Explaining more things to new players

Explaining more things to new players, How would you go about it?

Options

knasser

Jan 2 2008, 07:02 PM

Post #26

Shadow Cartographer

Group: Members
Posts: 3,737
Joined: 2-June 06
From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West)
Member No.: 8,636

QUOTE (Cardul)

I always assume that "martial arts" is basing on a particular style. Every style has its holes. Muy Thai, for instance, uses knees and elbows for the majority of it, and has very little in the way of actual defense. judo, however, is all about locks, grapples, and throws. Human Weapon on History Channel is a great show, even if the martial arts people are going REALLY easy on the poor Americans. I could just imagine a Troll Savateur....I Kick you..through the WALL!

Far, far, far too easy to get into a conversation about what a particular martial art can and cannot do. I studied Wing Chun Kung Fu for a while. Blocking, kicking, striking. Seemed like it had everything I could want apart from groundwork, but I expect somebody somewhere can pop up and say "in such and such a style, there was a lot of emphasis on groundwork, too" and who would I be to argue?

I added Larger Opponents and Smaller Opponents to the close combat specialisations in my game. You can quite easily see a troll or a dwarf getting used to fighting opponents of a certain category. Armed Opponents and Unarmed Opponents were two others. Useful and believable specialisations that don't depend on long arguments with practicing martial artists in the middle of a game session. ;)

kzt View Member Profile	Jan 2 2008, 07:24 PM Post #27
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234	I'd be happier if there were 7 guns total: 1 light pistol, 1 pistol, 1 shotgun, 1 rifle, 1 assault rifle, 1 MMG, 1 HMG. Bang, that's it. You can call is whatever you want, but they all work the same and have the same stats. It's the craziness of people who don't understand the difference between a magazine and clip, or between "rate of fire" and "muzzle velocity" trying to write detailed gun descriptions and rules that annoys me the most. I feel the same with unarmed combat, or melee combat in general, armed or unarmed. It's actually too granular now, with the blades, clubs, unarmed skills, when in reality they all tend to blend together. Is using a wooden bokken to kill someone (as Miyamoto Musashi did in multiple duels) Blades or Clubs? Why? It's used exactly like a sword, but it has no cutting edge.

knasser

Jan 2 2008, 07:42 PM

Post #28

Shadow Cartographer

Group: Members
Posts: 3,737
Joined: 2-June 06
From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West)
Member No.: 8,636

QUOTE (kzt)

I'd be happier if there were 7 guns total: 1 light pistol, 1 pistol, 1 shotgun, 1 rifle, 1 assault rifle, 1 MMG, 1 HMG. Bang, that's it. You can call is whatever you want, but they all work the same and have the same stats.

Do I take it you wont be buying Arsenal, then? :P

Aaron

Jan 2 2008, 07:44 PM

Post #29

Mr. Johnson

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,148
Joined: 27-February 06
From: UCAS
Member No.: 8,314

QUOTE (kzt)

Is using a wooden bokken to kill someone (as Miyamoto Musashi did in multiple duels) Blades or Clubs? Why? It's used exactly like a sword, but it has no cutting edge.

As someone who has actually hit other people really hard with both sticks and swords, I can say that it has been my experience that smacking people with a stick is different from smacking them with a sword, enough so that if a car and a motorboat are different skills, then so should blades and clubs be.

That being said, the skills are related. Of course, if that were to be simulated properly in Shadowrun, we'd have to go back to the skill web. Do we really want to go back to the skill web?

Moon-Hawk

Jan 2 2008, 07:46 PM

Post #30

Genuine Artificial Intelligence

Group: Members
Posts: 4,019
Joined: 12-June 03
Member No.: 4,715

QUOTE (Aaron)

That being said, the skills are related. Of course, if that were to be simulated properly in Shadowrun, we'd have to go back to the skill web. Do we really want to go back to the skill web?

I'm sorry, I must not be reading this right. Are you questioning the sheer awesomeness of the skill web?
;)

kzt

Jan 2 2008, 08:03 PM

Post #31

Great Dragon

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234

QUOTE (Aaron)

As someone who has actually hit other people really hard with both sticks and swords, I can say that it has been my experience that smacking people with a stick is different from smacking them with a sword, enough so that if a car and a motorboat are different skills, then so should blades and clubs be.

That being said, the skills are related. Of course, if that were to be simulated properly in Shadowrun, we'd have to go back to the skill web. Do we really want to go back to the skill web?

So why does kenjutsu train and practice with bokken if it's so different than hitting people with a katana? It's used exactly like a katana.

And I like the skill web.

Whipstitch

Jan 3 2008, 01:39 AM

Post #32

Runner

Group: Members
Posts: 2,883
Joined: 16-December 06
Member No.: 10,386

QUOTE (Aaron @ Jan 2 2008, 02:44 PM)

As someone who has actually hit other people really hard with both sticks and swords, I can say that it has been my experience that smacking people with a stick is different from smacking them with a sword, enough so that if a car and a motorboat are different skills, then so should blades and clubs be.

This is exactly what people are getting at when they say it's simply too complicated to be worth trying to implement.

The classic example that's been brought up here on dumpshock before is how to implement escrima as anything other than taking the tremendously expensive close combat group. While it's obviously a bit of an oversimplification, it can be said that perhaps the most basic philosophy behind escrima is that there's only so many angles of attack out there so defending against most tactics is going to be inherently similar regardless of the tools being used. So by teaching "movement groups" and treating weapons only as a way to extend reach and add leverage or cutting edges, you CAN learn to use a knife much the same way you use an escrima stick and you can use an escrima stick much the same way you can use your fist to club someone on the side of the neck. The style is quite literally an attempt at a sort of unified theory of muscle memory; the final goal is that you are capable of using knives, sticks and fists equally well by employing the same fundamental movements.

Personally, I'd stick within the RAW and just tell my players to suck it up and take the whole close combat group and say you were taught escrima, but it's just another example of why it's a lot better to just say "These are the skills you use for fighting; pay for what you want to be good at and call it whatever you want" than it is to try and outright marry styles to the RAW. At the end of the day you end up with the same result and about a quarter of the confusion.

hyzmarca

Jan 3 2008, 02:29 AM

Post #33

Midnight Toker

Group: Members
Posts: 7,686
Joined: 4-July 04
From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop
Member No.: 6,456

QUOTE (kzt)

QUOTE (Aaron)

As someone who has actually hit other people really hard with both sticks and swords, I can say that it has been my experience that smacking people with a stick is different from smacking them with a sword, enough so that if a car and a motorboat are different skills, then so should blades and clubs be.

That being said, the skills are related. Of course, if that were to be simulated properly in Shadowrun, we'd have to go back to the skill web. Do we really want to go back to the skill web?

So why does kenjutsu train and practice with bokken if it's so different than hitting people with a katana? It's used exactly like a katana.

Because free sparing with live blades tends to result in death. Its the same reason why military wargames tend to use MILES. Bullets aren't lasers and bullets don't behave like lasers. But, a training regiment that involves killing at least half of your soldiers isn't exactly very smart.

Many tactics that work well with a bokken don't work with a katana, so the training must be regimented to prevent individuals from developing bad habits and actual cutting training is necessary to develop correct follow-through. But, it is better than just having them hack off each other's limbs.

kzt View Member Profile	Jan 3 2008, 03:02 AM Post #34
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234	Kenjutsu doesn't do much free sparring as far as I know, isn't it mostly all kata? Kendo does, and they use a flexible bamboo "sword" and wear armor. Bokken kill people. It's what Miyamoto Musashi used to kill some silly number of people, who were mostly armed with metal swords.

Inu

Jan 3 2008, 03:53 AM

Post #35

Target

Group: Members
Posts: 79
Joined: 23-August 06
Member No.: 9,205

QUOTE (Whipstitch)

Yeah, we have done this before, hence my deja vu all over again statement.

Anyway, I truly despise the notion of splitting up unarmed combat into different styles on any mechanical level. I've yet to see a good reason for doing so, because at its heart Shadowrun is an abstract game and the funny thing about styles of unarmed combat is that they're already covered by a li'l skill called, oddly enough, unarmed combat.

Honestly, the styles should be left as a fluff concern; it's a level of granularity we don't need to play the game and using martial arts names as choices for specializations is needlessly messy and reductive at best and evolves into a massive point sink at worst. People keep tossing around the notion that "most people have an idea of what a style is like" and you know what? That's wrong. A lot of dumpshock gym rats, martial artist wannabes and children of the 80s will know anecdotal information about styles (it was after all, the Decade of the TV Ninja) but the overflowing ranks of McDojos filled with people who have no idea what they're talking about will attest that frankly, even most people who know the names of styles are talking out of their asses. The RAW doesn't assume that you know something about firearms as you choose specializations, (hell, SR firearms work best with a healthy dose of blissfull ignorance, actually) it just splits the guns up into various categories and then you pick your poison. By the same token Unarmed combat shouldn't be any different; you should choose your specializations by method only. The bullshido experts may cry foul the same as some of the gun nuts, but at the end of the day the game's a lot easier to play.

Hell, as it is now the RAW can handle anything if you consider "Martial Arts" to mean "Striking" and go with the maneuver specialization method. Let's say your character's an aspiring young boxer and he's pretty raw, but man, does he have a sweet left that just screams promise. He's got Unarmed 2 with the Striking Specialization. And his wily old training partner? Well, maybe he's old and out of condition now so his attributes took a hit, but he still knows his footwork and always manages to keep his gloves up, so he's got a 4 Unarmed Combat with the blocking/parry specialization. And maybe those two don't know anything about wrestling, but they're scrappy and know how to back down people by threatening a jab, and someone shoots in on them should do so at their own risk. This paradigm works for simulating just about any form of unarmed combat you can think of, really, and complete martial artists truly well versed in about any method of combat you can think of merely fall into the 4-7 skill range even before specializations. What methods these people trained by however, should be merely a fluff concern. As it stands now it sounds like most people who choose a style just end up picking striking, parry, or subdual anyway, they just call it whatever the hell style tickles their fancy at the moment.

I'm glad you have an opinion! =)

By the book, 'Martial Arts' is an appropriate specialisation. I dont' like that either; a specialisation should never be so broad as to apply whenever a skill is used. There is no reason, ever, that a character wouldn't get the +2 bonus. So I agree htere.

But it IS by the rules. So if you don't like it, you either suck it up or you change the rules. The simpler way is yours. A more complex way is mine. I happen to like mine, 'cause it get some flavour in there without really making it more difficult. And note that nothing about my system requires you to know anything about the art; all arts are mechanically equal. As I said, when I run, even 'streetfighting' gets a +2, same as kung fu or whatever else you care to be using.

If you don't like it, good for you. =) I do like it, and I was putting it out here in case anyone else liked it, too. Use or ignore at your pleasure.

ElFenrir View Member Profile	Jan 3 2008, 04:37 AM Post #36
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,168 Joined: 15-April 05 From: Helsinki, Finland Member No.: 7,337	Inu, im like you in the way of 'whatever works'. I do whatever works best for us, but i also like to see what others do. Myself, i love to let people pick martial arts to specialize in. It adds flavor and adds specialization possibilities. It might end up with a little more to chew, but not much. Basically, i ask people if they want a specialization in unarmed. If yes, pick a type. Then see if its offensive or defensive. That's when you use the bonus. It's pretty simple and even new people ive found can understand it. As for other things, just pick something. Blades? Knives, swords, cyber implants, parrying. Easy enough. I do like mixing in fluff, not to massive extents, but enough to have fun.

Aaron

Jan 3 2008, 04:43 AM

Post #37

Mr. Johnson

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,148
Joined: 27-February 06
From: UCAS
Member No.: 8,314

QUOTE (kzt)

So why does kenjutsu train and practice with bokken if it's so different than hitting people with a katana? It's used exactly like a katana.

There are a couple of reasons. First, have you ever tried to regularly maintain a katana? Second, bokito are far cheaper than the real thing. Third, they can be used in pairs practice and kata without having to worry about injuring anybody; it's true that kenjutsu isn't about sparring, but you can still screw up a kata, and we do not go slowly when we're doing it for real.

There are some forms that use real katana, but I've only ever seen my sensei use one (who had been studying kendo and kenjutsu since WWII), and he only ever used it for iaido (which is awesome to watch).

As to killing people with bokken, I suppose you could, but it would take some effort. I could probably clock you pretty good with a bokken, and it would sting like a bitch, but I really think my bokken would break before your forehead did, unless I hit you just right. I'd really be better off with a two-by-four if I wanted you dead.

There is, on the other hand, a wooden sword called a suburito that is a heavy version of the bokken, used for single work on forms and building muscle. Many scholars believe that Musashi was using a suburito when he killed all those people. Those things mass more like a baseball bat. You could do a number on somebody with one of those.

QUOTE

And I like the skill web.

I like the idea of it. I thought it was awesome back in '89. I'm just sad because it lacks inherent scalability.

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Jan 3 2008, 03:58 PM Post #38
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	Consider: Unarmed Combat has the worst melee damage code you can get. Any other weapon will take that same damage and make it better, and maybe give you more dice from reach. Maybe a specialization in martial arts (usable pretty much all the time) is an attempt to re-balance and keep kung-fu-badass-types playable and balanced. Maybe it's an overpowered specialization because it's an underpowered skill. Just a thought. It may not be realistic, but if playing a kung-fu-motherf***er was considered a desirable design goal, then it may be on purpose.

Konsaki

Jan 3 2008, 05:25 PM

Post #39

Runner

Group: Members
Posts: 2,526
Joined: 9-April 06
From: McGuire AFB, NJ
Member No.: 8,445

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

Consider: Unarmed Combat has the worst melee damage code you can get. Any other weapon will take that same damage and make it better, and maybe give you more dice from reach. Maybe a specialization in martial arts (usable pretty much all the time) is an attempt to re-balance and keep kung-fu-badass-types playable and balanced.
Maybe it's an overpowered specialization because it's an underpowered skill.

Just a thought. It may not be realistic, but if playing a kung-fu-motherf***er was considered a desirable design goal, then it may be on purpose.

For a mundane, yes, unarmed sucks.
For an adept... no, unarmed can be one of the most damaging skills out there.
Troll /w S10
Unarmed Combat R6
Str Boost R6 (1.5m)
Killing Hands (.5m)
Critical Strike R6 (1.5m)
Penetrating Strike R3 (.75m)
Skill boost - Unarmed Combat R3 (1.5m)

Comes down to a fully boosted troll adept having a damaging hit of 11P -3AP to any random person or thing. Factor in net hits and almost anything he hits, short of a citymaster, gets a nice hole blown through it... and yes I have seen this setup played, though not by me.

Moon-Hawk

Jan 3 2008, 06:13 PM

Post #40

Genuine Artificial Intelligence

Group: Members
Posts: 4,019
Joined: 12-June 03
Member No.: 4,715

QUOTE (Konsaki)

For an adept... no, unarmed can be one of the most damaging skills out there.
Troll /w S10
Unarmed Combat R6
Str Boost R6 (1.5m)
Killing Hands (.5m)
Critical Strike R6 (1.5m)
Penetrating Strike R3 (.75m)
Skill boost - Unarmed Combat R3 (1.5m)

Comes down to a fully boosted troll adept having a damaging hit of 11P -3AP to any random person or thing. Factor in net hits and almost anything he hits, short of a citymaster, gets a nice hole blown through it... and yes I have seen this setup played, though not by me.

In an extreme case, yes, unarmed has the highest maximum.

But for a more general comparison, using a combat axe instead of unarmed is worth two points of skill boost (the two dice from reach), killing hands (it's already physical), four levels of critical strike, and a level of penetrating strike. 2.75 power points worth, for simply choosing a different weapon. For equal strength, skill, and boosters thereof.

Granted, it's not concealable (and that's huge, I don't mean to downplay it), but 2.75 power points. And you can make it a weapon focus, which you may or may not be able to get away with for unarmed combat, depending on your GM.

Stahlseele View Member Profile	Jan 3 2008, 06:31 PM Post #41
The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525	Distance Strike, meaning that Damage in a Circle of a 6m diameter around you without ANY means of retaliation from your opponent aside from shooting/throwing/spelling things g

Sponge

Jan 3 2008, 08:38 PM

Post #42

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 433
Joined: 8-November 07
Member No.: 14,097

QUOTE (kzt)

So why does kenjutsu train and practice with bokken if it's so different than hitting people with a katana? It's used exactly like a katana.

You use the bokken exactly like a katana in kenjutsu, because you're really training in how to use a katana (without the danger of killing your classmates), not how to use a wooden stick. If you were really training to be whacking people with wooden sticks instead of katanas, you wouldn't be training the same way.

I bet you don't grip your bokken by the "blade", for example, but if you were to treat it as an actual stick instead of a pretend katana, that would be a valid and useful thing to do.

DS

Fortune

Jan 3 2008, 09:02 PM

Post #43

Immoral Elf

Group: Members
Posts: 15,247
Joined: 29-March 02
From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat
Member No.: 2,486

QUOTE (Stahlseele)

Distance Strike, meaning that Damage in a Circle of a 6m diameter around you without ANY means of retaliation from your opponent aside from shooting/throwing/spelling things

Which is why that inane Power does not exist in my games.

Whipstitch View Member Profile	Jan 3 2008, 10:05 PM Post #44
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386	I dunno, I think distance strike and adept martial artists are extremely overrated in general. Distance strike still takes a complex action to use, has limited range at best (and only goes downhill with 'ware added) and is subject to cover modifiers, so that "circle" isn't so great if someone's behind you since you'd be blind firing and they can still go on full defense. It's potentially pretty damaging, but it's also expensive as hell (15 bps even if that's all you are going for by making the pc an adept) so the character will almost assuredly be a one trick pony. Really, the only true benefit here is total concealment. For the most part I'd rather take a troll bow or a throwing adept with Missile Mastery, since the former is all-powerful and can be used twice a round with the right Adept Powers while the former is a lot cheaper, has better range and lets you kill people with a a hand full of marbles, so it's not really any less concealable. Really, were I to make a character with a strong bent towards unarmed combat, it'd simply be an ork with Wired Reflexes, high boosted attributes, Ultimate Champion custom cyberlimbs, reflex recorders and the subdual (as far as I'm concerned, Unarmed is for Defense and capturing people) or parry specialization. Such a character could actually fare pretty well against Konsaki's Adept because it'd have more initiative passes to use on full defense as well as a higher pool for defense in general thanks to the the boosted reaction score. And since it'd be a mundane street samurai I'd be willing to bet there'd be a LOT more points laying around to spend on Automatics and social skills than with a pure adept.

Ryu View Member Profile	Jan 3 2008, 10:13 PM Post #45
Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309	Yep, or even a char with classic cyberspurs (+ Bone Lacing if you add that up like we do).

Fortune View Member Profile	Jan 3 2008, 10:20 PM Post #46
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	Wrong thread! :eek: :D

TheOneRonin

Jan 4 2008, 03:32 PM

Post #47

Running Target

Group: Members
Posts: 1,109
Joined: 16-October 03
From: Raleigh, NC
Member No.: 5,729

QUOTE (Cardul)

I always assume that "martial arts" is basing on a particular style. Every style has its holes. Muy Thai, for instance, uses knees and elbows for the majority of it, and has very little in the way of actual defense. judo, however, is all about locks, grapples, and throws. Human Weapon on History Channel is a great show, even if the martial arts people are going REALLY easy on the poor Americans. I could just imagine a Troll Savateur....I Kick you..through the WALL!

"Human Weapon" is complete bullshit. I starting training in Muay Thai back in 91, and I promise you it's MUCH more defensive than you think. And FYI, we do not use knees and elbows for the majority of our attacks...I'm just going to stop here before I get any more angry at that damn show. They murdered my precious Arnis (Kali/Escrima) too...

Why can't these damn shows have at least a modicum of accuracy?

It's like people saying "Tae Kwon Do is a very useful style of Martial Arts..."

Yeah, it might come in handy if you ever need to unhorse Chinese cavalry...

kzt View Member Profile	Jan 4 2008, 06:24 PM Post #48
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234	Sounds so very ShadowRun..... :P

Kyoto Kid

Jan 4 2008, 06:36 PM

Post #49

Bushido Cowgirl

Group: Members
Posts: 5,782
Joined: 8-July 05
From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats
Member No.: 7,490

QUOTE (Whipstitch)

For the most part I'd rather take a troll bow or a throwing adept with Missile Mastery, since the former is all-powerful and can be used twice a round with the right Adept Powers while the former is a lot cheaper, has better range and lets you kill people with a hand full of marbles.

...or baseballs. :grinbig:

Whipstitch

Jan 5 2008, 03:49 PM

Post #50

Runner

Group: Members
Posts: 2,883
Joined: 16-December 06
Member No.: 10,386

QUOTE (TheOneRonin)

QUOTE (Cardul)

I always assume that "martial arts" is basing on a particular style. Every style has its holes. Muy Thai, for instance, uses knees and elbows for the majority of it, and has very little in the way of actual defense. judo, however, is all about locks, grapples, and throws. Human Weapon on History Channel is a great show, even if the martial arts people are going REALLY easy on the poor Americans. I could just imagine a Troll Savateur....I Kick you..through the WALL!

"Human Weapon" is complete bullshit. I starting training in Muay Thai back in 91, and I promise you it's MUCH more defensive than you think. And FYI, we do not use knees and elbows for the majority of our attacks...I'm just going to stop here before I get any more angry at that damn show. They murdered my precious Arnis (Kali/Escrima) too...

Erm, yeah, Muay Thai is very often misrepresented. I think people fixate on the elbows because they can cause nasty cuts and sometimes end a fight outright, but yeah, for the meat and potatos of backing down your opponents and controlling space it's really all about kicks, jabs, and of course, good, solid footwork, just like most other stand up fighting styles. But really, were I to praise MT, the stand up defense would be the first thing I'd actually start talking about. Muay thai, much like boxing, is wonderfully accepting of the fact that fighting can you know, actually hurt, and that against anyone competent you should probably get used to the idea that you will likely get hit once in a while. There's a lot of emphasis on simply becoming a stupidly hardened individual, as well as stepping into and knocking strikes off target before the attacker has built up any momentum, robbing their power, and of course, footwork, footwork, footwork. I suppose you might be able to say some styles emphasize getting out of the way entirely a bit more (I don't really think so, but whatever), but I wouldn't be so quick to necessarily call that a good thing; some attackers are ridiculously quick and it's a bit naive to think that learning some damage control won't do you some good. Basically, the attitude is that sometimes you will get hit, so get hit where it won't hurt. And if even after your best effort and best block it still hurt? Cry more noob. Get back to conditioning. :D

As for Arnis, all I know is that my step-uncle has been taking it most of his life and that a lot of what I just said about Muay Thai holds true for that art as well. I especially like their attitude towards knife fighting: basically, expect to get cut if your opponent is any good. Run away or try to take it in the arm if you have to and hope for the best. A bit sobering, perhaps, but it's a lot better advice than you'll get from some people.

« Next Oldest · Shadowrun · Next Newest »