 The Sample Characters, We can do better! |
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 Dec 17 2007, 01:29 PM
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#26
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Awakened Asset  Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309  |
I´m all against teaching newbies to do such things. Optimisation was relegated to "other threads".
Am I "allowed" to buy armor mods? It is useful and the option should be introduced, but one can do without. Opinions? |
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Dec 17 2007, 01:44 PM
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#27
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
I'd say go for it, armor mods are great. The fact that the Covert Ops character in the book doesn't have thermal damping built into their chameleon suit always hit me as mildy upsetting. It's a chameleon suit for chrissake! Who cares if thermal damping is illegal? You shouldn't be wearing the silly thing anywhere you can afford to be seen at in the first place.
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Dec 17 2007, 03:39 PM
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#28
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
In fact, not being seen while wearing it is kind of the point, no?
Chris |
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Dec 17 2007, 04:55 PM
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#29
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Isn't the point of the sample characters a sampling of the type of PCs that can be created and what can be done to create them? In fact, I would encourage optimisation, because these will be the first PCs that the new players come into contact with, show them what is effective and then once they are more experienced, they can make their own PCs if they want. |
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Dec 17 2007, 06:09 PM
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#30
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
..technical glitch. Left the converter brick to my notebook computer at a friend's house this weekend. Will post finished character tomorrow evening.
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Dec 17 2007, 07:06 PM
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#31
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Target Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,811 |
I was wondering about some of those characters, I figured the people who made some of them hadn't played the game yet
looking forward to seeing some of these results |
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Dec 17 2007, 09:18 PM
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#32
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I look at it the other way, that the sample characters are representative of the "average" shadowrunners out there, in part because they're the goto pile for on-the-fly npcs and because they're the characters most likely to be picked up by players totally new to the system. They should be competant, but not amazing. I think that helps new players learn the system too, since once they start learning the rules they can see how to make that good character great, and then they can tackle the character creation system. I was particularly disappointed with the Archetypes in SR3, not because they were bad characters, but because they were too specific. The Street Sam with his cyberarm was a good example. If I need a Str Sam on the fly, I want something like the SR2 (which was pretty much the SR1) Str Sam: Dermal, Muscle, Wired, and maybe a spur. What would be more useful would be to have multiple versions of each, say like a speed-based sammie, a brick, and a generic one that's versatile. At that point we're not so much making archetypes as a database of characters (which isn't a bad idea either). |
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Dec 17 2007, 09:47 PM
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#33
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Thats the way I see it, Mercer. The archtypes should be working horses of their profession. The player can always specialise the archtype when building his char. But someone playing an archtype should never lack the skill to do anything plausible for his char.
Ex. Firearms group. One can make do with automatics alone, or with pistols. Easy to save points for some other skills. But one generally would want a char that can fire any firearm he might come across. Archtypes should favour the latter, more realistic approach. Or close combat group. With some cyberware, Unarmed is sufficient. But my ganger will allow for basball-bats and axes as a weapon, so there will be the Close Combat Group. -- Regardless of archtypes or not, my chars tend to have mostly groups as skills. Its more well rounded. Pistols/Rifles/Unarmed is an exception for combat-light chars. |
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Dec 18 2007, 01:22 AM
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#34
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
The point of the archetypes, I believe, was to be relatively generic to allow for some customization.
The relative sophistication and experience of the character will factor into the concept, as well as the role focus - generalist? Specialist? High speed, bleeding edge runners? Newbies out to make name? All of those decisions will affect the numbers of a character being played. Just my two yen. -Siege |
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Dec 18 2007, 01:25 AM
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#35
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
I see the sample PCs as a demo of what is allowed. If the rules allow Mr Lucky, make a PC with that in mind and fit him into whatever archetype you wish and when the new players see that, they will know that Mr Lucky is an intentional part of the game mechanic. If the rules allow Mr Pornomancer, then create one, it doesn't have to be too extreme. If Incompetence: Something Useless is part of the game, then showcase it in another archetype. Show the new players the nuances and quirks of the system, use the sample characters to answer the players questions. Instead of - Player: "Can I make such and such a PC, using X, Y, Z? Is it legal?" GM: "I dunno..." To Player: "Can I make such and such a PC, using X, Y, Z? Is it legal?" GM: "Yes. Sample PC X is an example." |
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Dec 18 2007, 01:29 AM
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#36
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Personally, I don't think the sample PCs should be optimized to the max. They are supposed to be an inspiration, or sampling of what's available to PCs, as well as being usable as NPCs. I don't think they fill both roles adequately while being totally pimped out.
I also think that the sample characters should be limited in gear and abilities to those listed in the Core Book. Some people may not have access to some of the other 'advanced' rule books, and would find the non-core items confusing or even irritating. |
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Dec 18 2007, 01:37 AM
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#37
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Agreed. Which is why you do not put all the optimisation tricks into the same sample PC. You spread the love out. One PC gets Lucky, the other is a pornomancer, yet another is Incompetent, etc. You showcase some of the optimisation tricks like the mage getting Spellcasting(Combat Spells) and Counterspelling(Combat Spells) and Summoning. You do not need to create a Lucky Pornomancer who cannot fly a hotair balloon to save his life. |
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Dec 18 2007, 01:50 AM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 170 Joined: 23-March 06 From: Drowning in the pollution of Mass Bay Member No.: 8,401 |
I call the Weapons Specialist (I've had her a while, and had Squinky draw her.)
“Greenwich Gunner,� female Human Weapons Specialist B 3 A 4 R 5 S 4 C 2 I 4 L 4 W 4 E 3 Phys. Track 10 Stun 10 IP 1 Initiative: 8 Essence 5.45 Synthetic Low-Light Vision Natural Immunity 1, Sensitive Neural Structure, Mild Tobacco Addiction Automatics 5 Pistols 4 Longarms 4 Perception 3 Armory 2 Close Combat Group 3 Dodge 2 Ground Craft 2 Watercraft 2 Ettiquette 2 Survival 2 Tracking 2 Infiltration 2 Heavy Weapons 2 Local Arms Dealers 4 Military Tactics 3 Journalism 2 Literature 2 (Sci-fi +2) English: N Sioux: 3 Japanese: 2 French: 2 Bioware: Cat’s Eyes Cyberware: Obvious Left Leg (Rating 2 armor, Str. 4 Body 4 Agility 4) Contacts: Fixer 3/2 Arms Dealer 2/2 Street Doc 2/2 6 Months Low Lifestyle, 1800 Cash on Hand Colt Manhunter + 10 Clips, Silencer, Concealable Holster, Sound Suppressor, Smartlink + 1000 rounds regular ammunition FN HAR + 6 Spare Clips + 700 rounds explosive ammunition HK MP-5 TX + 5 Spare Clips + 720 rounds explosive ammunition Survival Knife, Sword Suzuki Mirage Motorcycle Armor Jacket and Helmet with rating 3 Chemical protection, fire resistance nonconductivity and rating 2 insulation. Rating 6 Fake SIN, Rating 4 Fake SIN, Rating 4 Fake Firearms License, Erika Elite Comm/w Iris Orb OS, Skinlink, Subvocal mike, 2 printers, Tag Eraser, Micro-Transceiver, 20 Datachips, Rating 6 White Noise Generator, Binoculars w/ Thermographic, Vision Magnify and Flare Compensation, Goggles with Smartlink, Flare Compensation, Thermographic and Vision Magnify, 4 Flashlights, Rating 6 Chemsuit, Rating 6 Medkit and 2 reloads, Survival Kit, Gas Mask, GPS. This woman is a former soldier in the CAS; when the Crash of ’67 hit she ran off because military life disagreed with her. She made her way to the UCAS after spending some time in Sioux country. |
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Dec 18 2007, 02:07 AM
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#39
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Tobacco is specifically listed as not being a valid Addiction.
Rating 4 is the highest you can get within the Availability rules. |
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Dec 18 2007, 03:03 AM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 170 Joined: 23-March 06 From: Drowning in the pollution of Mass Bay Member No.: 8,401 |
I must not have seen those... But this means I'd have to go back and rework the character! |
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Dec 18 2007, 03:04 AM
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#41
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
I think the core only is important, which is why I haven't posted an otherwise great mage build that needs an intuition tradition. I do agree with fortune as well on what is important in a sample character, but I'd rather like to make an additional point - a sample character should have good 'bones' and maybe a paragraph or two of advice on how to tailor the character to meet a players objections - something like 'You can swap your conjuration and assensing skills to take the characater from a utility mage to a more focused summoner' for example. |
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Dec 18 2007, 03:06 AM
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#42
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I'll take a swing at an alternate Street Samurai, built for toughness more than speed.
[ Spoiler ]
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Dec 18 2007, 04:14 AM
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#43
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
I agree with you on both counts. The whole point of a sample character is that it's a guildeine to what's possible. It's not a substitute for the hyper-optimized characters that really get the gold in SR4, it's to give people solid characters they can mess around with. Still, on point 2, I do disagree inasmuch as I just want to keep things simple. If using SM or Aug is simpler (which doesn't ahppen a whole lot, but does happen) then feel free. Otherwise, stick to the simple stuff. |
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Dec 18 2007, 04:21 AM
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#44
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Covert Ops Specialist
[ Spoiler ] I had a slightly different version with Sensitive System (as well as an EXTREMELY different Ork Adept built with SM & Aug, think ninja) but I decided that's a bit much to saddle a mundane with, since I don't really feel like cutting off an entire avenue of growth, even if I did purposely avoid taking cyberware in order to avoid setting off scanners. Generally speaking, there's two flavors of covert ops characters: stealthy commando death machines and mission impossible types where you get in, get out and nobody realizes that anything's wrong until they find a stripped guard unconscious in the janitor's closet and realize the prototype is missing. I went with the latter, and as such I went in hard on the character's main specialties: Athletics, stealth and impersonation. This character is nearly as good of a human athlete as you can get with just the mainbook plus she's quite stealthy, very observant and overall is very capable of breaking into a place, ambushing someone and wearing their clothes out of the building. :grinbig: That said, the character is no combat monster, but then again, it wasn't intended to be (we're saving the twink olympics contenders for later, right?); she's all about B&E and hopefully only attacking when she's got the jump on the opposition, preferably using a combat drug and some Edge to ensure victory. Hope you guys like it. This post has been edited by Whipstitch: Jan 10 2008, 03:55 PM |
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Dec 18 2007, 06:34 AM
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#45
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
In a throwback to SR2 (or maybe SR1, in the Sprawl Survival Guide), I present to you, the... Ork Mercenary [ Spoiler ]
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Dec 18 2007, 03:55 PM
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#46
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I like his quote. I definitely old school SR. |
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Dec 18 2007, 05:46 PM
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#47
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,244 Joined: 2-August 07 Member No.: 12,442 |
I'm working up an Occult Investigator. I'll have him/her up shortly.
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Dec 18 2007, 05:49 PM
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#48
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...Likewise, Gunslinger Adept coming tonight after I get off work now that I have the adapter from my notebook back.
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Dec 18 2007, 06:08 PM
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#49
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The basic Bounty Hunter archetype description implies that he is supposed to be good at finding things. He's supposed to be a go-to man for tracking down escaped convicts, vicious paracritters, and missing persons. The presented archetype is none of these things. Rolling 5 dice when looking for clues, 6 dice when following a trail, only 2 dice when following a target, just 1 die for asking around, and literally zero dice for legwork on the Matrix, this character is essentially incapable of doing his job. So yeah, let's make one that works better.
Goal: Be halfway competent at a broad spectrum of non-magical legwork while still being able to stand up in a fight. Be able to run down anyone who isn't jacked up on the Movement power. Secondary Goal: This character is supposed to be good at his job, but he is not supposed to overshadow a party face or hacker if there is a specialist in the group. Bounty Hunter “I'm gonna get you, sucka!� [ Spoiler ] So how did we do? Well, our Bounty Hunter rolls 14 dice to find clues, 8 dice to find things through the Matrix or face to face, and has an Intimidation pool which is probably bigger than anyone elses (8 dice base and he is a big scary Ork). In combat he has a rifle and a stun baton, both of which he handles with moderate skill (10 Dice). He gets three initiative passes, and rolls 12 dice dodging bullets when on full defense. He also has a built in abusive tactic, where he can drop nausea gas and switch to internal air while moving to full cover. Then he can wait opponents out. Weaknesses: At just 7 dice for sneaking, he's no super all star on the stealth squad. His Tracking and Shadowing Dicepools are only 6 – no better than the original archetype. -Frank |
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Dec 18 2007, 06:40 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 8-November 07 Member No.: 14,097 |
I get the impression my POV is quite a bit different from most on this board. 10 dice to me seems like a lot, not "moderate skill", when the average professional gets 6 dice in their field (3 + 3). (I suppose I'm missing something, as well, but I only count 8 dice for combat - AG6 + 2 skill.) DS |
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