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> Spirit Questions, Machine-Visibility and Unconsciousness
Riley37
post Jan 4 2008, 11:45 AM
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When a spirit manifests, does it form a body made of solid matter or ectoplasm?
That would certainly be consistent with elementals - even fire, water and air - taking damage from attacks such as monowires and bullets, that work by puncturing, cutting or tearing matter.
If it's made of solid matter, then cameras can see it, it has weight and mass, etc.

If not, then manifested spirits are visible only to live observers, and invisible to cameras and drones, cf. the distinction between Phantasm and Trid Phantasm. This could be abusable.

Does a spirit require constant concentration to remain connected to our reality? If it gets knocked out, eg by the proverbial Force 12 Stunball "tacnuke headache", does it zap back to spirit-land, and if so, does the summoner lose its services? or does it remain here?

if it's manifested, solid, and unconscious, can one pick it up and carry it around (with tongs if it's fire, and insulated gloves if it's air spirit with Elemental Attack)?
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FrankTrollman
post Jan 4 2008, 12:09 PM
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Materialized spirits are physically present and can be touched, tasted, or heard.

A materialized spirit which is knocked unconscious is disrupted. It won't be back for weeks.

A possessed or inhabitting spirit which is knocked out is still physically present (and knocked out).

-Frank
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Mr. Unpronouncea...
post Jan 4 2008, 05:00 PM
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Assuming you do, in fact, mean manifested, then yes it's a psychic projection - they're not physically there at all.

QUOTE (sr4 pg. 184)

Manifesting
If a purely astral form such as a spirit or an astrally projecting magician wishes to interact with the physical plane, she must manifest. Manifesting is the opposite of astral perception—the extending of the senses onto the physical plane. Manifesting takes a Simple Action to engage or disengage. Manifesting characters and spirits appear on the physical plane as ghostly, hazy images and may freely communicate with physical characters. Unlike the Materialization power of spirits (p. 289), manifesting does not create a physical form, and so the character cannot physically interact with anything, nor can she be harmed by physical attacks. Because manifestation is a psychic eff ect, manifested characters cannot be detected, recorded, or affected by technological devices. Manifesting characters and spirits, however, are vulnerable to mana-based magical effects on the physical plane. Likewise, manifesting beings are still subject to astral attacks.


edit:
and spirits can't be "knocked out" - while they do have both a physical and a stun track, as soon as either of them is filled, they are disrupted (sr4 pg. 177)
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Karaden
post Jan 4 2008, 05:11 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Materialized spirits are physically present and can be touched, tasted, or heard.

That of course raises the question: What do spirits taste like?
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hyzmarca
post Jan 4 2008, 05:30 PM
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QUOTE (Karaden @ Jan 4 2008, 12:11 PM)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jan 4 2008, 07:09 AM)
Materialized spirits are physically present and can be touched, tasted, or heard.

That of course raises the question: What do spirits taste like?

It varies from spirit to spirit.

I once knew this Aztlaner Fire Spirit who tasted like fresh Jalapeño peppers. Man, she was a wild one. She could do this thing that would just make your toes curl. mmm. I had this burning sensation all over for days afterward, but it was worth it.

Then there was this saucy Canadian water spirit who tasted exactly like vanilla Hagen Dazs. I could have eaten her for weeks except that the guy who summoned her was trying to kill me and she used her engulf power (which was actually sort of fun, but I'm not really into breath play) so I had to disrupt her and shoot him twice in his face. I've been looking for her again ever since, but the spirit realms are so huge that it is almost impossible to track down a single conjured spirit.

And then there was that Soho air spirit who looked like a cloud, felt like a marshmallow, and tasted like warm cotton candy.
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Stahlseele
post Jan 4 2008, 05:34 PM
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you are one sick puppy O.o;,
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darthmord
post Jan 4 2008, 05:43 PM
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Sick puppy...

Isn't that another way of spelling "Great Dragon"?
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Karaden
post Jan 4 2008, 06:02 PM
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Ok, we've all had our intiment relations with various spirits, but the fourms arn't the place to talk about them. :grinbig:
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knasser
post Jan 4 2008, 06:53 PM
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Much funniness. But I'm glad that he stopped before he got to Spirit of Man.
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Moon-Hawk
post Jan 4 2008, 08:15 PM
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I thought they tasted like Dikote.
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Fortune
post Jan 4 2008, 08:18 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
I thought they tasted like Dikote.

That's only Ally Spirits. ;)
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Dashifen
post Jan 4 2008, 08:49 PM
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I thought they tasted like Dikote and gun oil ......
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Fortune
post Jan 4 2008, 08:56 PM
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Only the really good ones.
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Sponge
post Jan 4 2008, 10:04 PM
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This thread gives a whole new meaning to "smells like teen spirit"....
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Riley37
post Jan 4 2008, 10:08 PM
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Thanks for the point re manifest vs materialize.
So why the heck do air, fire and water spirits materialize as solid matter?
Or are they fluid, but disrupted by things passing through them as, say, patterns of ripples are disrupted by bullets putting shockwaves through them? and the rules happen not to include damage modifiers for the fact that a monowire and a regular wire are equal in that regard?

Oh man, the cans of worms I inadvertently open.
Spirit of Man via Brad Neely:
"He smelt like the future
His words felt like flowers
And if he shook your hand you'd make love with it for hours"

If you summon a Spirit of Beast with beak, feathers, and wings, materialize it, then kill and eat it, it will taste like chicken.

If you summon a Spirit of Water, and have it materialize on top of a watermill and flow down, can you harvest the release of potential energy? If you summon a fire spirit, and you direct it to keep the water in a container boiling, and that container happens to be the chamber for a steam turbine, do you get kilowatts of output equal to the spirit's Force? more for Great Form?
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Stahlseele
post Jan 4 2008, 10:11 PM
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and that's where the problem with magitech comes in again and the question as to why such things are not more common . .
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Moon-Hawk
post Jan 4 2008, 10:11 PM
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QUOTE (Riley37)
If you summon a fire spirit, and you direct it to keep the water in a container boiling, and that container happens to be the chamber for a steam turbine, do you get kilowatts of output equal to the spirit's Force?

Attempts at perpetual motion machines result in gradually increasing background count until the spell or spirit in question self-disrupts.

At least, that's how I'd make the problem go away if a player tried this crap.
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Stahlseele
post Jan 4 2008, 10:15 PM
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same problem, still cheaper to do such a spell/spirit and enhance it with karma . . which, in game terms, is basically just spending time for one specific purpose . .
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hyzmarca
post Jan 4 2008, 10:27 PM
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Because the total energy output of a fire spirit's elemental attack over time is not enough to heat enough water to offset conjuring costs.
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Mr. Unpronouncea...
post Jan 4 2008, 10:52 PM
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QUOTE (Riley37)
Thanks for the point re manifest vs materialize.
So why the heck do air, fire and water spirits materialize as solid matter?
Or are they fluid, but disrupted by things passing through them as, say, patterns of ripples are disrupted by bullets putting shockwaves through them? and the rules happen not to include damage modifiers for the fact that a monowire and a regular wire are equal in that regard?

Oh man, the cans of worms I inadvertently open.
Spirit of Man via Brad Neely:
"He smelt like the future
His words felt like flowers
And if he shook your hand you'd make love with it for hours"

If you summon a Spirit of Beast with beak, feathers, and wings, materialize it, then kill and eat it, it will taste like chicken.

If you summon a Spirit of Water, and have it materialize on top of a watermill and flow down, can you harvest the release of potential energy? If you summon a fire spirit, and you direct it to keep the water in a container boiling, and that container happens to be the chamber for a steam turbine, do you get kilowatts of output equal to the spirit's Force? more for Great Form?

While materialized spirits are semi-solid matter/ectoplasm/whatever, it's functionally just mass, not any particular chemical composition. So an elemental, whether air, earth, fire or water, is functionally identical to a spirit of man, or a spirit of beasts...only the modified physical stats and inherent powers distinguish them from each other. The book example of that is that a spirit appearing as a cardboard-tube samurai is just as dangerous as one with a sword (assuming the same type and force.)

Exactly why spirits are disruptable by physical means is disputed (and whether or not AP or elemental effects like stick-and-shock affect them per the default rules is heavily disputed.)

A spirit of beasts that appeared as a chicken wouldn't leave anything behind to eat when "killed" - a disrupted spirit returns to its metaplane, all services lost.

You could get power out of your watermill/steam turbine idea, however hyzmarca is correct - a bound spirit is unlikely to ever generate enough power to compensate the monetary cost of the binding materials, while an unbound spirit would be the only unbound spirit you could have at any given moment, and if you go more than a hundred meters or so from it, would effectively be on remote service, forfeiting any additional services you may have.
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Odsh
post Feb 19 2008, 12:58 PM
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QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable @ Jan 4 2008, 01:00 PM) *
and spirits can't be "knocked out" - while they do have both a physical and a stun track, as soon as either of them is filled, they are disrupted (sr4 pg. 177)


Are you sure that they have a stun track? Is that written somewhere?
Being stunned makes sense for living beings, but why would a spirit be stunned? Why would they suffer from shock or sleep-inducing effects?
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FrankTrollman
post Feb 19 2008, 01:42 PM
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QUOTE (Odsh @ Feb 19 2008, 08:58 AM) *
Are you sure that they have a stun track? Is that written somewhere?
Being stunned makes sense for living beings, but why would a spirit be stunned? Why would they suffer from shock or sleep-inducing effects?


Spirits are living beings and certainly have a stun track. Note that Possession/Inhabitation spirits are not disrupted when their stun track is filled; while Materialization spirits are disrupted when their stun track fills. Street Magic, p. 94.

-Frank
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Odsh
post Feb 19 2008, 04:29 PM
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Thanks, I missed that point in Street Magic.
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