:28 AM
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QUOTE
suddenly materialize a structure 5 wall (equivalent to small tree or ballistic glass!) in front of a speeding motorcycle with Physical armor, can you?

but imagine someone with a high force armor spell simply standing there and having the vehicle crash into him, totally deforming while he just stands there dusting himself off . . now that is a sight to behold *g*
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Whipstitch
post Dec 12 2007, 12:39 AM
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that'd be sweet if it happened, but since the RAW doesn't take into account the durability of whatever you hit into the ramming damage table, it's still vastly inferior to the physical barrier tactic, which never puts the caster at risk. In fact, by the RAW, it'd be easy to argue that a Force 1 barrier would be enough to make a Bulldog going 40 meters per turn resist half its body in damage when they collide. My own GM, however, believes that to be kind of stupid and reserves the right waive that extra damage potential and sticks with just the crash test when a vehicle hits something much less massive than it self. I think he's overreacting, however; most of the REALLY big vehicles have a hard time punching through their own armor, even when using their own body as a damage value. I guess he's still just annoyed by me always playing Mages and causing ridiculous numbers of crash tests with Accident and Barrier.

This post has been edited by Whipstitch: Dec 12 2007, 12:47 AM
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Ryu
post Dec 12 2007, 12:44 PM
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Echo all Whipstitch said on the usefullness of physical barrier.

Thats one spell I always wanted usage-based drain for - driving a semi into a barrier should make the mage choke his own blood. On the other hand, just having the barrier should not cause so much drain.

I would use the vehicles speed with the rammed objectives "body" on the RAW table. No force 1 barrier - nonsense.
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Stahlseele
post Dec 12 2007, 06:31 PM
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are there rules for the barrier crashing into targets or not?
Guy running/crashing into wall
Wall moving/crashing into guy
GM:"you see a shining wall form before you"
PC:"i brake!!"
GM:"ok, you make it. you stop mere inches before hitting the wall. ."
PC:"whoo! that was close!"
GM". . then the wall jumps at you and hits you in the frigging face!"
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Ryu
post Dec 12 2007, 06:56 PM
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I think all magical barriers are supposed to be immobile.
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Magus
post Dec 12 2007, 07:11 PM
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Its a PORTABLE WALL! Ya know kinda like a portable hole! LOL :nyah: :eek:
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Jhaiisiin
post Dec 12 2007, 08:21 PM
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Oh wow, that was funny. My mind just imagined the scene of a manifested earth spirit appearing as a wall, and once the runner gives that sigh of relief for stopping in time, the wall jumps and beats the snot out of him. Damned amusing. Thank you Stahlseele.
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Mercer
post Dec 12 2007, 08:48 PM
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I'm not sure if they're totally immobile or if they can be moved the way other spell effects can. Physical Barrier is descibed as (Environmental, Area), and sustained area effect spells can be moved as per Step 7: On Going Effects on page 174 of the main book. In previous editions, I think there was a limit on how fast you could move things (meters per turn, anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?) but in SR4 is just says, "the affected area may be moved with a complex action, anywhere within LOS."

Since this isn't TOON, and the barrier has no listed STR or Damage score, I'd rule that this isn't something you can use as a giant flyswatter. You might move the barrier a thousand meters in less than a second, but it doesn't slam into someone with all that force, it simply becomes a barrier in front of them. The Manipulation spells that used to do that (Punch, Clout and so on) got moved into Combat, which seems like a good enough reason to not make Barrier even more powerful versions of those spells.

Likewise, if you cast a barrier to block a doorway and then decide you'd rather block the doorway on the other side of the room, with a Complex Action you can just put the barrier over there, but it doesn't sweep across the room. That's how I'd rule it; although another GM might want the barrier to be blocked by objects and need a clear path to be moved. (My feeling is it's magic, and the caster already has to expend a Complex action, so it doesn't bother me. YMMV.)
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Tarantula
post Dec 12 2007, 09:27 PM
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I've gotta agree. You can move the barrier, but I'd rule it as simply phasing out and back into existence where you wanted it. Just kinda fade out and fade back in. At least that beats the giant flyswatter problem.
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Stahlseele
post Dec 12 2007, 10:11 PM
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QUOTE (Jhaiisiin)
Oh wow, that was funny. My mind just imagined the scene of a manifested earth spirit appearing as a wall, and once the runner gives that sigh of relief for stopping in time, the wall jumps and beats the snot out of him. Damned amusing. Thank you Stahlseele.

*bows* sank ju, sank ju, i'll be here a long time *g*
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Ryu
post Dec 12 2007, 10:16 PM
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Thanks! I was fully unaware of that possiblity!

Check me on this: Put a barrier into a sustaining focus. Leave the barrier at home. If you need it, call it into LOS. Then hide it away somewhere until you are home again.

Next, donĀ“t use the focus, sustain the spell yourself. Any problems crossing a mana barrier by having your barrier change location to the other side once you went over?
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Stahlseele
post Dec 12 2007, 10:20 PM
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another thing . . is there an official ruling on kitty pryde'ing? O.o
meaning, is there a ruling about manifesting such a barrier simply inside something else?
For example, if you can see that the barrier is 3m long and you see someone standing there and you can see both sides of him and draw the line where you want the barrier to be . . can that line be drawn through his body and will the barrier either trap his body or do . . something ugly?
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Whipstitch
post Dec 12 2007, 10:45 PM
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Mainlining magical power directly into a physical form until their head asplodes is called Powerbolt :silly:
Physical Barrier isn't Powerbolt and it's line of sight, so I imagine since you can't see "in" someone the spell would simply fail if it was attempted to be used in that way. Plus, the spell doesn't actually appear to displace things. Air and other molecules small enough to be unseen by the naked eye (and therefore don't interfere with LOS) actually pass right through the barrier like it's not even there. I suppose you could in theory make a spell that can exist simultaneously in the same space with larger objects, but then, what would the point of the spell be if it doesn't really interact with much of anything? :wobble:

As far as trapping people goes, yeah, that's easy; you can shape the barrier how you want and plopping a dome right over someone is something the spell is perfectly capable of.


Christ, I put waaay too much thought into this that really should be going towards finals.

This post has been edited by Whipstitch: Dec 12 2007, 11:08 PM
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