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 Is it just me, or is stunball off the charts? |
 Dec 19 2007, 05:51 AM
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#51
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421  |
What spells does he have and what is his tradition? I might be able to give him and you some ideas about how this could go. The problem I'm seeing now is that you don't want to force him to do anything he doesn't want to do and it sounds like the ONLY thing he wants to do is annihilate people with magic in the most badass way possible. Which bothers you.... but you don't want to force him to change... hell I dunno, if you could copy us his sheet it would help alot too. But it is obvious- to me anyway and nothing says I'm not wrong- that his is more than just stunball being a really efficient spell.
Chris |
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Dec 19 2007, 06:00 AM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 2-July 07 Member No.: 12,127 |
Everybody on the team fulfils a valid role. The mage is perfectly willing to play ball, I'm just kind of annoyed that the game isn't exactly balanced in terms of what combat contribution each character can bring forth at what effort. When a mage can kick as much ass and have three times the utility of a cyber sammie, I would like to fix it without being forced to come up with a situation that specifically smacks down the mage's effectiveness.
It's ok if I occasionally smack down a character to make sure they don't get too cocky, but that's not a long term solution to the problem. And the general vibe I'm getting here is that the only fix is a encounter design one rather than a straight up mechanical change. Sigh, I guess nobody said being a GM was easy. |
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Dec 19 2007, 06:38 AM
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#53
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
You can do a mechanical change, but it's likely to be tough to get the balance you want without tweaking.
A few ideas: Increase the drain on combat spells. Remove the divide by by two for drain. So a force 13 stunball is 14 dice of drain. Or alternately, make area effect spells have double the drain of single target spells, so the force 13 stunbolt is 5 dice and the stunball is 10 dice. Reduce the damage. For example, damage is just double net hits, with a cap of total hits of force but no base damage. I haven't tried these, so I have no idea how ugly they they will or won't be. |
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Dec 19 2007, 07:12 AM
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#54
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Yep, true enough, but by the time that time the mage has already smacked you with the stunball. All I'm saying is geek the mage isn't that terribly useful because you can't really use it as a preemptive measure if the mage in question knows what they're doing. Oddly enough, if you really want to make mages sweat, you really ought to make life harder for the hacker and riggers. Object resistance will catch up to a mage sooner or later, and drones backed up with counterspelling or minor background count can make things real hairy, plus they're essentially immune to stun to begin with. I damn near smeared my group the first time I GMed 4th by having the top security guy at the facility statted out as a Mystic Adept with just enough magical ability to take Improved Ability for technical skills as well as counterspelling and a rifle he used to back up own his personal drone army. Pretty nasty when you consider that he ran them on a second commlink which wasn't connected to the main facility's PAN; if a Steel Lynx were even remotely capable of being stealthy, it could have been very messy. |
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Dec 19 2007, 09:58 AM
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#55
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
That assumes there is only one person (or small group) in opposition to the mage. Other bystanders or non-targeted opponents can also make use of Perception. |
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Dec 19 2007, 10:15 AM
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#56
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
Sammie's real strength is in the ability for a well equipped sammie to walk straight through a security checkpoint without anything less than blood testing demonstrating that the sammie is in any way a threat. |
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Dec 19 2007, 10:18 AM
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#57
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
That isn't exactly true - when a person is packing so much 'ware they stop having a thermal signature and qualify for a vehicle signature, they're gonna raise some eyebrows.
I love my samurai, but to be fair - they usually make the average cyberware detector roll over and die. :grinbig: :cyber: -Siege |
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Dec 19 2007, 10:32 AM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 2-July 07 Member No.: 12,127 |
That has actually happened to one of players, passing through a security checkpoint, the hacker heard this being broadcast across the coms:
"Be advised, on approach we have 3 geeks and a GM truck" "You sure, tower, visual shows 4 of them on foot" "Cyber sensors clearly show a vehicle there, captain" "Oh." The fourth member being the the casually strutting troll sammie of course. |
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Dec 19 2007, 11:12 AM
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#59
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
The main problem here is overcasting as rule rather than exception. The magic 6 caster should well be able to toast gangers, but not as fast as manaball allows for.
The option of increased drain is valid. If you suffer the same drain from fireball as from stunball, you decide what kind of resistance roll on behalf of the target you can beat easier. I would advise to lower drain by one Another option would be to limit damage from stunball etc to net hits. That would result in marginal damage in presence of counterspelling and encourage the use of foci to increase DP size. I think one aspect that is often ignored here is the control of mage power vs. mundane power in character design (read "GM approval"). Magic 5 or even 6 seems to be the norm for most mages that where submitted to me. As are high drain stats.Casters with magic 6, spellcasting 5(combat spells), stunball, fireball and increase reflexes clear house. More so with a few cheap initiations. On the other hand, mages can do with magic 4 or even 3, and can well spend their karma in other places. If you want to leave combat to the mundanes, tell the player to make do with magic 4 and promise to stay light on magical security. More BP to spend on non-magical things, too. |
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Dec 19 2007, 11:31 AM
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#60
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
If you're sammie is hardware toting to the max with BIG GUNS the problem is a rigger rolls lots more dice because drones are cheap and he can seriously have like 5 LMGs, and so is speccing out to do jumping in to the max, and can do all sorts of other cool stuff (thanks to the drones he's a great spy, excellent transport/get away driver and can usually hack a bit) and is just as legal (ie not very).
Competing against a rigger, while flavourful, isn't exactly where the 'strength' of the sammie is. I'm more thinking biosammie as an illustrative option of the strengths of a sammie. |
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Dec 19 2007, 01:32 PM
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#61
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
One bane of mages is speed. Samurai have it; they don't, usually. And with speed comes success in surprise tests.
Let us create a hypothetical character called Reasonably Fast Guy Reasonably Fast Guy has a reaction of 4(8) and and Intuition of 5, 3 IPs, and a MGL-6. Reasonably fast guy runs into the party in a hallway by accident, both sides make surprise tests. The mage is surprised. Now, being surprised, the mage cannot Stunball Reasonably Fast Guy, or take any action against him whatsoever. Reasonably Fast Guy can, however, fire 6 airburst grenades at the mage. The only hope is that the party has in this case is a speedster faster than Reasonably Fast Guy, who might have the drop on him or who, at least, will be going first. |
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Dec 19 2007, 02:54 PM
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#62
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Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 14-August 06 Member No.: 9,107 |
It's a role playing game. Strictly speaking it doesn't have to be balanced as you're not playing it in a competitive environment. If the mage is dominating combats talk to the player and point this out and ask him to tone it down so others can be involved. In our game I have a magic 6 grade 5 mage who has a spellcasting dice pool of 22-23 dice (I forget the exact number) for combat spells and 18 dice to resist drain. And has 1 point of cyber which includes ears and eyes; I *could* split my dice pool and cast 3 stunballs / round or cast F12 stunballs with impunity but I don't. My character ends up being the 2nd most powerful character in combat (our party only has one character designed for combat) because I throttle him back and play him appropriately stupid. (Our GM is also reasonable in that he doesn't have every mook immediately drop what they are doing in an attempt to vaporize the mage, so I can be appropriately stupid). As a result combats are entertaining for even the non-combat types. If it bothers you that much that a mage could in theory break things, then disallow casting multiple spells per combat turn and double the drain for overcasting, but honestly I don't think it matters if nobody does it. If the player won't be reasonable (but from what you've said it sounds like he will be) then give the team a run for something important and have the something important guarded by a grade 4-5 initiate with absorbtion and 6 dice in counterspelling. (At the risk of digression if you think magic is broken it's nothing compared to how broken shielding and absorbtion are; high grade initiates and their best friends are basically immune to magic.) That will give the baddies 10-11 dice in shielding and I don't think the team will be very fond of the F12 spellls that come back at them. |
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Dec 19 2007, 03:32 PM
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#63
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
Yeah, magic is overpowered in basically every RPG. It just happens by it's fundamental nature. The thing is, the mage should be bringing something to the table just like all the other characters. If the mage is bringing combat doom, then what is the sammie bringing? Support? If the sam has combat covered, encourage the mage to find his own niche. Again, apply visibility modifiers halfway intelligent sec forces should use cover, smoke etc. just for the firefight anyway, don't let the mage ignore it. Keep in mind you can't stunball/manaball/powerball what you cannot see. Cover! Cover! Cover!
If the enemies use poor tactics, and like I said in another thread, seriously magic has been around for how long now? 60 years? You can't tell me that there isn't at least a class or two in sec guard school about breaking LOS, throwing up smoke and flash packs, retreating to a warded area, and hitting the big red "Oh shits we are being attacked by a mage!" Button that summons the astral sec mage and his elemental friends. Or even nastier guardian/plant spirit friends to manifest. These are not smacking down on the mage! They are reasonable security precautions on the companies part against a threat that has been known for 60 years! Chris |
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Dec 19 2007, 03:35 PM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 06 From: San Francisco Member No.: 8,275 |
Excellent point. It could be the player, not the character. We used to have a player that would always overcast and always send force 6 spirits after every enemy. He was a very competitive person, and was dominating combat as a result and we thought it was because of how powerful Mages are. Once he left, Mages didn't dominate combat so completely because the Mages in the game weren't played by players that weren't competitive and therefore less ruthless and single-minded during combat. |
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Dec 19 2007, 03:54 PM
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#65
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...yeah I had that experience myself as a GM. Don't get me wrong, Mages are still tough if done well. However, now I have a team that plays in a much more balanced manner so that everyone is a part of the action instead of one person hogging it all.
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Dec 19 2007, 04:03 PM
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#66
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Target Group: Members Posts: 2 Joined: 14-November 07 Member No.: 14,204 |
Stunball is an area effect spell. So if you want to cut its utility a bit, have some of the guards move in for melee combat. Maybe a few of them rush in with stunbatons. Clearly, they won't run across a hundred meter long open courtyard to do this, but with the blind turns common in a lot of building, if the NPCs have access to the buildings security cameras or something, they can plan ambushes where stun-batoning a couple surprised PCs is an effective strategy.
If just a few guys are in melee range, or have taken cover within a few meters, the mage's ability to stunball the whole world into submission is greatly reduced. If the opposing security team is within 12 meters of the PCs, then the mage has to make some tough decisions about withholding spell-casting dice. |
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Dec 19 2007, 05:41 PM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 105 Joined: 28-August 05 Member No.: 7,637 |
this seems like a GM problem to me.
If you are fighting in a building, how is your own team not hit by a 12 meter radius spell? That would cover several rooms. Why are your bad guys just sitting out in the open, and not behind cover, as they are involved in a fight. Why does your mage keep going so soon in the combat round? Even with a 6 intuition, 6 reaction, improved reaction spell, improved intuition spell, have them all active, and got maxed out rolls, they have an initiative of 18 reaction max. If the combat mage has those two spells up, maxed reaction, maxed intuition, fighting idiots in a wide open space, no cover, 3 will power ratings, while none of your team just happens to be in a space about as wide as half a football field, then more power to the mage. A little smarter tactics, a street same who is worth being a street sam, and a GM with the testicles to strong arm a player who is strong arming your game, and mages go away. I have never, and I mean never, ever had a problem with a mage. One player even work armur, and sustained an over casted armour spell, he walked around with 32 points of armour. I mind controlled him, had him blind fold himself, hit him with decrease charisma, which is always fun, and packed hand grenades around him while he was standing in a mindless stupor, and exploded him. this was after 3 or 4 sessions of him just trying to find ways to over power everyone and everything. Several warning where given. Finally, that was enough. Also, I like to hit players with force 12 or 16 spells after they abuse them. Force 16 decrease charisma is a dirty trick, but once mage players get on your nerves, you need to apply the rules they like to use against thier group, the problem goes away. |
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Dec 19 2007, 05:42 PM
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#68
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Going first is as easy as spending a point of Edge. As a general rule smart mages keep Edge for Initiative and Binding tests that look like they're going sour. Also, an Intuition tradition combat mage with Reaction Enhancers and Improved reflexes running through a sustaining focus is faster than hell and a lot less expensive than what you're suggesting.
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Dec 19 2007, 07:01 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 715 Joined: 4-September 05 From: Metaplane GEPLK136 (The one with the lizards. You remember the lizards, don't you?) Member No.: 7,684 |
The first time one of those low-ranking mooks happens to be an initiate mage supervisor with improved masking, spell reflect, and a counterspelling focus -- well, it might not be the last time the mage tosses a force 12 stunball, but it will be the last time he does so with impunity. A rare event, to be sure -- but a memorable one.
Force 12 spells hang around on the astral for half a day. That's a long time for a forensic mage to analyze it. After a few runs, the mage will have quite the security profile, and likely have left some physical samples around. That gives the higher-up corp mages incentive to send out some high force spirits -- spirits that track the character when he's trying to rest off that high spell drain. Or worse, when he's meeting with Johnson to exchange the goods for some pay. The paranoid Johnson -- the one with snipers on the stuffer shack down the road in case the team tries to double cross him. Of course, in my opinion, if the mage is leaving around extremely high force spell signatures regularly, he's lucky if only security guards notice it. Do you have any idea what a great find he'd be to an insect spirit hive? If he can toss around spells like that, they'll reason he's a perfect target to make a flesh-form. Maybe even a queen! There have always been magically resistant beasties in Shadowrun lore, have some of them show up with some security guards guiding them. Then there's something for both the Sam and the Mage to do. Add in a few drones, and everyone's buys at once! Remember mooks have edge too -- and can spend it to go first. They can take actions like tossing a grenade while running for cover. If they're caught by surprise? Well, taking out a pile of hapless and unwitting goons quietly is great work for a mage. And the street sam will have plenty to do when a dozen biomonitors go off in the security office simultaneously... Tactics, tactics, tactics. Security goons don't want to be geeked by the mage. They're no doubt trained to avoid them (avoiding LOS, vision modifiers, spending edge to get to a safe spot first.) Security drones, on the other hand, are cheap -- far cheaper than security guard death benefits or hospital bills. Security goons are just there for the "human" element, and to make judgment calls -- calls like "now is a good time to turn the drones / hellhounds loose." As others have said, "canary in a coal mine" is another job to fill. This comic sums it up well: Order of the Stick |
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Dec 19 2007, 08:14 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 105 Joined: 28-August 05 Member No.: 7,637 |
Really? all that cyber? Then how does he toss force 12 spells? If he does it with magic, it still costs..... The power focus costs a lot of money, the high attributes cost a lot of build points. A lot of edge cost a lot of build points. A high spellcasting skill costs a lot of build points. How are all these theory mages just hanging around? Lets see, he is human, so he gets 2 edge, thats free, so unless he spends build points, how does he just conviently go first? Why can't an NPC also spend an edge to go first to counter it? Reaction enhancers? The spell? Thats 3 build points to buy that spell, and plus the foci. +3 reaction to max out your human reaction, requires a rating 3 sustaining spell foci, thats 30 grand, and its 12 availibility. 30K is 6 build points, plus the 3 to buy the spell, thats nearly 10 build points. 10 more, to do the same for the improved reflexes. How much edge does he buy? Where are the characters getting all these build points from? How pitiful are their other attributes? If he has a 1 strength, he is getting his strength drained, and rendered unconscious or paralyzed. How many times can he buy a first action before he runs out of edge to go first? As a GM, each one of his NPC's can do the same, except they don't have to worry about needed edge for the next encounter. I don't know, force 12 stun blasts are never abused in my games, as they are so easy to counter, just like any mage is, hell, you can counter a stun blast buy buying an NPC magic resistance, as in the edge, and bio/cyber that ignores stun. Hell, a damage compensator will push one box to physical and help more. The whole mage being over powered crap is nothing more than weak GM's who don't want to go the extra 2 inches to use what is available to him to keep them in check. |
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Dec 19 2007, 08:26 PM
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#71
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
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Dec 19 2007, 10:04 PM
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#72
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Look, I know you don't know me or my playstyle, but I don't talk "theory" about Awakened characters, I play them; almost exclusively, in fact. Second, you're being an ass when you call the people on this thread asking about how to keep -combat- spells from wrecking their games weak GMs. Personally, I don't even think Mages are particularly overpowered, but my opinion doesn't do much good for those people whose combats are being steamrolled by force 8+ combat spells, but telling them that Initiative is only a small part of the equation that needs to include other considerations is a step in the right direction. Here's a Mystic Adept Combat Mage sheet I have laying around. I've never really played it because Combat Mages aren't my style; I leave indiscriminate killing to the Samurai because they don't have to worry about dragging foci through wards and leaving astral signatures all over the place, plus there's a lot more useful things a -real- mage could be doing other than subbing in for a sammy. I'm afraid he only casts Force 8 Stunballs rather than 12, but at least he has 17 dice for combat tests. Sorry if that disappoints. :P Now that I think about it, I should probably tweak this sheet and see if it'd make a passable Combat Mage for the Sample thread. Probably wouldn't work though; it rather sucks at close range comat... [ Spoiler ]
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Dec 19 2007, 10:23 PM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 2-July 07 Member No.: 12,127 |
A lot of people are saying its a GMing problem, but seriously, I have infinite resources. If I want to make the game unfavorable to mages, I can do it easily. Very easily.
On why the mage has the space: This is mostly a tactics thing, the team is pretty good with spacing and scouting using various means. Sure, it's gone bad once or twice, but most of the time, they hit fast and they hit hard. And since stunballs can't hit people the mage can't see. The rest of the team gets behind cover. Sometimes the guards catch on, sometimes they don't. On why he wins initiative - 2 words, surprise round The team as a whole makes it a point to keep their backs covered at all times, so I generally try to make sure ambushes only occur when they chill at a bar or relax. A bunch of bar regulars walked up and bought them drinks, then started shock glove pimp slamps all around. The mage and the hacker went down quick, but the troll was able to handle all the gangers by himself. So yeah, I can make combats where the mage doesn't instantly win, no problem. And I don't have a problem with the mage, I really don't. And I never said the mage was a problem character, he isn't. The real problem is that the mage and the rest of the team has gotten comfortable with a style of combat that works for them, but which spreads out the rolling in phases which makes the session a bit dry for the story I want to tell, so I'm looking for ways to switch it up a little. I just want a way to make him mix up his spell casting a little before it gets too dry for everybody. The first couple times a combat ended with the force 12 stunball everybody was happy about it. Now I just wish there was a way to recreate fights like the corridor fight from Matrix 1 reliably. And no, retirement isn't an option, yet. (I want to finish my story arc, they already have the next batch of characters ready) And thanks again Apathy, your ideas for combat are always interesting. And for guys who want his stats, they aren't really broken or min/maxed, he has a bunch of weaknesses for me to exploit and I'm not sure if he bought absolutely everything he needed, but here's the most convenient stat sheet I have, when he submitted the character: [ Spoiler ] I think the build has a few emergency points left over so that I had some twiddle room to give him whatever he was missing. I don't have the one with karma gains on hand because that's the physical paper one and I let them keep those. |
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Dec 19 2007, 10:29 PM
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#74
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Damage Compensators do not work the way you seem to think they work. :eek: |
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Dec 19 2007, 10:36 PM
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#75
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Well, if the only problem is stunball spamming then why not just start giving out Pain Editors, the bioware where allows you to ignore all stun damage? Or bring back old style stim patches and put them in auto-injectors.
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