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> Limit Break, GDs can do it!
ShaunClinton
post Dec 27 2007, 09:21 AM
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The published stats for Great Dragons allow for skills above the limits placed on mere humans. Not to mention that Spirits get access to skills at their Force rating, allowing for a whole slew of skills beyond the "Ultimate Ever" ™ skill level.

What's the beef with this? Are metahumans really so limited? Anyone come up with any good systems for getting rid of the hard caps?

I tried converting our SR3 characters to SR4 directly, ignoring the hard caps (numerous character have skills in the teens, twenties and a couple beyond that) and ended up with something that mostly worked but had some inconsistencies. The main problem with just ditching the hard caps is that magic just keeps boosting your attributes to silly levels!

Anyway, if anyone has a good method they have come up with for houseruling this stuff I'd be very interested to hear about it.

I'd respectfully ask that no-one leap in defending the hard-caps and the beauty of starting the game with a character who can't improve on his key skill. Please stay on topic.
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FrankTrollman
post Dec 27 2007, 10:48 AM
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What I've done is allow people to purchase their attributes and skills above the soft caps at double price. And that once you've done so the hard caps recalculate as normal. Essentially allowing people to "initiate" their Logic stat.

-Frank
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Ryu
post Dec 27 2007, 10:54 AM
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You could remove the hard caps on skills only? Be advised that you are fixing the wrong part of the equation if you allow your characters to break the game mechanic in the same way as high-force spirits do.
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Ustio
post Dec 27 2007, 10:59 AM
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In my high end game I use the following mechanic:

Skills 1-6 Normal cost

Skills 7+ Tripple cost

Skills 7+ Double cost with apptitude


This allowed the sammies and hackers to actually keep up with the mages in terms of growth potential
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ShaunClinton
post Dec 27 2007, 12:48 PM
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I like the idea of increasing the multiplier on skill learning as you go above level 6. This would allow for advancement, but at large karma costs. Eventually it would become unfeasible to increase.

What about attributes though? Surely it is possible to push the human body past 9 (or 10 or whatever!) through cyberware? But how do you get around the super high boosts magic can provide, or at least maintain some balance without everyone being awakened?
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Ryu
post Dec 27 2007, 01:07 PM
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It is possible by RAW, see Augmentation (cyberzombies). Stock metahumans have limits.

There will always be limits on what science can do. Why do you want to change the RAW limits? In SR3, ungodly numbers of dice where needed to get a realistic shot at a hard TN, but in SR4 unlimited pools just break the system.

With increasing numbers of dice, you can more and more rely on having 1/3 of your DP as successes. That makes the whole system somewhat binary. As most thresholds are build for the limited pools, only opposed tests continue to work. And those only in case of very uncommon opposition.
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knasser
post Dec 27 2007, 01:38 PM
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QUOTE (ShaunClinton)
I'd respectfully ask that no-one leap in defending the hard-caps and the beauty of starting the game with a character who can't improve on his key skill.


Well you'll not see much of me in this thread then, as I've a hard time keeping my mouth shut. :) But there's a one thing in your post that I can comment on as it might be an actual mistake.

QUOTE (ShaunClinton)
I tried converting our SR3 characters to SR4 directly, ignoring the hard caps (numerous character have skills in the teens, twenties and a couple beyond that) and ended up with something that mostly worked but had some inconsistencies. The main problem with just ditching the hard caps is that magic just keeps boosting your attributes to silly levels!


The scales for skills and attributes are different in SR4 than they were in SR3. You have to multiply by 2/3rds to get the equivalent value in 4th. E.g. a 4th edition magician with a Magic of 6 would be equivalent to someone with a 9 in 3rd edition! If you've just copied the numbers across the whole system is going to go crazy.

It's very important to know what the numbers actually mean. When you say:

QUOTE (ShaunClinton)
What's the beef with this? Are metahumans really so limited? Anyone come up with any good systems for getting rid of the hard caps?


Someone with Strength 5 is actually as physically strong as a lion. Strength 6 is stronger! Someone with Strength 7 and good Athletics is capable of leaping 23 feet across rooftops. They're not small numbers.
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FrankTrollman
post Dec 27 2007, 01:44 PM
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QUOTE (knasser)
Someone with Strength 5 is actually as physically strong as a lion. Strength 6 is stronger! Someone with Strength 7 and good Athletics is capable of leaping 23 feet across rooftops. They're not small numbers.


Yeah, the lifting and carrying rules are completely fubar, so it often gets lost how incredibly strong high strength characters actually are. The fact that I come out as something stupid like Strength 5 on the lifting scale despite my mediocre and pudgy physique doesn't mean that I'm Strength 5. It means that the lifting scale is messe up (as it is in virtually all games).

-Frank
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knasser
post Dec 27 2007, 03:24 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (knasser)
Someone with Strength 5 is actually as physically strong as a lion. Strength 6 is stronger! Someone with Strength 7 and good Athletics is capable of leaping 23 feet across rooftops. They're not small numbers.


Yeah, the lifting and carrying rules are completely fubar, so it often gets lost how incredibly strong high strength characters actually are. The fact that I come out as something stupid like Strength 5 on the lifting scale despite my mediocre and pudgy physique doesn't mean that I'm Strength 5. It means that the lifting scale is messe up (as it is in virtually all games).

-Frank


Yep. Lifting and carrying rules are one of the very small set of house-rules I have. I'm sure that the printed rules were a misguided attempt to make maximum lifts the results of incredible rolls. If my version is useful to anyone, I posted them here.

My site is down at the moment, but I've just put an illustration up on ImageShack that illustrates what the actual numbers translate into. It was created to show new players just how impressive augmented attributes actually were, but it might be relevant here as the attributes were only at 7's which is close to the human range and typical for augmented types and some metahumans.

What Would Samurai Do?

Hope this is useful.

(EDIT: Important Note: The distances, weights etc. in the chart are average roll results, not maximum capabilities. That makes them all the more impressive.)

-Khadim.
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Adarael
post Dec 27 2007, 06:53 PM
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QUOTE
With increasing numbers of dice, you can more and more rely on having 1/3 of your DP as successes. That makes the whole system somewhat binary. As most thresholds are build for the limited pools, only opposed tests continue to work. And those only in case of very uncommon opposition.


I just don't understand this statement. You can always bank on having 1/3rd of your DP as successes. That's the entire basis of the '5 and 6 as hits' system. Increasing the DP doesn't mystically mean that 'more of 1/3rd will be hits' - it just means that 1/3rd will be larger, kind of like the die pool. I also don't understand the complaint that 'only opposed tests continue to work'. Do you mean with superhuman die pools you'll be able to overpower any mundane task? Well, yeah. That's the point of having superhuman die pools, I thought.

Sure, you can use demolitions to defuse that nuke, no problem. But if you allow superhuman die pools for PCs, then it's your job as GM to make sure they have superhuman challenges. Don't make the static threshold for that 30 DP demolitions master just 5 successes. Make him defuse the nuke while upside down, using toothpicks and wire, on a speeding bullet train while being shot at. Dock him some dice and up the threshold to 8 or 9. That should be something he can still do. Make his success not neccessarily easier, but more epic and awesome.

Yes, the die pool system breaks down at superhuman levels, but only if you let it. If you choose to break the rules of the system, you have a responsibility to ensure they still continue to work.
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knasser
post Dec 27 2007, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE (Adarael @ Dec 27 2007, 06:53 PM)
QUOTE
With increasing numbers of dice, you can more and more rely on having 1/3 of your DP as successes. That makes the whole system somewhat binary. As most thresholds are build for the limited pools, only opposed tests continue to work. And those only in case of very uncommon opposition.


I just don't understand this statement. You can always bank on having 1/3rd of your DP as successes.


I believe his point was that as the size of the dice pool increases, the predictability of the result increases. Roll three dice, anything could happen. Roll 300 dice and you're likely to get 100 hits. (Well, you're not, but you can see what is meant). Thus you can be more certain whether or not you will achieve things.

Anyway, the poster asked specifically to not to be given feedback on whether removing the caps was a good idea or not. ;) If the poster wants a comic book style game, it can be done. Removing caps will do that, particularly when you factor in the increased power of Edge with larger dice pools and even Edge scores of more than 7! :eek:
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mfb
post Dec 27 2007, 09:48 PM
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QUOTE (Adarael)
Do you mean with superhuman die pools you'll be able to overpower any mundane task? Well, yeah. That's the point of having superhuman die pools, I thought.

with unlimited die pools, a character could fairly easily advance to the point where he could overpower even superhuman tasks. heck, it's not difficult to specialize to that point even without unlimited die pools. this isn't a problem if you are the sort of player who doesn't both enjoy a challenge and enjoy advancing your character without resorting to comic-bookery. if you are that sort of player, though, uncapping dice pools will really exacerbate the problem.

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Kyoto Kid
post Dec 27 2007, 10:19 PM
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QUOTE (knasser)
The scales for skills and attributes are different in SR4 than they were in SR3. You have to multiply by 2/3rds to get the equivalent value in 4th. E.g. a 4th edition magician with a Magic of 6 would be equivalent to someone with a 9 in 3rd edition! If you've just copied the numbers across the whole system is going to go crazy.

...but an adept with an MA of 6 in 4th ed. is still equivalent to an adept with an MA of 6 in 3rd ed. They really needed to recalculate the costs of some of the basic powers to fall more in line with the new scale.
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Stahlseele
post Dec 27 2007, 10:33 PM
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QUOTE
What Would Samurai Do?

lifting 300 kilo with STR of 7? . . that CAN'T be right . .
that would mean a Troll with STr of 14 could lift 600 kilo . .
O.K. i've moaned about how stupid the lifting rules are often enough . . mainly the times where the GM told me:"no, your strength 15 Troll can not lift the 70 kilo female elf of 1,8m size because you rolled like crap . ."
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Riley37
post Dec 27 2007, 10:38 PM
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QUOTE (ShaunClinton)
Are metahumans really so limited?

Compared to Great Dragons and spirits... my answer is yes, metahumans are limited. I want Great Dragons to be scary, and never to become the logical thing for PCs to take on next, or at least not directly. Yes, a Force 8+ spirit can shoot more accurately, or play piano better, or whatever, than any metahuman; well, that suits my conception of a spirit that only a master mage can summon, and my conception that dealing with such spirits should always be kinda risky for mortals. (That spirit is more cunning, more methodical, more subtle and more determined that the mortal who decided to yank it into our plane and hand it a chore list.) I'd consider a "diminishing returns" rule on high-Force Spirits, though, so that after Force 6, they get F/2 in additional ranks.

My answer might change if and when I play a street samurai who has maxed out all their combat stats and skills and the only place they have left to spend Karma is on secondary skills, CHA, and LOG, and is teamed up with a mage who's saving up for their 4th initiation (22 Karma) and Magic 10 (30 Karma). Then again, I might decide to make the sammie also a rigger or hacker or face.

The difference between flat-cost BP and rising-cost Karma, and thus the advantage of buying a key skill at Nobel Laureate level at chargen, is one which Frank Trollman has addressed by using BP only. I have the alternate solution of using Karma only; assume that your character was born with racial minima, and chargen represents the 500 Karma they spent between newborn status and starting play. (Actually, a newborn Ork doesn't yet have STR 3, but perhaps you get my point.) Any thoughts on that might merit a new thread.
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knasser
post Dec 27 2007, 11:07 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 27 2007, 10:33 PM)
QUOTE
What Would Samurai Do?

lifting 300 kilo with STR of 7? . . that CAN'T be right . .
that would mean a Troll with STr of 14 could lift 600 kilo . .
O.K. i've moaned about how stupid the lifting rules are often enough . . mainly the times where the GM told me:"no, your strength 15 Troll can not lift the 70 kilo female elf of 1,8m size because you rolled like crap . ."


Everything on that chart is based around average roll results under RAW with the exception of the lifting quantity, because the official rules are wildly divergent from reality. In that sole instance, I substituted in my own system as mentioned earlier, which is:

CODE
30kg per point of strength overhead, plus 5kg per successs on Bod+Str
55kg per point of strenght straight lift, plus 10kg per success on Bod+Str


The problem with the printed lifting rules is that they appear to be geared to producing your maximum lift with exceptionally good rolls but consequently produces a ridiculous variance. I don't bench 160lbs on my first set and then suddenly find that I do well on my second set a minute later and bench 240lbs (that would be nice). Hence I produced a very simple system that reduced variance but still let you do well with a good roll. I calibrated it according to my estimates of real world human strength.

Based on this system, the lift shown on the chart is slightly high, but close enough, I hope.

Figures here give me a men's world record of overhead lifting (by which I'm interpreting to mean "clean and jerk") of 263.5 kg (580.9 lb). At the time I wrote the system, I was considering this to be the result of Strength 6, though in retrospect, it should probably be a Strength 7 with Exceptional Attribute. As Body is a factor in the Shadowrun formula, however, and because it's unlikely for a real world person to have both Body and Strength at 7 such as the augmented human being can reasonably acquire, 300kg for the samurai is about right. Yes - it's a hideous amount of weight for a human being to lift.

Extending this to Trolls, it's not a straight multiplication. Doubling Strength and Body comes out at less than double the weight on average, but a troll with a Strength and Body of 10 each (about the World's Strongest, short of augmentation), would be able to lift a whopping 367kg or 800lbs overhead on an average lift. But then look at the cover of Runner Havens sometime. I figure the scale of the two figures is about right if the woman were 5'8" / 5'9".

I should probably re-do that chart to include some metahumans. Trolls are incredible physical specimens. Especially when it comes to running.
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Stahlseele
post Dec 27 2007, 11:31 PM
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QUOTE
I should probably re-do that chart to include some metahumans. Trolls are incredible physical specimens. Especially when it comes to running.

yes.
yes you should.
And one of those what would samurai do for trolls too?
pretty please?
with cherry on top? ^^
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knasser
post Dec 28 2007, 12:44 AM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele)
QUOTE
I should probably re-do that chart to include some metahumans. Trolls are incredible physical specimens. Especially when it comes to running.

yes.
yes you should.
And one of those what would samurai do for trolls too?
pretty please?
with cherry on top? ^^


Heh! :D

Okay. I'll see what I can do.
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Adarael
post Dec 28 2007, 01:07 AM
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QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (Adarael)
Do you mean with superhuman die pools you'll be able to overpower any mundane task? Well, yeah. That's the point of having superhuman die pools, I thought.

with unlimited die pools, a character could fairly easily advance to the point where he could overpower even superhuman tasks. heck, it's not difficult to specialize to that point even without unlimited die pools. this isn't a problem if you are the sort of player who doesn't both enjoy a challenge and enjoy advancing your character without resorting to comic-bookery. if you are that sort of player, though, uncapping dice pools will really exacerbate the problem.

Well, yes, this is true. But honestly, if you're going to make the decision to uncap skills and attributes such that a metahuman, through any combination of XP, cyber and magic can punch as hard as a dragon, out-manipulate a master shedim, and be tougher than a free spirit...well, you can't complain about being surprised when your players can punch through cars, create flash mobs on a whim, and survive tank rounds.

I don't mean to say this isn't a problem from one point of view. But to say it's a problem with the system where these kinds of characters can ace mundane, unresisted tasks... Well, it strikes me as a bit like complaining that you're unhappy the system has let the genie out of the bottle, after you've uncorked the thing yourself.
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mfb
post Dec 28 2007, 02:18 AM
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oh, yeah, if you uncap SR4, or any many-dice system that doesn't in some way mitigate the speed at which higher die pools make threshold irrelevant, you deserve what you get.
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ShaunClinton
post Dec 28 2007, 10:14 AM
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When I converted the SR3 characters across we used the whole 2/3 rule for skills and attributes. But that still left some hefty dice pools. I don't believe that those were a problem, as by setting suitably epic challenges that is not an issue. It is the interaction of other facets of the game that create the difficulties.

We went back to karma values for initiation and most characters ended up at about half the initiate grade they had been in SR3, but that still left the main mage with a magic attribute of 16. With his hefty increase spells on mental stats there was little to dissuade him from overcasting spells at force 32, such as manabolt/ball. Given the way these spells are resisted it made him extremely powerful in comparison to the power level he had displayed prior to conversion.

I guess this and spirits were the main beef. Summoning a high force spirit isn't easy due to the way the drain works, but this mage managed around a force 20, which is beastly. The force 20 spirit could overpower most of the other characters without too much difficulty, something it could not have done in SR3.

I suppose the shift away from high TNs to 5s makes a lot of difficult tasks relatively simple (summoning force 20 spirits, hitting Willpower 18 opponents with manabolts, resisting drain from force 32 spells). So perhaps there is a case for limiting the dice pools, but this is where my problems start.

The difference between skill level 5 and 7 is meant to be huge, but in practice the difference it makes (especially with marriage to attributes) is not that incredible. Increasing the range of skills available starts to create real distinction, not to mention that you can almost always get better at something.

In a system were the mage can keep increasing magic to get to the sort of power levels I describe above, I just find it sticks in my craw that the absolute best I can ever be at shooting comes from having firearms 7!

That's where I am coming from, and why I would like suggestions for how to fix the broken elements when the caps are removed. I suppose I could keep playing SR3, but there a lot of broken elements there to, and I like the elegance of SR4s system.
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FrankTrollman
post Dec 28 2007, 10:44 AM
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QUOTE
The difference between skill level 5 and 7 is meant to be huge, but in practice the difference it makes (especially with marriage to attributes) is not that incredible.


Yes, the chart is incredibly inane. Skill values by themselves mean almost nothing in the face of varying attributes, specializations, cybernetics, and equipment.

But the difference between a dicepool of 12 and a dicepool of 15 is huge. At that point you can do stupidly epic shit like blindfire (-6 dice) and still confidently expect to not glitch. You get extraordinary success like normally.

-Frank
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GentlemanLoser
post Dec 28 2007, 11:35 AM
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QUOTE
The difference between skill level 5 and 7 is meant to be huge, but in practice the difference it makes (especially with marriage to attributes) is not that incredible.


We houseruled the WoD to give a skill above 5 a -1 per point to your Target Number (taking the original 6+ down to 5+ for a sucess for example) in addition to the extra die to roll.

Just to show how awesome someone who has somehow broken the human maximum for a skill was.

And to actually give a reason for increasing skills over increasing attributes (or getting other dice pool increases).

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knasser
post Dec 28 2007, 11:44 AM
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QUOTE (ShaunClinton)
We went back to karma values for initiation and most characters ended up at about half the initiate grade they had been in SR3, but that still left the main mage with a magic attribute of 16. With his hefty increase spells on mental stats there was little to dissuade him from overcasting spells at force 32, such as manabolt/ball. Given the way these spells are resisted it made him extremely powerful in comparison to the power level he had displayed prior to conversion.


Wow! That's high. The karma alone to raise your magic attribute that high would be something like 600 including the initiation costs. That's what? About 120 missions to get that much karma? Plus you say the character has boosted drain stats?

There's not really much that can stand up to an attack from that sort of power. Shadowrun is set up to be a game where attack is stronger than defense in almost all cases. It's deliberate as it fosters the dependency on ruthless cunning and betrayal that's the game's hallmark.

If you're playing at that sort of power-level, you're going to have to make some very radical adjustments to accommodate it. For a start, you're going to have to find ways of providing counterspelling to anything and everything. A setting adjustment in which Guardian Spirits are commonly summoned and sold on would be a start. You could create some sort of anti-magic armour, some enchanted orichalcum, that provides counterspelling dice that samurai's etc can purchase. At these super-karma levels, a magician will have far outstripped any mundane counterparts for power, so you could institute some sort of karma for cash system, allowing Samurai to cyber themselves up to super-levels. At this level, they could play cyber-zombies from Augmentation. (And once Arsenal is out, I expect they could make viable Cyborg characters). One problem you will likely have is that the condition monitor wont keep pace with the increases in damage capability. A bad roll in a normal game might mean you take eight boxes. In your game, a bad roll could mean 16 boxes and insta-death. You might want to allow some sort of system of extending the condition monitor. Using the customised cyberlimbs rules in Augmentation should help the mundanes go some way to matching the magician character.

But in trying to adjust Shadowrun so that Attack = Defence, rather than Attack > Defence, you're going to alter it a lot. The game was set up so that people could dish out more than they could take. A character with that level of power could realistically be assassinated just to remove the threat.

I can solve your Force 20 spirit summoning, however. A Force 20 spirit is a mighty creature, ancient and wise - a veritable Prince of the Metarealms. It's going to resent being summoned by some mortal wizard to beat up a few dragons. So have it use Edge on its summoning or binding test. That's perfectly legitimate and spirits sometimes do that in my game if the magician has been treating them particularly poorly.
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Ryu
post Dec 28 2007, 11:44 AM
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It was kindly explained for me already. More dice = more reliable results. That creates the issue of "no variance" in performance. All normal tasks are no problem.

Normal thresholds are of no concern because your expected hits are usually double the threshold. High threshold tests suffer from the "no variance" part.
Why? High thresholds require more dice to beat. The more dice you have, the more predictable the result of a given roll. One look at your dicepool tells you if you succeed or fail, unless the threshold is close to your mean hits. Any challenging threshold needs to be set for a specific player, generic challenges do not work because DP sizes vary. If something is challenging, "edge for reroll" translates to "success".

Extended tests are already a weak mechanic for challenges, they mostly work for determining time. Your hackers will have a high software skill, but else little damage can be done here.

Opposed tests work because the opposition might have similar dice pools. Still, the issue of you overpowering every non-cyberzombie has to be considered. See the pornomancer threads, AKA breaking the social skill system. Also consider what a hacker can do in his spare time.


(What they should have done instead of the skill level thingy is a DP=qualification table. DP size determines ability. Increasing the importance of skill vs. everything else would not have been that hard to do. Limit extended test rolls by skill, cap hits by skill+1, whatever.)
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