 Spirits, General Questions |
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 Dec 26 2007, 05:29 PM
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,244 Joined: 2-August 07 Member No.: 12,442  |
I am going to be starting a new game, along with the one I play with Dashifen, and I will be playing a variant of the Radical Eco Shaman that Whipstitch whipped up. That character primarily relies on summoning, so I need some help with it.
Any help on the following questions would be appreciated. Assume the question is asked 3 times, starting with force 3, then force 6, then force 9 where it makes sense. What is the best combat spirit? What is the most versatile spirit? What is the most disguisable spirit (I'm sure fire spirits stand out)? Are task spirits good/useful? Feel free to post anything else of use for a newbie summoner. |
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Dec 26 2007, 05:44 PM
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#2
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
A lot of these answers really rely on your GM. But here's what I can offer:
Beast. Followed by Beast and then Beast. Then Fire, Water, and Guardian, not necessarily in that order. I think you have to give the Guardian spirit a weapon.
Man. Or Earth if you need physical labor.
None of the above. I don't remember the page references off-hand, but unless a spirit has Realistic Form, it's obviously a spirit.
Christ on a stick, yes.
Mind the drain, it can be capricious. You might also find this spirit reference sheet to be of some use. Summoning a spirit in combat takes for-frickin-ever, in that you have to spend a Complex Action summoning it, then a Simple Action (on your next pass) to send it into a fight, and then it has to spend a Complex Action to materialize before it can affect anything on the physical plane; better to summon it ahead of time and either keep it around or send it to the Astral Waiting Room. |
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Dec 26 2007, 06:20 PM
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#3
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Depends how imaginative you are. If you can think of a good use to setting fire to people's cover or using water to short out electrics, then the respective elemental spirits are going to be handy. On the other hand a beast spirit can have a natural weapon and venom if you want it. They're no good fro ranged attacks though. For that you want elemental spirits with the elemental attack power. Guardian spirits can be handy if you want to carry around weapons to hand out to them, though it's only for specific plans that require that, I'd say. Engulf is fantastic with higher Force spirits and with great form spirits, obtained through the Invoking metamagic, they can use it as an area of effect. That's scary.
Task spirits, probably, but Spirits of Man can become a backup spell caster of sorts (expensive use of services, though).
None. Unless it's an Insect Spirit fleshform, Shedim master, etc. then everyone can recognize a spirit. They just don't look metahuman. Only your ally spirit will ever normally get this power.
Yes. It's one of the reasons Voodoo is such a potent tradition.
Sort out the division of costs with your party from the beginning. If you're focused on conjuring rather than sorcery, you're going to rack up quite a few bills on summoning materials. Make sure that the rest of the team is willing to reimburse you for services expended on their behalf. They may not be, though. Your spending will be out of all proportion to the Samurai or a focused spell-slinger. When they're all hurting for money, they might not want to chip in leaving you in the awkward position of either have a more expensive to run character than the rest of them, or not playing your character to his maximum potential. |
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Dec 26 2007, 06:27 PM
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#4
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Ally, for all of the above. |
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Dec 26 2007, 06:32 PM
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#5
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Your mileage may vary, but more than a few people swear by Air Spirits. |
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Dec 26 2007, 06:54 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
Wait, so pretty much only Ally spirits can have the Realistic Form power? I was wondering about that, because I couldn't find any normal, summonable spirits that had it.
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Dec 26 2007, 07:19 PM
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#7
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I think it was mainly introduced to the game by necessity, otherwise infiltration attempts by Insect Spirits, Shedim, etc. would be over before they got started. But Ally spirits are the only spirits that a PC is likely to conjure that have this power. Even possessed individuals and items betray their spirit status. Now I would argue that Guidance spirits are the most potent spirit in combat. But only for the amusement value. ;) :P Making good use of Elemental Strike or Engulf? Elemental spirits, e.g. Fire. Tearing up opponents in close combat? Beast. Specific need for a type of weapon, e.g. someone to man the LMG on the stolen Citymaster? Guardian spirits (though they wont be that good unless really high force). But all spirits have their strengths, and note the powers that you can get with a great form spirit. The Storm power is great for wide-ranging destruction. |
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Dec 26 2007, 07:19 PM
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#8
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The Realistic Form power is available to one degree or another to every spirit which uses Inhabitation. So if you happen to be an Insect Magician, you can summon many spirits who have this power. If you aren't, then you'll only ever have the one spirit who can do this (the Ally). -Frank |
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Dec 27 2007, 12:43 PM
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#9
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
What is the best combat spirit?
Guardian +elemental attack/+heavy weapons /+Concealment (order varies). Beats beast by having counterspelling. Force 9 is serious evil. I like Air spirits, too. What is the most versatile spirit? Man. Everything except combat, unless you count Fear. What is the most disguisable spirit (I'm sure fire spirits stand out)? Anything with concealment. Hide in plain sight. Are task spirits good/useful? Yes. I do not like their ability to partially take away the role of technical archtypes, but it definitly makes them useful. Feel free to post anything else of use for a newbie summoner. - Bind force 4 or 5 spirits, they are worthy of the slot they take up and you get enough services. - Always have Concealment available. - Use spirits for general support. Your fellow team members can handle combat. - Water spirits can have Weather Control in addition to their Concealment. Pouring rain is not that uncommon in Seattle, and gives penalties to Perception. |
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Dec 27 2007, 01:46 PM
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#10
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
1) Guardian. Guard, Magical Guard and Concealment/Elemental Attack(depending on offensive/defensive combat spirit) at Force 4. Easily soaked drain. 2) Task or Man. Task if you want access to more skills or Man if you want an additional spellcasting platform. 3) None that can be accessed by a PC other than Ally. 4) Yes, see 2. Avoid possession traditions if you are inexperienced at running a summoner. |
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Dec 27 2007, 02:40 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
The answer to all those questions is one spirit: a possession Guardian spirit. Possess yourself with a force 5 Guardian and you get +10 hardened armor (that's over and above your worn armor), +5 all physical stats, dual natured astral perception, Guard and a bunch of other fun powers such as weapons skills and built in weapons. Physical Mask = Invisible Spirit. Cast Physical Mask on yourself (as you always should anyways) and it takes care of the possession spirit mentor shamanic mask effect. Get Channeling with your first initiation or you'll spend the rest of the game saying "ok I tell my spirit to walk across the room, I tell my spirit to sit down, I tell my spirit to take a drink, I tell my spirit to swallow..." The possession tradition (especially Voodoo) is over the top awesome, you never have to waste essence on skillwires because you can just possess yourself with a task spirit for all your tech skills and a guardian spirit for all your combat skills. One downside to a possession spirit: since you're dual natured, you'll bounce off Wards and Barriers, so keep your eyes open and have your spirit jump out of you, cross the ward, then use the metaplanar shortcut to bring him across undetected (burns 2 tasks = 1 for metaplanar shortcut and 1 for repossessing you all day for the purposes of protection, but may only be 1 task if you have a nice GM or Spirit Affinity). I have a "Possession FAQ" here on the boards that should help you with other questions. Hope this helps. |
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Dec 27 2007, 03:30 PM
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#12
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
This is not true. You can make a spirit look like anything or nothing. As long as people can perceive it at all they cannot mistake it for a non-spirit. A possession spirit gets a little easier ride in that people have to make a check equal to spotting spellcasting to identify it. But the Force 5 Guardian Spirit in your example is only threshold 1 to spot. Regardless of what powers it is or is not using, regardless of what disguises mundane or magical you use, the Loa of Ogoun is detected if they get a single hit on a perception test. That's absolute, and it is the best you're going to get - and it still sucks. Spirits aren't good at blending into crowds (except Insects) and they never will be (except insects). The only way to hide spirits is to literally hide them. Concealment is good for that. A high force spirit actually hides better by materializing (or possessing) and using Concealment than it does by submarining on the Astral Plane. -Frank |
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Dec 27 2007, 04:13 PM
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#13
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
BIG EDIT: I misread Buster's post and thought he'd said it wouldn't cost a service to get across a mana barrier. In fact he said the opposite and his take on it is mostly the same as mine. I'm leaving the paragraph below untouched because it's useful to have a take on what constitutes a service if you're a new summoner. But please mentally edit any parts where I said "Buster is wrong" to read "Buster is right." I remain kind of advising against picking a possession tradition for a new player, however.
Everything that Frank said about possession spirits, plus my own experience with possession spirits in play as follows: First off, Buster is making some assumptions about how the GM will play the spirit that definitely aren't universal and certainly wouldn't pass in my game. Ordering a spirit to get out of you for a minute so that you can cross a ward and then climb back in would use up a second service. It is very easy to burn through services with possession spirits. My general approach to defining a spirit service, and it's my advice to new GM's, is that a service should be easily defined and not resort to "macro-services" e.g. those that lead on to new ones. A command like "possess me and do as I say all day" is such a violation due to the "do as I say all day." It's rolling a bunch of services into one through the wording. That's an obvious abuse of power. Some people assume that spirits are like the genie in Aladdin and must do everything they are told, bound to the wording of the command, but it doesn't really fit. Each tradition has its way of dealing with spirits. Hermetics likely threaten or strike bargains, Shamans beseech aid in a common cause, Voodoun beg the honour of being ridden by the spirits, but none of them have the ability to suddenly "wish for a hundred wishes." Spirits are intelligent beings (they're smarter than most people you know by Force 4+). The whole dice rolling summoning process is what determines what you can get out of them. They don't sit there saying "gosh darn, he worded that command well - now I'm stuck here all day." Most GM's will give you short shrift if you expect to just take one fire elemental each morning and wear your super-suit all day long. Also, without the Channeling metamagic, you may be in for a slightly dull first few game sessions. Finally, there are some strong downsides to being a possession mage. For a start, you lack the extra man-power that you get with summoned spirits. No more swarms of cheap fire elementals providing back-up. Low force possession spirits are much less useful than low-force manifesting spirits due to the chancy process of having to find and possess someone. That predisposes you to binding higher forces with the concomitant costs. Furthermore, manifesting spirits, like drones, are excellent decoys, bullet sponges and disposable rear-guards. But if your chief tactic is to get possessed, then the opposition is now shooting at you. Less tactically attractive! I'm not saying that Possession mages aren't good. They are and they have advantages, but in my experience they are less good than manifesting spirits. And turning yourself into an inconsistently powerful samurai is also not as good as it may appear. |
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Dec 27 2007, 05:05 PM
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#14
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
I wouldn't call Possession traditions over the top awesome, although Voodoo has the best spirit layout of any stock tradition I've seen. Generally speaking, the more powerful your Mage is as an individual, the less you want to use possession traditions. Why? Because two pairs of hands can accomplish more than one; a powerful Sorceror and a powerful materialized Spirit is often going to accomplish much more than a single uber-entity. Materialization mages don't have to bother with making sure they have some sort of vessel available for all their spirits, bound or unbound, which is a pretty big advantage since workhorse Force Spirits (3-4, occasionally 6) aren't very reliable when it comes to forcing their way into unprepared vessels. On the other hand, characters like the Radical Eco Shaman can get some great use out of Possession traditions because they only really offer social skills and summoning in the first place, and generally if you're pulling Spirits out of your hat it's no longer time for subtlety, so letting the loa ride you isn't much of a loss.
Anyway, for a character who doesn't do much if any sorcery of their own, here's the spirits I think are particularly noteworthy: 1. Guardians, because they are awesome once given a firearm skill as an optional power; they're my favorite combat spirit and can counterspell. 2. Task Spirits. Pure awesomeness, even if they can't counterspell and kind of suck at combat. If nothing else they can take First Aid as an optional power. 3. Plant Spirits. Counterspellers, great base set of powers, high body and make great cannon fodder, especially if you manage to invoke one to great form for Regeneration. My favorite spirit type to have bound at low force due to the sheer number of utility powers they come with, although Silence and Regeneration are their only unique powers. Also move too damn slow. 4. Guidance Spirits. They come with a metamagic and can counterspell. 5. Air Spirit/Fire Spirits: Air Spirits at high force, Fire Spirits at low force; the air spirit has better stats and optional powers but the fire spirit is a bit more durable and has a slightly better base combat power set. They fly and are a great alternative to a Guardian Spirit if you don't have any spare weapons to hand over to Casper. Water Spirits are also worth considering for possession traditions due to their great all around attributes. Man spirits are awesome, but they're simply not suited for a character with few if any spells of their own like the Eco Shaman. |
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Dec 27 2007, 05:59 PM
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#15
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,711 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,716 |
Im going to dumb things down!!
-most disguisable spirit? All spirits show up primarily in astral plain first and only cast a hazy reflection into the physical plain. They shouldnt be a big problem visually unless you tell them to materialize which they will only do when they need to use their powers or skills on something that is only in the physical plain like a bunch of mundanes or a car. -Bound spirits stick around until you use all your services and can do things unbound spirits cant but its also very draining to bind them. Unless you need the extra things a bound spirit can do dont bother binding them. Of course you can only have one unbound spirit. On the other hand if you have bound spirits always make sure you rebind them before you use all your services so that they wont try to kill you if you screw up. |
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Dec 27 2007, 06:06 PM
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#16
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,711 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,716 |
Oh people keep saying beast and gaurdian for combat spirit. Air spirits who take the optional power "elemental attack" make a very good long range weapon. They get F+3 agility and F exotic ranged weapons with a damage value of F.
For a Force 6 air spirit that would be 15 dice to hit and 6DV elemental damage(probably lightning/cold) that can be unleashed anywhere the spirit can see. |
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Dec 27 2007, 06:27 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
What I said IS true because I specifically said "possession spirits", it's even right there in your quote, I'm not talking about free roaming regular spirits. Mundanes don't see the possession spirit in you, they see the "spectral byproducts" of the possession such as glowing eyes and spooky voice. So what I said is true: possess yourself, cast physical mask on yourself, and poof you've hidden all the spectral byproducts of the spirit. |
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Dec 27 2007, 06:30 PM
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#18
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
I'm not sure what post you're refering to, but MY post specifically said 2 tasks for the metaplanar shortcut trick (or 1 if you have a nice GM or spirit affinity), I also already covered Channeling. |
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Dec 27 2007, 06:37 PM
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#19
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Air Spirits are great but they don't counterspell and they pretty much need to be Force 6 and up to deal decent damage since Elemental Attack is a Complex Action. Meanwhile, a Force 3 Guardian has counterspelling, the same body as the Force 6 Air Spirit and when armed with a gun with a laser sight has 9 dice to attack with twice around and threatens to deal anywhere from 4P to 7P -3AP per hit. Move up to a Force 6 Guardian w/ laser sight and you're looking at 15 dice, more body, the same reaction and a far higher damage potential due to effectively having twice the number of attacks.
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Dec 27 2007, 06:39 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
I thought spirit attributes didn't really matter much for possession spirits, because they just add Force to the host's physical attributes, and you use the lower of the two willpowers for resisting mana spells? |
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Dec 27 2007, 07:49 PM
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#21
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
No. What you said is wrong. The book doesn't say that they see your glowing eyes or your spooky voice, they say:
You can cover the spirit withmakeup, physical mask, or a paper bag. It means precisely zilch because people don't see inhuman traits, they sense the inhumanity. It's different and there is absolutely nothing you can do short of the Realistic Form power that will cover that. Seriously, I wrote that section, I know what it says. -Frank |
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Dec 27 2007, 07:58 PM
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#22
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Yep. My bad. |
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Dec 27 2007, 10:37 PM
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#23
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Yes, sorry. You obviously didn't see the great big edit notice I put in there. I managed to get it in within about five minutes of posting the original, but oh, well. You did say the player needed to get channelling. I was just emphasising that it could be a dull first few games until he does. Really, my best advice to this player is to read through the descriptions of different magical traditions and then pick the one that he has the biggest emotional connection to. It's no good creating a Theurgist just because you want Guidance spirits. He needs to pick whatever he can roleplay best. And to some extent that extends to spirits. Who cares that a Beast spirit is stronger in close combat if you have a great mental image for a fire demon with a whip of flame! |
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Dec 28 2007, 01:48 AM
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Ah, no problemo. |
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Dec 28 2007, 01:50 AM
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Wait, what? So spirits don't possess people in any classical sense? They just sort of superimpose over a character/object like a hologram? Seems less Shadowrun and more Scooby Doo to me... |
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