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> damage overflow and death, rule issue
wind_in_the_ston...
post Dec 18 2007, 05:44 AM
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Most of the rules for dying when you fill your condition monitor say that you lose more boxes over time, when your condition monitor is exceeded.
QUOTE
(pages 153 and 244, SR4.)

If a character takes more physical damage than he has boxes...
Characters whose physical damage has overflowed...
Characters who exceed their physical condition monitor and enter into overflow damage...

That all leads me to believe that if you have ten boxes, and you take ten points of damage, you're unconscious but not dying (imminently). If you'd taken eleven, you'd start taking additional damage.

But there's one sentence that contradicts this. The paragraph titled "Unsconsciousness." It says, If the physical track is filled in, however, the character is near death and will die unless stabilized. This leads me to believe that if all your boxes are filled in, with no overflow, you start taking additional damage.

So which is correct? Do we go with the wording in the sections directly related to the rules which cover applying the extra damage, and assume that the lone sentence in the Unconsciousness section is an error?

Or do we assume that that one is correct and the other sections tell us what to do when that happens? That doesn't make sense to me, but there aren't any rules covering what to do otherwise. A character with his condition monitor filled, but no overflow must be stabilized before being healed, but is not in imminent danger of taking more damage?

Which makes sense from a role-playing standpoint? Once you've taken that much physical damage, what are your chances of survival? Will you pretty much die in the next thirty seconds? Is there a naturally achieved "critical but stable" state?

Where is the error?
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Tarantula
post Dec 18 2007, 05:53 AM
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The error is with you.
153, Unconciousness, "If the physical track is filled in, however, the character is near death and will die unless stabilized. (see Healing, 242)

Going to 242 under healing, and finding stabilization (since thats the section we were referrenced to (though the page number was wrong)...
244, stabilization... "If the character's condition is not stabilized, she will take an additional box of damage every (Body) combat turns from blood loss, shock, and other things that affect a body on the brink of death."

Thusly, having a full physical damage track you take one box of damage every body turns.
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kzt
post Dec 18 2007, 06:44 AM
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You can use this per RAW, but this means that all accident victims die, as it is hard to get an ambulance there in 90 seconds after the crash. IMNSHO it's another example of a totally insane rule that actively tries to undermine the sense of reality that is needed by any game that combines technology with magic.
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mfb
post Dec 18 2007, 07:57 AM
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eh, there's two sides to that. the thing is, if you don't have overflow work ridiculously fast, then nobody will ever die unless someone fills their damage overflow directly (eg, shooting them five times in the head), or there aren't enough dice available. 90 seconds is a really short period of time--unless you work with the insane efficacy and economy of motion that is possible when you're tracking everything in combat turns. 90 seconds is thirty rounds. that's enough time for anybody to stabilize anybody, unless the guy attempting CPR simply can't work up a big enough dice pool to beat the threshold.
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Mercer
post Dec 18 2007, 08:44 AM
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I think there should be some sort of test, however difficult, for self-stabilization. Maybe Threshold 3+ the number of boxes of overflow. Maybe 2+. You run into the problem of most pc's self-stabilizing (if pc survival can really be considered a problem), as well as orks and trolls unless they're heavy into overflow, but isn't being hard to kill what being tough is all about? Anybody serious about killing somebody will spend a few extra bullets to exceed the overflow.

On the low side (for a pc) a BOD: 3 gives 9 Combat Turns, on the high side, a BOD: 10 gives you 100 Combat Turns. Given that a Stabilization test is apparently a Complex Action, inside of the combat round its not that hard to pull off. Outside of combat, its a lot less likely (although that troll is going to be bleeding out for five whole minutes, so the ambulance might get to him).

I'm just not a big fan of mathematical certainty, I guess. If every person with a BOD: 3 dies exactly 27 seconds after they go unconscious, that seems a little odd to me.
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DTFarstar
post Dec 18 2007, 12:32 PM
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QUOTE (SR4. pg. 244 under Stabilization)
If the stabilization fails, the character
continues to take damage until she dies.
Additional stabilization tests may be made,
at a cumulative –2 dice pool modifier per
test.


All the time in the world doesn't matter if you don't get it in the first few tests.

Chris
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Kool Kat
post Dec 18 2007, 01:59 PM
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90 seconds is plenty of time in Shadowrun time since Shadowrunners on average move at 72 MPH given the movement rules. :D
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DTFarstar
post Dec 18 2007, 02:40 PM
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QUOTE (Kool Kat @ Dec 18 2007, 07:59 AM)
90 seconds is plenty of time in Shadowrun time since Shadowrunners on average move at 72 MPH given the movement rules.  :D

Wha? Maybe my math is off but I'm getting a much lower number- still high mind you, but a lot lower than that.

Humans, Elves, and Orcs -
25 meters per combat turn(3s) * 3.281 feet per meter * 20(combat turns in a minute) * 60(minutes in an hour) = 98430 feet per hour / 5280 feet in one mile = 18.642 mph

Dwarves -

20 meters per combat turn(3s) * 3.281 feet per meter * 20(combat turns in a minute) * 60(minutes in an hour) = 78744 feet per hour / 5280 feet in one mile = 14.914 mph

Trolls -

35 meters per combat turn(3s) * 3.281 feet per meter * 20(combat turns in a minute) * 60(minutes in an hour) = 137802 feet per hour / 5280 feet in one mile = 26.099 mph

Per 4 dice in a Sprinting Test(buying hits for average and cause I'm lazy) -

2 meters per 4 dice in Sprinting Test * 3.281 feet per meter * 2 simple actions an initiative pass * 4 initiative passes in a combat turn * 20 combat turns a minute * 60 minutes per hour = 15748.8 feet per hours / 5280 feet in one mile = +11.931 mph per 4 dice in the sprinting test.

72 miles per hour * 5280 feet per mile / 60 minutes per hours / 20 combat turns / 3.281 feet per meter = 96.556 meters per combat turn.

I would assume that in your game the move speed is walking 10 meters per initiative pass and running 25 meters per initiative pass? That is the only way I can figure you think runners move at 72 mph.

Chris

EDIT: As an addendum to the above here is why that is wrong

QUOTE ( SR4 pg. 138)
MOVEMENT RATE
The movement rates for each metatype are noted on the
Movement Table. Th is rate is the distance the character moves by
that method per Combat Turn (not per Initiative Pass).
If a character mixed his modes of movement during a
Combat Turn and it becomes important to know exactly how
far the character moved in a particular pass, simply divide his
Movement Rate by the number of passes in that turn.


Emphasis mine - also just so you know I'm not trying to be a complete and total jackass, we made that mistake when we started too and didn't notice the above quote. We realized our error after a SS ran and killed 3 people in 3 separate corners of a parking lot during a run. He covered like 110 meters using sprint actions during the pass he couldn't kill someone. Made me take a LONG hard look at the movement rules and find that.

DOUBLE EDIT: Just noticed that you would need a Troll with 16 dice on his sprinting test to reach approximately 72 mph. It is scary that a troll can do that. Hehe, would they be subject to the vehicle ramming/crash rules at speeds that high?
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DireRadiant
post Dec 18 2007, 02:48 PM
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NPC accident victims aren't PCs and I don't track their bleeding to death.

PC with damage overflow bleed so that there is dramatic tension each combat turn and so that the combat turn matters.
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Ustio
post Dec 18 2007, 03:23 PM
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QUOTE
2 meters per simple action * 3.281 feet per meter * 2 simple actions a combat turn * 20 combat turns a minute * 60 minutes per hour = 15748.8 feet per hours / 5280 feet in one mile = +2.987 mph per 4 dice in the sprinting test.


Dont forget that if youve got multiple passes thats more sprint actions which can add up quite quickly
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hobgoblin
post Dec 18 2007, 03:35 PM
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im starting to suspect that the overflow time was edited without a numbers check. either that or whoever worked on the gear section lifted the docwagon contract part wholesale, as it still talks about "within 10 minutes or free"...
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Redjack
post Dec 18 2007, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE (Ustio)
Dont forget that if youve got multiple passes thats more sprint actions which can add up quite quickly

Movement only occurs once per combat turn, though the potential for multiple sprint actions (once per pass) does potentially compound the problem... Though in contrast it does give more of the bionic man/woman effect...
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Kyoto Kid
post Dec 18 2007, 04:44 PM
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..umm, how did we get from overflow damage to movement...?

interesting [derail]
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Mercer
post Dec 18 2007, 07:49 PM
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QUOTE (DTFarstar)
All the time in the world doesn't matter if you don't get it in the first few tests.

I was going to mention that First Aid Stabilizations are easy unless you blow the first roll, but my post was getting too long. (My theory is that most people don't read past the first two paragraphs anyway.) But:

A rating 6 First Aid kit is 600 nuyen, or considering the fact it can save a character's life, pocket change. A Threshold (2) with 6 dice isn't that bad, even if no one in the group has the actual skill. If they blow that first roll, it gets dicey (or less dicey, technically). If someone in the group has the skill and a decent Logic, 12 dice isn't that difficult to get with the medkit, and so that means they have to blow four consecutive Stabilization tests before the Threshold (2) starts looking unlikely. (Of course, if someone has blown four Stabilization (2) tests in a row with 12, 10, 8, and 6 dice, "unlikely" may have to be redefined.)

It seems like for Stabilization of an average guy, you have 9 rounds to pull off a relatively easy test. 9 rounds is itself a pretty long time in combat, most combats I see tend to be in the 2-5 round range. For most pc's, you're probably looking at 16 or more rounds. That's a long enough period of time to make me wonder if Combat Turns are the best way to track bleeding out.

Now, filling in your PDT without going into overflow is something of an accomplishment itself, since its just as likely when you get dropped you will already be into Overflow. Gone are the days of the Deadly Wound that dropped you at exactly 10 boxes (gone are the days of everybody having 10 boxes, for that matter). But even so, if there is a mechanical reason to get to a pc at all, you have several rounds to do it. I understand that there should be some drama in the Stabilization rolls, but the system seems to have gone out of its way to make it something that can be regularly accomplished in combat.

Which is fine. Outside of combat, unless you're a BOD: 10 troll, its almost impossible though. What's the point of having a DocWagon contract since if you ever had to rely on it, they'd never get there in time? (Unless you were raiding a DocWagon compound and they're the ones that dropped you, in which case it'd probably be a pretty good investment.)

From a game design standpoint, I really don't like a rule that says, "You're character is dying, there is nothing you can do about it," you know? I say give the pc's a roll, make it difficult, make it so that it just slows the dying process down, but give them something to do other than flip through the character creation chapter while the clock ticks.

Also, I'd like to see some Shock and Bleeding rules for wounds below Unconscious. I guy takes 8 boxes from a shotgun blast, I think there should be more to it that, "I'm okay, -2 dice pools, no problem. Ain't got time to bleed. As long as I don't pass out, cuz if I do I'll be dead in a matter of seconds."
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DTFarstar
post Dec 18 2007, 11:10 PM
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Something else to keep in mind if the healing modifiers table, I'm assuming most places that you suffer from physical overflow will at least qualify as poor conditions(I mean what with the bullets and blood and everything), and I generally slap most people with uncooperative patient unless they are unconscious( which they would be in this example, but most people don't know enough to get the hell out of their own way when they haven't just been shot. Being shot typically does not notably improve someone's common sense.) and for PCs anyway, the essence loss and/or magician penalties are also fairly common. So are wound modifiers on the healing party as well, at least in my games. So all in all it isn't uncommon for someone to be looking at a -2 to -6 before missing the first test.

Chris

EDIT: Also, sorry, in my above calculations, I mean that to be 2 sprint actions per initiative pass not combat turn. I just meant to calculate the advantage 4 sprinting dice gives you, and forgot and basically doubled it assuming you were doing nothing but running. I should have either set it as per sprint action or per combat turn, not some bastardized offspring of both. I'll fix it.
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FriendoftheDork
post Dec 19 2007, 12:45 AM
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I changed the time from turns to minutes. Yeah, it means PC death will be very rare from overflow, but it CAN happen if the whole party is down or if they are seperated. In those cases docwagon contracts may be worth it's weight in gold.

It's impossible to make a 100% foolproof system, as RL death and dying varies too much. A person can bleed to death in seconds or in 10 minutes. Or die after 3 days of infection.

The D&D system for dying is actually quite nice - as PCs can easily die in seconds but if you self-stabilize you can last hours, and if you stabilize again days. Of course since stabilization is so easy you never have to self.stab. for long.
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mfb
post Dec 19 2007, 03:53 AM
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it's a little more complex, but rather than making the recovery test an either/or proposition, i think it should scale with successes. for every success you achieve on the recovery test, it ups the timeframe by a notch. if you get no successes, you take damage at a box per turn. if you get one hit, you take a box per minute. two hits, a box per ten minutes. three, a box per half-hour. four, a box an hour. five, you stop taking damage.
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hyzmarca
post Dec 19 2007, 04:18 AM
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With a sufficiently-fed Bloodzilla providing Movement, Docwagon ambulances can travel faster than the speed of light, violating casualty and allowing them to arrive at the scene before the fatal wound is received.
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Tarantula
post Dec 19 2007, 06:10 AM
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Also, most accident victims would probably wouldn't be in overflow.

Taking Joe Average 3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3 in a mercury comet driving down the highway. The car has a top sustained speed of 110meters/combat turn (roughly 80miles an hour according to google). He hits a GMC bulldog going the other way.

Since his speed is between 61-200meters then the damage done is bodyx2. In this case, 20. Except the ramming vehicle takes half that, back down to 10. Body 10 + armor 6 = 16 dice, trade in for 4 hits, means the comet takes 6 damage. Pretty seriously hurt, but not completely destroyed. Joe Average has to resist the damage too. Body 3, and 6 armor (from the car) is an average of 3 hits, dropping it to 7 damage taken. Not dead, just injured severely.

(Joe average in the GMC bulldog has to resist the full 20, his bulldog is destroyed with 14 damage, and he resists the 20 damage with 3 body + 8 armor, for roughly 4 damage resisted. Takes 16 damage. Hes dead outta the gate.)
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Kyoto Kid
post Dec 19 2007, 07:17 AM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
With a sufficiently-fed Bloodzilla providing Movement, Docwagon ambulances can travel faster than the speed of light, violating casualty and allowing them to arrive at the scene before the fatal wound is received.

...because their R&D dept perfected the Infinite Improbability Drive.
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hobgoblin
post Dec 19 2007, 09:49 AM
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QUOTE (Tarantula)
Also, most accident victims would probably wouldn't be in overflow.

Taking Joe Average 3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3 in a mercury comet driving down the highway. The car has a top sustained speed of 110meters/combat turn (roughly 80miles an hour according to google). He hits a GMC bulldog going the other way.

Since his speed is between 61-200meters then the damage done is bodyx2. In this case, 20. Except the ramming vehicle takes half that, back down to 10. Body 10 + armor 6 = 16 dice, trade in for 4 hits, means the comet takes 6 damage. Pretty seriously hurt, but not completely destroyed. Joe Average has to resist the damage too. Body 3, and 6 armor (from the car) is an average of 3 hits, dropping it to 7 damage taken. Not dead, just injured severely.

(Joe average in the GMC bulldog has to resist the full 20, his bulldog is destroyed with 14 damage, and he resists the 20 damage with 3 body + 8 armor, for roughly 4 damage resisted. Takes 16 damage. Hes dead outta the gate.)

i could have sworn that to be the ramming vehicle, one have to perform a "ramming" action...
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Mercer
post Dec 19 2007, 11:25 AM
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QUOTE (Tarantula)
(Joe average in the GMC bulldog has to resist the full 20, his bulldog is destroyed with 14 damage, and he resists the 20 damage with 3 body + 8 armor, for roughly 4 damage resisted. Takes 16 damage. Hes dead outta the gate.)

I really don't see why when two vehicles collide head-on, one takes less damage because it instigated it. (But then, SR vehicle damage has always been screwy.)

But that's not the meeting we're having right now. It isn't so much that crash victims won't have full Damage Tracks, rather for me its an issue of people are either basically fine (7 boxes, -2 dice, penalized but not crippled in your example), or they're dead in a matter of seconds. If this were the case, no one would ever wake up in a hospital after an accident, they'd be dead on the scene. ER's would be replaced with drive-thru morgues. There'd be no need for ambulances, because people would either be able to drive themselves to the hospital, or they'd be dead before the ambulance was out of the hospital parking lot. It seems like there is ample room for some middle ground.
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Moon-Hawk
post Dec 19 2007, 04:16 PM
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QUOTE (mfb)
it's a little more complex, but rather than making the recovery test an either/or proposition, i think it should scale with successes. for every success you achieve on the recovery test, it ups the timeframe by a notch. if you get no successes, you take damage at a box per turn. if you get one hit, you take a box per minute. two hits, a box per ten minutes. three, a box per half-hour. four, a box an hour. five, you stop taking damage.

I don't really have anything to add to this, I'm just quoting it because I think it's a really good suggestions and no one seems to have noticed. :)
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Karaden
post Dec 19 2007, 07:02 PM
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Maybe, but that makes properly stabalizing a person very hard. I mean average medical personel will have 3 logic, 4 skill, and a rating 6 medkit. That gives them a dice pool of 13, which is 3 bought hits, meaning that trained professionals won't be able to stabelize the person, and this isn't even dealing with them being in subpar conditions.

Now, I have no problem with docwagon getting on scene, slowing the bleeding, and then having to take them off to the hospital, but your going to have to add more then what you currently have.

What may work better however is an extended test, and would work something like this:

Extended test Logic+First Aid (6, complex action)
Each time this extended test is compleated, you remove 1 box for purposes of bleeding on the stabilization table. Rolls in which no progress is made mean that future rolls are made with a -2 DP, a glitch means that you have used up five 'does' of your first aid supplies, a critical glitch means that you add one box for purposes of bleeding on the stabilization table. (As a note for this to work out properly with medkits, you'll want to increase how many times they can be used by about 5 times or so)

Stabilization table:
0 boxes overflow: bleed 1 box every hour
1 boxes overflow: bleed 1 box every half hour
2 boxes overflow: bleed 1 box every ten minutes
3 boxes overflow: bleed 1 box every minute
4-5 boxes overflow: bleed 1 box every 30 seconds
6+ boxes overflow: bleed 1 box every combat turn

*edit* This allows people to not be in real danger if they are just unconcious, unless they are alone in a back ally or some such, but quickly adds danger as the bleeding gets more serious. You may want to play around with the number of boxes to hit each catagory or how much you bleed at each one based on how life threatening you want your game. Same goes with the threshhold for the extended test.

As a final note, allow excess hits to be automaticly applied on the next extended test (assuming more then one is needed)
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mfb
post Dec 19 2007, 07:11 PM
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that's one solution. you could also simply have further stabilization attempts build on previous attempts, with each further attempt incurring the cumulative -2 dice pool modifier. so the EMT arrives, uses his 13 dice to get 3 hits, slowing the overflow damage to one box per half-hour. he then tries again, using his 11 dice (13 -2 for second attempt), getting another 2+ hits, completely stabilizing the patient. that's a bit too easy, so maybe in addition to (or instead of) the -2 dice pool mod per attempt, you could add +1 threshold per attempt.
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