News: And it came to pass... Options

[Caine Hazen]

Looks like the Indian uprising has begun. Our prophets were almost exactly correct on the timing too.

[Redjack]

I added this to the Dumpshock frontpage as well.

[Kyoto Kid]

"...and so it came to pass..." :grinbig:

[Zak]

This will be interesting. time for some state sponsored shadowruns, i'd say ;)

[Rajaat99]

That's cool, I'm all for it. It is perfectly legal to succeed.
I don't want my tax dollars going to help them though.

[CircuitBoyBlue]

And if the USSR falls apart in about 20 years, I'll be REALLY freaked out!

[Moon-Hawk]

[mfb]

i believe they're claiming their reservation as a sovereign nation. man, setting up reservations was really one of the dumbest things the US ever did. if you're going to win, win. don't leave relics around so that your great-grandkids can cry and moan and feel guilty about the fact that you won.

[kzt]

Cool idea. Was pretty clearly settled in 1865 that it's not allowed.

[Kyoto Kid]

[Dashifen]

[CircuitBoyBlue]

The only actual "legal precedent" set by the Civil War was that you can apparently lead a military force in an armed attempt to destroy the United States, and not get tried for treason or anything else. The only ramifications were the war itself, and the fact that the people who actually fought it got screwed in a lot of cases (ie, killed).

And this isn't the first time native peoples have taken action. In the 70s, they took advantage of a treaty they'd signed with the US that gave them claim to any unused public lands that the government had abandoned, and occupied Alcatraz. Of course, we're not quite done screwing them over, and we put an end to it pretty quickly. And Indians are still pretty much the only people whose property is allowed to be sold by someone else. There's a lot of cases where Indians refused to sell their land, so the US just went to a different Indian, from somewhere else entirely, who was maybe a white guy with a drop of Indian blood, and got him to sell it, and that sort of thing STILL holds up in court. It's like if I were to sell the Brooklyn Bridge to one of you, and when the people of New York complained about you demolishing it, or whatever you wanted to do, some punk judge said "No, he had a right to--he paid for it fair and square," even though the money was paid to me, who's never even been to the Brookly Bridge.

I guess my point is, the US has a way of just making this sort of thing all irrelevant. It's easy to ignore when as a country, you don't care about things like human rights or dignity. Other native nations have their elected leaders and governmental structures, and the US for the most part doesn't care. The official attitude is just sort of "Oh look, how quaint! They've elected a chief named 'Wilma Mankiller...' They think they're a real government, and it's adorable!"


Actually, I'm editing this because I'm not sure about the details of reconstruction. I was just talking about the legal consequences for the individuals involved in the confederate leadership, who didn't face charges because Congress at least nominally wanted to "reconcile" with the south. I'm sure reconstruction forced some pretty crappy stuff down the throats of the south, but I wouldn't call it a legal precedent, especially considering the Texas constitution still specifically grants it the right to secede if it wants.

This post has been edited by CircuitBoyBlue: Dec 20 2007, 06:52 PM

[Eryk the Red]

I'm not sure of the details of the treaties, but I was under the impression that breaking away in this way is in accordance with the treaty. I could be wrong. And it doesn't matter, honestly. We as a nation DO NOT keep our side of our treaties with Native Americans. Why would we start now?

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

4 guys with a website is hardly an uprising.

[Konsaki]

Do they have a military to defend their new nation? If not, I say we walk over to it with a couple of sidearms and decare the new nation as taken over...

[Signal]

[CircuitBoyBlue]

[Konsaki]

[klinktastic]

Probably because it would be funny, more so than anything.

[MYST1C]

I bet those guys are closely watching how the world, and especially the US, handles the Kosovo Independence issue...

[Adarael]

There is nothing funny about Nebraska, or the Dakotas.

[Eryk the Red]

I actually support Native American independence. America has treated its natives appallingly, and if they want out, I say "Why not?" What harm is there in that for America, really? And I know that the abuse of natives is not unique to this country, but that doesn't excuse it. It doesn't make it any less messed up.

[Adarael]

Here's the rub. America hasn't treated any natives appallingly for decades. The US government, however, may be guilty of being a bit of a bastard to them. But the government isn't the people, and certainly isn't the nation. If the House of Lords acts like a pack of assholes, I don't blame my friends in London, and I don't blame the whole of the UK's population.

I see their point, I really do. But this is what you'd have to tell people: "Hey, because of some stuff people did in the 1800s - possibly before your family was ever on this continent - you have to lose your job, lose your house, move out of your home turf, and basically find a whole new life. Sorry, but our great-great grandparents were fuckers to these guys' great great grandparents, and now we feel bad."

Seriously, this shit all happened before ANY members of my family had gone further west than Galway. They weren't even on this continent, then. And me? I was born here, and I tend to think that gives me as much right to live here as people whose ancestors got screwed. It sucks, but 'giving land back at the expense of somebody who lives there' isn't the right way to make amends.

[mfb]

in the scheme of things, the US hasn't treated native americans that bad at all. we rode in, killed lots of them, and took their land. that's pretty standard winner-loser stuff. the unusual part is what came next: the US made treaties with the natives and left them to fend for themselves. the treaties were crap, of course, and were reneged on the moment it was convenient. but it's not often that the winners of a land grab say to the losers, "here's some of that land we just grabbed from you, you can mostly govern yourselves on it and we'll mostly leave you alone."

[Eryk the Red]