Is it just me, or is stunball off the charts? Options

[Ddays]

Yeah, but the guy who decides to branch out usually gets gimped cause he can't compete with the specialists.

A guy with a rating 1 in anything is way more of a liability than a guy who didn't take the skill at all, because the rating 1 runner is more likely to try, then fail.

[Siege]

There's gimped and then there's gimped.

Comparing 6 dice to 1 die, yes - the specialist wins as well she should.

6 dice to 3 or 4 dice? Still enough to be useful without threatening the specialist.

And if the specialist is otherwise unavailable, those 3 or 4 dice can be amazingly useful.

-Siege

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

[DTFarstar]

Make sure to apply visual modifiers to targetted spells. I'm assuming the mage in question(magic 6 you said) does not in fact have cyber eyes? If not toss in some smoke and all kinds of stuff like that that is dirt cheap that smart sec forces should have for normal firefights anyway and reduce his pool. The problem you seem to be having is that the player built a straight up true blue combat mage. What you don't realize is that you would have a very similar problem if someone built a throw adept that could chunk 4 grenades an IP with 9-14 dice per throw. Someone who can reliably deal a massive amount of AOE damage rapidly finishes off a fight. So, visual modifiers to reduce his pool a bit, and some decent counterspelling or warding and you should be much closer to set.

Chris

[Ddays]

3 to 4 dice is well trained to me, and my small group of 4 is actually pretty good about spreading out their skills to 3/4 in a lot of things. But even so, there can only be so much cross training before skills get too much BP.

And to DTFarstar, my problem with that is that it takes the mage out of combat entirely. I don't want the mage to be gimped in combat, just be more in line with what the rest of the team can do.

[Kyoto Kid]

[Siege]

[Glayvin34]

[Glayvin34]

And GTMF is a very valid and necessary tactic. What sec team wouldn't start blasting on the mage and/or dude with the grenades, rockets or missles?

[Ddays]

Well obviously it's necessary since mages have so much raw power at their disposal. I'm actually frightened for when my mage finally gets improved masking and slips under the radar in combat.

[Apathy]

I always envisioned that standard security were just there as 'canaries in the coal mine' when one (or more) drops, that's when everybody else gets alerted and starts to act.

[ Spoiler ]

Every sec guard, guard dog, etc has a doc wagon bracelet/collar. The second somebody flatlines or passes out,

• every deadbolt in the building slides shut,
• shutters close over the windows,
• lights vacilate between total darkness and flash-bang bright.
• Noise generators go off.
• Particularly dangerous areas might get smoke and/or nausea gas pumped in.
• Floors might get sprayed with contact glue or frictionless coatings.
• Door handles may get electrified like stun batons.

None of this will actually stop the runners, but is intended to bump up target numbers and slow their escape.

When a real response team shows up, they'll have usable countermeasures against magic. Always using partial (-2DP) or full cover (-4DP) (behind portable sheilds if necessary). Judicious use of thermal smoke (-4), flash bangs (-1), etc all detract from dice pools and help even the score. Not to mention that many office buildings will have a mild background count (-1).

[ Spoiler ]

So, in the previous example, the runners fail their stealth roll and stunball a couple guards. With 1 Background Count (BC) he has an effective magic of 5 (assuming he spent the BP to max out magic). He casts at force 10, which is reduced in effect to force 9, but is still enough to take out the guard in one shot. The mage gets 2 or 3 boxes of physical from drain (-1DP).

When the response team gets there, they'll be in smoke (-2DP) and behind at least partial cover (-2DP), and may have either mage or spirit backup for spell defense or magical guard. Assuming they fail their tactics roll and you're able to see them all at once in the same spell radius, a second cast in adverse conditions will leave you throwing fewer dice than they do. And it's even worse if they have a few drones (which they would if they had any common sense.) You'd be better off having the sammy fire off some good air-timed grenades.

[Ddays]

Thanks apathy, you gave me some great ideas for a run.

[Fortune]

[Whipstitch]

Geek the mage is fine, but too many GMs are quick to metagame with it. If the Mage happens to be an ork in an armored jacket sustaining a few spells and is just sitting behind cover firing off potshots with his predator like the rest of the group, "Geek the mage!" shouldn't really come into it because unless there's a Sec Mage there to spot him, how in the hell do they know he's the mage to begin with?

[augurer]

Unless the mage has some odd Centering or Geas requirement, or a Shamanic mask, I don't see how you're going to know who the mage is short of assensing the entire team, anyway. And lets face it, if the opposing sec Mage is going to spend his first combat round Astrally Perceiving and Assensing, he's not likely to survive to the second.

[Fortune]

Actually, going by the rules, it isn't all that difficult to spot spellcasting, even for a mundane, despite what the fluff implies.

[Glayvin34]

We're talking about a Mage blasting off Stunball on every pass, here, which is supposedly fairly obvious because people are going down without bulletholes and the Mage isn't shooting but is doing something.

Even so, a properly prepared team might be able to hide their Stunball-blasting Mage, and then you might just have to accept that the team has prepared too well for the run you've prepared.

[Siege]

The rule is something to the effect of "+2 to spot a spell caster casting a spell" versus the roleplaying aspects.

-Siege

[Cthulhudreams]

I've always thought of it as a game about breaking LOS, it highly rewards indirect fire weapons, stealth and cover - maybe your security guards need to go for CS grenades and thermal smoke before the pistols - CS is an opaque gas and will probably also disrupt los giving negative casting modifiers.

[Fortune]

[Ddays]

I've always been afraid of super heavy resistance regarding surprise attacks.

The one time I optimize a sniper to be a big baddie, he nearly wipes the entire team before they can find his position. (Before anybody asks, the team knew something was up at the meet and had drones surveying the area as well as a spirit searching, just plain bad rolls on their part)

[Mercer]

Mages roll right over mundies; thats a hard thing to avoid. Its pretty much how the system was designed, if a site doesn't have a sec mage on duty its pretty much ice cream for (awakened) freaks. Your basic security guard isn't going to fare well against any runner, but its probably most noticeable against mages (and trolls with Panther Cannons).

So, the logical conclusion is sites that need to be defended will have magical security. If they can't afford it (because magic is rare, expensive and sometimes just plain hard to come by), then they'll adopt tactics that minimize their magical vulnerability. If a bunch of schmoes attempt to swarm the pc's, whether its a Stunball or grenades or full-auto bursts, things are not going to go well for them.

Given that magic, cyberware, and ten foot tall trolls are possibilities in SR, I would think that your average, everyday security guard is going to take that as his cue not to think he's Rambo. Schmoe-level security isn't there to take pc's on in head to head fights, they're there to rattle doorknobs, spot intruders, sound the alarm and then delay and inconvenience the runners until the High Threat Response Teams (whether they be from the parent corp or Lone Star) show up to deal with them. Lock it down, get the non-combatants to safety, and make sure the high karma backup is on the way. Schmoes should be taking full-cover and holding their actions to unload a tsunami of gunfire on the first pc that comes their way, not aggressively rooting out the intruders.

[hyzmarca]

[DTFarstar]

What I was trying to say and failed earlier is that mages are above everything else - VERSATILE so if this Magic 6 guy built his character right he has 11 other spells he can cast. If you let him wail and destroy some security then have the others use intelligent mage tactics and kill his Stunball dice pool he should have the ability to do other things, if he just continually tries to stunball and fail... don't feel bad. Suggest other alternatives, use enemy mages to SHOW him other alternatives. There are alot of spells out there and if all he has is self boost and combat spells... well 5 karma and a little time will remedy that.

Above any other skill that could potentially be useful to a shadowrunner innovation is the most important. The ability to flow with pressure and come up with new tactics instead of just blowing through all the opposition is what Shadowrun is all about because you know who has more guns, mages, and badass tech than you? Every corp and government in the damn game.

Chris

[Ddays]

Well, my main problem is that anything that foils specifically high force stunball foils almost everything else he can do short of calling up a spirit in reserve.

Either that or they run away and it's back to the one thing at a time gaming which is rather boring unless you introduce some weird contrived situation.

THE GUY'S A LIVING MANA WARD, SO YOU BETTER USE IMPROVED INVISIBILITY TO GET THE TEAM AWAY. OH HEY SAMMIES, TRY TO TAKE HIM OUT WHILE I FORCE THE MAGE TO PLAY SUPPORT.