IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> The Power of the I.P.'s, Are Improved Reflexes too powerful
The Red Menace
post Dec 23 2007, 05:04 PM
Post #1


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 32
Joined: 13-November 07
Member No.: 14,168



I've been running a SR4 game since it was released and have run into a bit of a problem. All of my Shadowrunners have either magically altered reflexes or cybernetic augmentations that give them 4 I.P.'s.

With the exception of a few elites, most of the NPC templates in the game have only 1 I.P. Now I'm all for pro-player and have recognized the fact that the players are suppose to be tougher then most, but I've noticed that this has made the group a bit over powered. Even when you put big nasty trolls with Armor soak ratings in the 20's, the team still takes advantage of them pretty easily.

I'm wondering if there are any house rules, suggestions or creative ideas that could help even the power a bit while avoiding every combat being against overpowered encounters (Troll Mage in full armor with laser cannons coming out of his crotch) or jipping the PC's.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ddays
post Dec 23 2007, 05:12 PM
Post #2


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 114
Joined: 2-July 07
Member No.: 12,127



Improved IPs are really really expensive though, and given the nature of SR combat (over the first round someone makes eye contact), I'm also hardpressed to see how 4 IP is that much better than 3 or even 2.

If you have a melee level brawl, then 4 IP could be overpowering, but at range, when the order of the day are grenades and spells, getting the first hit is what usually determines combat for me.

Wired Reflexes Rating 3/Synaptic Booster Rating 3 aren't even avaliable at chargen and for their cost your Runners could just retire permanently. Wired Reflexes 3 also takes a huge chunk of essense, I forget how much exactly, but I thought it was around 5, which is basically your entire essence pool.

An adept who gets improved reflexes 3 is losing a lot of versatility for the same reason, since that's 3 magic points he could've spent on other things.

The only way to routinely get 4 IPs is the spell, and even so, the sustaining mage loses 2 dice to all checks or has to buy an extremely high power health sustaining focus. And you have to remember, it might get dispelled at any time or get detected by an enemy mage who then blasts them with lightning and put them all at -4 at combat.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ddays
post Dec 23 2007, 05:14 PM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 114
Joined: 2-July 07
Member No.: 12,127



Oh, and if you want your regular mooks to present some problems, just get them some combat drugs. The temporarily boost in IP is cheap and cost effective, and the fluff suggests that Lone Star and other security firms have no qualms about buying them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rotbart van Dain...
post Dec 23 2007, 05:17 PM
Post #4


Hoppelhäschen 5000
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,807
Joined: 3-January 04
Member No.: 5,951



QUOTE (The Red Menace)
All of my Shadowrunners have either magically altered reflexes or cybernetic augmentations that give them 4 I.P.'s.

Well, that just means that they sacrificed overall performance for direct combat performance.
Obviously, as a GM, you gave the the need/incentive to do so.

Reduce the amount of conflicts solvable by speed & guns alone.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jack Kain
post Dec 23 2007, 05:41 PM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 906
Joined: 16-October 06
Member No.: 9,630



Throw in enemies using full auto weapons with no quams about ammo usage which may encourage them to spend their first IP to go full defense.
Steal Lynxs with Ingrim White Knights an do the job quite well as drones always have multiple IP's.

When going full auto its often best to go wide burst when facing PC's as their ability to dodge will drop to nothing or near nothing and all the added hits. A drone could fire a single full auto from an Ingrim White Knight each IP at no penalty.

Or worse have two Steal Lynxs one lays down surpressing fire while the other makes narrow bursts at any individual targets who poke their head out.

For a real nasty bit of security the mage instead of making himself invisible makes the combat drones.

But in the end ambush is the real way to nab PC's.




Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Clyde
post Dec 23 2007, 05:56 PM
Post #6


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 458
Joined: 12-April 04
From: Lacey, Washington
Member No.: 6,237



I'm assuming that your PCs have a lot of karma, money and successful runs behind them. So they're good at their main jobs as well as being uber fast. If they're rookies who just maxed out initiative all together then this advice may not apply to you :grinbig:

-The NPC templates can be upgraded if your players all have 4 IPs. Throw them up against Navy SEALs, Tir Ghosts, Red Samurai, Ares Firewatch teams, etc. At this level of power it's appropriate. It's not that hard for a corp to afford Wired 1 or even Wired 2.

Now not every site can be defended by such elites. But the ones your players are going to should be worth it. At this point there's no reason not to pay them however much they think such a run is worth. They won't be buying Delta Move by Wire 3 because they already have it.

-Note than even goons with Wired 1 who take Kamikaze become equivalent to much tougher goons.

-Drones (whether in dog mode or controlled by jumped in riggers) typically get 3 IPs. They're also immune to stunball and tend to have high armor ratings. Try to convert some nasties from previous editions if you feel the stuff in the BBB isn't good enough. There was an Ares branded vectored thrust drone that had a ton of armor and could fly indoors IIRC.

-Spirits. Only 2 IPs but at high force levels they are close to bullet proof.
They are also hellaciously fast. One of my players who runs a mage calls rolling spirit initiative "the best part of my day."

-Threats. A single NPC who's got a cranked up initiative score and lots of IPs can do a world of good.

-Edge. This is a big winner. Your Grunts and minor Threats only need it for the one encounter that they take part in, so they can spend pretty liberally to go first. Expect your PCs to get upgraded Edge stats as this maneuver continues. Try to combine this Edge use with stun grenades, big spells, heavy weapons fire, etc. By putting PCs on the defensive you can totally adjust their tactics. Edge can also buy extra initiative passes. In this, it's effect is nearly invisible. Recall that the average stat is 3, and for humans average edge should be more like 4.

-Ambush. This one is much harder to pull off, but characters lying in ambush get +6 on surprise tests. Stick it to your players once in a while. Again, feel free to use stun grenades.

There. That's 7 different ways to outdraw your PCs (Elite Grunts, Grunts on Drugs, Drones, Spirits, Threats, Edge and Ambush). With this many ways to keep things interesting you shouldn't even have to repeat yourself very often!

Don't forget to split up your team and give them something to keep one or two characters occupied while the others fight (protect the hacker, disarm the bomb, climb up the escape ladder, etc).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FrankTrollman
post Dec 23 2007, 06:37 PM
Post #7


Prime Runner
*******

Group: Banned
Posts: 3,732
Joined: 1-September 05
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Member No.: 7,665



Try putting four mooks on the table. One samurai with 4 IP can take 4 enemies with 1 IP each, but only because he can do amazing things with a full defense action. Even then, it's hardly automatic.

4 guys with assault rifles and agility 3, automatics 3, and smartlinks is going to chew through the vast majority of 4 IP characters unless that character starts edging or otherwise going into crazy town. Each one fires two short, wide bursts and it just really hurts.

-Frank
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Clyde
post Dec 23 2007, 07:53 PM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 458
Joined: 12-April 04
From: Lacey, Washington
Member No.: 6,237



Be sure to spread those 4 mooks out and put them in heavy enough armor to take the grenades. . . .
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Whipstitch
post Dec 23 2007, 08:03 PM
Post #9


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,883
Joined: 16-December 06
Member No.: 10,386



Spirits aren't fast enough to consistently go first against wired runners unless they're at least Force 5 though, and even then only if they're Air or Fire Spirits. They cleaned up the stupidly high initiative ages ago in the errata.


And yeah, the dangerous thing about high end initiative boosters isn't so much the amount of passes as it is simply the fact that they get to go first and can afford to charge a full defense action. Combat drugs, multiple mooks, the Home Ground quality and automatic weapons are really, really useful against such tactics and even the most low budget security force should be able to afford some Jazz, 400Â¥ AK-97s or 500Â¥ Uzi IVs (much better; they have a stock and laser sight) or shotguns w/ wide spread on hand for emergencies. With Home Ground, 3 agi, 3 longarms and some jazz, even a mook with an old shotgun and no smartlink tosses 8 dice to defend his turf and can give his opponent a -4 reaction penalty to defend. Of course, the real trick is surviving long enough to get their shot off to begin with... :please:
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jack Kain
post Dec 23 2007, 08:20 PM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 906
Joined: 16-October 06
Member No.: 9,630



trouble with shot guns its that boost to armor, especially counting the errata rules for flechette ammo
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Whipstitch
post Dec 23 2007, 08:22 PM
Post #11


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,883
Joined: 16-December 06
Member No.: 10,386



The idea is to start hitting at all, and by reducing the opponent's reaction you can make up for the armor penalty to an extent by making it easier to score more net hits and thus raising your DV back up. It's also only really necessary to give the first couple of mooks firing a chance at chipping in some damage; by the time it gets to the 3rd or 4th mook the runner is looking at a multiple dice penalty merely for prior defense checks whether or not they were ever actually hit. If they get chipped at enough by the first couple of mooks it's entirely possible that the 3rd or 4th guy can tighten up the choke or make a called shot to increase DV or whatever. When you're GMing a high powered group you do eventually hit the point where Joe Security dealing a couple of stun is a minor victory in the quest to softening the team up before the Red Samurai arrive. The death by a thousand cuts approach can work rather well, especially since squads can arrive mid-combat and force surprise checks while the pcs are distracted, wounded and low on ammo.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HappyDaze
post Dec 23 2007, 09:23 PM
Post #12


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,838
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,669



QUOTE
especially since squads can arrive mid-combat and force surprise checks while the pcs are distracted, wounded and low on ammo.

Typical combat last only 1-5 combat turns - that's 15 seconds on the high end. It's actually very rare for back-up to arrive in mid-combat with SR's blindingly fast combat pace.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mercer
post Dec 23 2007, 10:43 PM
Post #13


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,326
Joined: 15-April 02
Member No.: 2,600



I think that's why the low-level security is most useful for containment rather than confrontation. Instead of directly engaging intruders, they surround and dig in, using Cover and Held Actions to compensate for their lack of full defense actions and low Initiative. They aren't their to apprehend elite runner teams, only slow them down enough so that the elite response teams can get there. Typically, the only thing that's going to get there once it goes to Combat Turns is an astrally projecting mage, or a hacker who can jump into drones already on site.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fortune
post Dec 23 2007, 10:49 PM
Post #14


Immoral Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486



... Or a Spirit or three.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mercer
post Dec 23 2007, 11:05 PM
Post #15


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,326
Joined: 15-April 02
Member No.: 2,600



Another thing is that even though runners of an elite level of ability are very rare, the jobs they are hired to do will put them up against elite defenses. If something is valuable enough that someone is going to hire runners like that to steal it, those that own it are going to have it properly defended. I liken it to being a major league pitcher. Sure, the number of people that can throw a 100mph fastball is pretty small, but those that can are always trying to throw it past the very small number of people that are pretty good at hitting them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Karaden
post Dec 23 2007, 11:59 PM
Post #16


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 861
Joined: 27-November 07
Member No.: 14,397



I think your real problem is, as some have said, you have high end runners but you are treating them like they are fresh out of chargen.

I mean, if they have played long enough to get the 100k for the wired 3, they obviously are on the higher end side of things. If your just grabbing the pregened basic goons and hoping that they will do anything one on one you are way off.

You need to either send out a large number of guys with good equipment, or a small number of elite people. Also don't forget about things like the penelty for getting fired on multipul times.

Also keep in mind that Wired reflexes 3 takes up 5 of your 6 essence, which means they don't have much of anything else. And the bioware version costs an outstanding 240k, so either way your looking at a huge investment.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kyoto Kid
post Dec 24 2007, 01:54 AM
Post #17


Bushido Cowgirl
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,782
Joined: 8-July 05
From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats
Member No.: 7,490



...it used to be that the Synaptic Acceleration did not add to reaction, only initiative. It also only had two rating levels instead of three. In a way I think they made it a little too powerful even though it is more expensive. Also here mages have an edge as well. For 60,000 they can get a Force 4 sustaining focus 4 which will support enough hits on an Increase Reflexes spell to give them 4 IPs. For a Sammy to do that it is as mentioned 5 essence and 100,000 :nuyen: Yeah the Mage needs to bond the focus (8 Karma) but he saves both essence and :nuyen: over the Sammy.

Addressing the original question, yes I think that given the DP mechanics, IPs in 4th ed are more powerful. In previous editions it was almost a detriment sometimes to roll a high initiative as you had to apportion your combat pool over the entire combat turn. Mages had it doubly bad as they had to allocate their sorcery pools to both casting and drain for the same action. In 4th ed, you always get your full DP (minus negative modifiers).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post Dec 24 2007, 02:18 AM
Post #18


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



Wards and other magical barriers work fine at messing up people who want to run around with spells sustained. Particularly when catching them by surprise, like in a high speed elevator shaft... You can drop it to get get through (if you know the ward is there), but then you have to put it back up. And if you are sending spirits on remote service, telling them to kill anyone with an active spell on them is a pretty good way to target the mages.

It's pretty easy to blow down a 4 pt spell. And if you are feeling nasty you could use "Awakened sapient critters are capable of all magical tasks and follow the same rules for magic as normal characters" on p290 as a reason why spirits have countermagic. Or you could just add Magical Guard as a standard power. I'd also tend to think that people trying to dispel their enhanced reflexes is a pretty effective way to distract the mage.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kyoto Kid
post Dec 24 2007, 03:09 AM
Post #19


Bushido Cowgirl
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,782
Joined: 8-July 05
From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats
Member No.: 7,490



...but all the mage needs to do is recast the spell when he can get the chance. He's out no resources, no essence.

A Matrix Specialist or TM (especially with sprites) can frag with a Sammy's wires, weapons, and cyberlimbs as well. All of a sudden he's just standing there punching himself in the face or something.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Whipstitch
post Dec 24 2007, 04:06 AM
Post #20


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,883
Joined: 16-December 06
Member No.: 10,386



Not to be mean, but if a TM gets at your wired reflexes and cyberlimb, it usually means one of three things:
A: You were captured. At this point you're screwed regardless.
B: You're pants-on-head retarded and left the wireless to your very body turned on for some unfathomable reason. Leaving your wireless access to cyberware turned is a perfectly reasonable risk for most people to take. Shadowrunners, however, are NOT most people. Take precautions, at least while you're on an actual run, anyway.
C: Your GM isn't really playing by the RAW.

This post has been edited by Whipstitch: Dec 24 2007, 04:29 AM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Karaden
post Dec 24 2007, 04:09 AM
Post #21


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 861
Joined: 27-November 07
Member No.: 14,397



QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Dec 23 2007, 11:06 PM)
B: You're pants-on-head retarded and left the wireless to your very body turned on for some unfathomable reason.

Except that the BBB very spesificly says that you should usually keep it on or face the consiquences of a compleatly unspesified nature.

*edit* note the sarcasim.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ddays
post Dec 24 2007, 04:16 AM
Post #22


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 114
Joined: 2-July 07
Member No.: 12,127



Actually I think bioware that requires a trigger is subscribed to your PAN (IE wired reflexes) for you to use the trigger.

Cyberlimbs and the like have sensory inputs and the like which are also necessary for some functionabilities.

Then you have the stuff like musle-replacement and bone lacing which are just there and can't really be hacked. (Oh, we built in a break bones command in your bone lacing, real bright there)

If the technomancer gets past your firewall and into your PAN, he can then move on to hack your cyberarms and legs facing rolls of whatever device rating you gots. In my experience, most PCs have around 4 firewall, so unless they get their friendly neighborhood hacker to get their back, a hack on your comm-link and then your body parts may be perfectly likely. I mean, they put device ratings on cyberware for a reason.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Whipstitch
post Dec 24 2007, 04:19 AM
Post #23


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,883
Joined: 16-December 06
Member No.: 10,386



Cyberlimbs don't have to be on your PAN; their base functionality basically works via DNI and has predated 2070 wireless tech by a gigantic margin. Hell, this is part of the reason why it's a trivial matter to have say, a datajack built right into your cyberarm. They're essentially li'l closed networks to themselves, honestly. You always have access to your cyberlimb's basic functions, but that doesn't necessarily mean your PAN does.

And no, bioware doesn't work via technological interfaces. Just about all of them require either some sort of trained muscular response to be activated if they need to be activated at all (most bioware is passive), or else they react to changes in your physiology like the Adrenaline pump does. The fact that bioware doesn't really interface that well with tech is the big reasons that a whole bunch of the cyberware dedicated to rigging and matrix activities haven't been made in equivalent but more essence friendly bioware versions. Off the top of my head the only activated bioware I can think of that's easily turned off and on is the Pain Editor; no idea how that one works, in all honesty.

This post has been edited by Whipstitch: Dec 24 2007, 04:47 AM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Clyde
post Dec 24 2007, 04:58 AM
Post #24


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 458
Joined: 12-April 04
From: Lacey, Washington
Member No.: 6,237



Okay, so long story short: "IPs are awesome - get some."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
apollo124
post Dec 24 2007, 05:59 AM
Post #25


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 458
Joined: 28-March 05
From: NA/UCAS/IN/
Member No.: 7,246



QUOTE (Ddays)
An adept who gets improved reflexes 3 is losing a lot of versatility for the same reason, since that's 3 magic points he could've spent on other things.

Improved Reflexes 3 is 5 magic points, not 3.

Too rich for my blood, I've only ever had adepts with Reflexes 2 myself. That usually gives me enough room for Astral Perception, some enhanced senses, and maybe a little something extra to play with.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 4th October 2024 - 03:07 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.